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Brainstorming: Piano Roll


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#576 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 05 September 2018 - 17:11

I really do admire your work Raul, even you never programmed that RAS tool for the community  ;) YET A Pianolol will never happen, so get over it!

 

I guess you mean a "native piano roll". I am talking about a piano roll as a tool. This has already happened (several times even). Regarding the RAS, that I have not published anything does not imply that it does not exist.


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#577 joule

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Posted 05 September 2018 - 18:53

I think I've already stated it elsewhere, but.. The main thing that would be lacking is the support of modifier keys. Everything else is doable - including something complex like drag-selecting multiple notes and drag all of them simultaneously to make their duration longer. Other than support for modifier keys, this is a good measure of what consitutes a piano roll worth releasing IMO. Anything else, I wouldn't use.

 

(Your remark about overlapping notes is invalid. This is something that can occur in other DAWs as well, and that the user has to deal with. Sure, the risk is 'higher' if you render something that's already been tracked.)



#578 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 05 September 2018 - 19:57

modifier keys? You refer to being able to do, for example, CTRL + left mouse click. Or simply right click or central for another order? Because I also miss this. And also the "released" of the keyboard keys.

 

I suppose that selecting several notes to lengthen or shorten them would be a typical operation to configure chords.

 

If you make a mesh of frames (buttons) with the ability to insert notes, or delete notes with the same click, it is very quick to change the length of several notes. If there are 3, it would only be 3 clicks. In the end, many operations can be solved with several clicks, and that would avoid having to select an area, and then apply a specific operation on it (lengthen or shorten the notes). I'm just discussing things. I suppose that using blocks (rectangles) to modify the duration of the note is something sacred for many pianorolls (because all DAWs use that). But it does not have to be like that always. Cubes can be used at any time. At all times I am talking about something functional, understandable to the eye (one cube, represent the trigger note, and another cube the note-off, would be the most faithful representation to Renoise).

 

Regarding the overlapping notes. Do other DAWs allow you to play the same note 12 times on the same track of the same instrument? Maybe I'm kind of lost here. I know that other DAW's have problems with layer overlap too. But I do not know if they are so similar to the amount of information that Renoise can show with its 12 note columns. In a pianoroll a note corresponds to a square. You have 120 boxes for 120 notes. With Renoise you have that multiplied by 12. From my point of view, with Renoise there can be many cases where information is lost (vision of the notes) by that "superposition of layers". Other DAW's will also have this problem of overlapping notes, but is it possible that they do not have so many combinations? It is clear that if you use the pianoroll, it is likely that you will not superimpose notes, and if you do, you will see that something strange or different is happening.

 

Regarding selection, drag and other operations, it is something more complex. I have not used it. I have invented the possibility of editing by blocks (groups of lines), for a note column (selected ones) or for all note columns. It is more limited than a selectable area, but for most operations, it works very well, even with cutting, copying and pasting. At all times I have tried to make it as simple and functional as possible, without being influenced by the rest of the horizontal pianorolls. I think it's not about "copying" what other pianorolls offer. It is possible to be something original with what we have.

 

When you have the roll in front, and you realize how easy it is to change the tone of a note, with just a click (nothing of drag), you realize the power of the mouse. Up to now it is the most interesting tool that I have built, because it has allowed me to think how to do certain operations in another way, such as modifying notes without dragging, or a reasonable selection method that is very simple to use.


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:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

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#579 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 05 September 2018 - 20:20

So you still cannot grasp the elementary concept of a tracker as it seems Raul. You are not talking about a tool but just admitting that you are a fool if not able to realize that there is a piano roll in Renoise already. Just switch your monitor 90 degrees and there it is, your infamous vertical piano roll. VOILÀ  :rolleyes:

 

What you are actually talking about the whole time in this thread, is a piano editor for the purpose of laying down chords and harmonies easier. Maybe you can gRASp this by now  :excl: So there we are again, as this is the most urgent new tool one could make, adding "Instant Gratification" to Renoise.

 

But as usual you still want to keep it for yourself instead of lifting up the whole community. Your EGO must be very proud of you !!

 

Please, stop saying nonsense and disrespecting people. If you continue like this, it is possible that you do not last long in these forums. Again!


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#580 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 05 September 2018 - 21:40

Just to locate you a little...

 

...we already have a piano in Renoise which we use to enter notes into the pattern editor or phrases...

