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Brainstorming: Audio Tracks


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#26 meow

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 19:55

It would make Renoise rise above the 'tracker' status!


...and Zeus himself would step down out of the clouds.

what to do when you reuse the same pattern multiple times in the song?


I agree, unless there was some way of having the audio track not linked to the pattern itself (even though it's still visible in the patt, as a guide).

#27 Rian Diasporah

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 20:28

THISS!!

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#28 sunjammer

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Posted 06 April 2009 - 22:07

What this really boils down to is freezing a track. Renoise is a sampler/sequencer through and through, you can picture a note event triggering a sample having a "wave trail" or "wave cascade" or whatever you want to call it following the note event. The difference is we're not seeing it, and we're not able to rewind in it or shuttle/jog in it.

An "audio track" is a misnomer, since this is what Renoise is doing all the way through anyway. The problem for me is in creating a new track type. I don't think we need that, and i think it nudges close to breaking the GUI "language" of the software.

What i think is a more solid compromise is the idea of a frozen track, which basically does a render of that track, makes it uneditable until you unfreeze it, but syncs playback offset to the line the playhead is currently at. After all we don't really need to be able to scrub, so much as we need to be able to jump 3 minutes into a voice take without having to listen to the whole track over again or cut the take up. I don't think calculating the playback start offset is tough math, knowing where the playhead is within the application.

In this sense, starting an "audio track" is just a case of doing the take, triggering the recorded sample on line 1, and freezing the track. This way we maintain flexibility, and add a sexy performance control tool to other tracks as well.
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#29 Dr. Drips

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 02:48

Interesting thoughts sunjammer.
I recal a player (I think deliplayer or hippoplayer) on the Amiga that just started samples anywhere while dragging the play cursor around.

dispite Renoise functions beyond a player, I think your suggestion to get a freeze function for a track, making it only possible to use samples there, would benefit the ease to use and to implent.
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#30 Thomas Knark

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 13:06

the flexibility of renoise goes against this idea: I mean, what to do when you reuse the same pattern multiple times in the song?


Please explain why this would be a problem compared to now. i mean: you can already have long samples running in to the next pattern...

What this really boils down to is freezing a track. Renoise is a sampler/sequencer through and through, you can picture a note event triggering a sample having a "wave trail" or "wave cascade" or whatever you want to call it following the note event. The difference is we're not seeing it, and we're not able to rewind in it or shuttle/jog in it.

An "audio track" is a misnomer, since this is what Renoise is doing all the way through anyway. The problem for me is in creating a new track type. I don't think we need that, and i think it nudges close to breaking the GUI "language" of the software.

What i think is a more solid compromise is the idea of a frozen track, which basically does a render of that track, makes it uneditable until you unfreeze it, but syncs playback offset to the line the playhead is currently at. After all we don't really need to be able to scrub, so much as we need to be able to jump 3 minutes into a voice take without having to listen to the whole track over again or cut the take up. I don't think calculating the playback start offset is tough math, knowing where the playhead is within the application.

In this sense, starting an "audio track" is just a case of doing the take, triggering the recorded sample on line 1, and freezing the track. This way we maintain flexibility, and add a sexy performance control tool to other tracks as well.


I think your suggestion is a more like a very bad workaround. It would be close to just using EnergyXT as VST. Why are you afraid of getting a new "track" (audiotrack) next to your step tracks? Yes, Renoise is a Sampler/sequencer, So was the Akai MPC 1000 until some independet japanese guys wrote a new OS for the machine, which amongst another hundred cool additions, featured AUDIOTRACKS. It most certainly did not break any GUI language. JJ OS

Edited by Thomas Knark, 07 April 2009 - 13:07.


#31 sunjammer

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 15:56

It wouldn't be like using EnergyXT as VST, because you wouldn't have to buy EnergyXT, or learn a new package to use it. It's really that simple. Hypothetically, if a track is frozen, you can't change its contents (pre or post fx optional), but you can scrub it. This solves the problem, period.

I'm not sure why this is such an either-or situation for some users; I suggest a "workaround" if you will that fits within the existing framework, and adds functionality you can use beyond just dropping a wav in there and shuffling it about a little. What people otherwise seem to want is the ability to go to any position within a song, and have renoise "look back" at preceding notes and calculate playback offsets from there. A friend of mine worked on a tracker ages ago that did exactly this, and from all my use of it, i don't miss that feature whatsoever.

The only times i need "audio tracks" as described in this thread is when i work with vocals or accomp tracks. And the problem in these cases is scrubbing and playback.

Explain to me the difference between an audiotrack and an existing note track that looks back for sample triggers, then explain to me why we need a distinction. Then explain to me how such a distinction benefits the software and the enduser.

If the intent is to actually sequence using samples in this way, Acid-style, might i suggest looking into other software alternatives?

And just to clarify, i am VERY interested in this problem being solved. I've needed this functionality for ages, and i have friends for which it's even more important. I'm just not certain the audiotrack solution is the right way to go with the future in mind.
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#32 entropia

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 16:20

right click on the note -> show as wavefile (it starts rendering and pasting the wave as on the pic at the beginning of the thread)

on the pattern sequencer put the option "duplicate without audiotracks"

could be a solution?
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#33 0l3ks4

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 19:38

I suggest that there be two track types: a) a regular pattern notes track, and b) a continuous track (the one that contains those waves on the first graphic at thread start). This new type of track is not locked to any pattern length, but is stretched along the overall length of the sequence: if the sequence consists of only one pattern, then it is just as long, if two patterns - then two patterns long and so on and so forth.
Length adjustment calculations must only be made on tempo\speed changes, where present, in pattern data.

Now, any sample can be used as a) a regular instrument note, or
b) drag'n'dropped onto a continuous track, where it becomes a continuous wave, and can be split\nudged\glued (probably including other operations pertaining to sample editor) as a usual wavefile.

Edited by 0l3ks4, 07 April 2009 - 19:42.


#34 Thomas Knark

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Posted 07 April 2009 - 23:19

I'm not sure why this is such an either-or situation for some users; I suggest a "workaround" if you will that fits within the existing framework, and adds functionality you can use beyond just dropping a wav in there and shuffling it about a little. What people otherwise seem to want is the ability to go to any position within a song, and have renoise "look back" at preceding notes and calculate playback offsets from there. A friend of mine worked on a tracker ages ago that did exactly this, and from all my use of it, i don't miss that feature whatsoever.

The only times i need "audio tracks" as described in this thread is when i work with vocals or accomp tracks. And the problem in these cases is scrubbing and playback.

Explain to me the difference between an audiotrack and an existing note track that looks back for sample triggers, then explain to me why we need a distinction. Then explain to me how such a distinction benefits the software and the enduser.

If the intent is to actually sequence using samples in this way, Acid-style, might i suggest looking into other software alternatives?

And just to clarify, i am VERY interested in this problem being solved. I've needed this functionality for ages, and i have friends for which it's even more important. I'm just not certain the audiotrack solution is the right way to go with the future in mind.


I dont get you. You´re against audio tracks, but you´re not. You don't miss them whatsoever and you have been needing them for ages...

Im sorry if i totally misunderstand you, but it just seems weird to me that you put so much effort in trying to "talk" this sugestion down to less than it could be.

Is it just the visual thing? like the vertical audiotracks view or what?

one useful thing audiotracks could bring besides the visual aspect and the abillity of starting to play in the middle of the file, would be direct recording (recording directly