The piano that you see in Renoise, does not serve to introduce notes, unfortunately, neither within the pattern editor, nor within the phrases editor. You can use your USB keyboard or MIDI keyboard, but not the mouse on the piano, which is the essence of the pianoroll. That piano of Renoise is basically a note trigger, but it's not good for editing. It is a part of the instrument editor.

 

So what we both might also want is an editor to lay down notes like in a "piano roll" and being able to edit them. 

That's what we were talking about. Before, I just wanted to point out that it is possible to make a tool that is a piano roll shaped editor. I can affirm it, because I have been able to build it (with the peculiarities of my thoughts). Whether it is vertical or horizontal is indifferent, from the point of view of design. That is, if you can make a horizontal tool, you can also make it vertical, at least very similar, and vice versa.

 

For the rest, anyone programer who schedules tools for Renoise, it is usual to have "their personal touch", since it is common for the tool to be for own use. Whether they share it, sell it or not, is another issue. Take a look at the wide variety of existing tools. You will see that all are different according to the programmer, despite using the same code.

 

On how to build a pianoroll tool, is that it is possible to build it in several ways, and control it in several ways, and all are valid as long as they work coherently with their design.. "Pianoroll" is not a unique concept, it has not to be the same in everything, with the same appearance and all that. The good thing about programming is that you can do what you want, not what the great mass of people expect it to be. Precisely because you do not programs for anyone in particular and nor is there any binding contract or anything like that...


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#581 fostercare

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 08:36

Just to locate you a little...

 

The piano that you see in Renoise, does not serve to introduce notes, unfortunately, neither within the pattern editor, nor within the phrases editor. You can use your USB keyboard or MIDI keyboard, but not the mouse on the piano, which is the essence of the pianoroll. That piano of Renoise is basically a note trigger, but it's not good for editing. It is a part of the instrument editor.

 

That's what we were talking about. Before, I just wanted to point out that it is possible to make a tool that is a piano roll shaped editor. I can affirm it, because I have been able to build it (with the peculiarities of my thoughts). Whether it is vertical or horizontal is indifferent, from the point of view of design. That is, if you can make a horizontal tool, you can also make it vertical, at least very similar, and vice versa.

 

For the rest, anyone programer who schedules tools for Renoise, it is usual to have "their personal touch", since it is common for the tool to be for own use. Whether they share it, sell it or not, is another issue. Take a look at the wide variety of existing tools. You will see that all are different according to the programmer, despite using the same code.

 

On how to build a pianoroll tool, is that it is possible to build it in several ways, and control it in several ways, and all are valid as long as they work coherently with their design.. "Pianoroll" is not a unique concept, it has not to be the same in everything, with the same appearance and all that. The good thing about programming is that you can do what you want, not what the great mass of people expect it to be. Precisely because you do not programs for anyone in particular and nor is there any binding contract or anything like that...

 

The piano that we all can see in Renoise does indeed serve to introduce note, unfortunately within the pattern editor, either within the phrase editor. You can either use a usb keyboard or midi keyboard, or as originally purposed the ascii computer keyboard (tracker style). All of those will trigger notes and be recorded in the pattern editor, where you are also able to edit those. Help me out here, if I did a mistake in my logic or not? You are the programmer here.

 

This is why I still admire you and returned to learn more about LUA and tool programming. Whether it is vertical or horizontal is indifferent, as both would work. I was just pointing out that the keyboard (piano) in Renoise is a vertical one and the patterns obviously not. If its so easy to do - why not just give the producer both options here?

 

I love your personal touch Raul (-: Also agree that it is your decision what and when to release something or not. I was just sharing my thoughts on that and nothing more. My programming skills are weak and joule and you are much more experienced as I, as can accept this as a fact and just try to learn and comprehend whatever you guys feed me  :)

 

This is where I totally agree with you. There is a need for a piano editor to edit notes, as this is not really easy done in the pattern editor. Take a look at the FL Studio piano roll and you know what I mean. Also Instant Gratification RAS would still be useful and a great extension to an editor in general, like a full blown MEGA - TOOL (: YET This of course is up to the Pros like joule and you.

 

The conceptual design of RAS does not fail in those vital areas, so must be adhered to unless there's a better way, and I'm afraid we ain't getting a better way unless Taktik designed and implemented it.
 
Thank you
Gentlemen


#582 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 09 September 2018 - 09:01

Edited.


Edited by Raul (ulneiz), 09 September 2018 - 09:50.

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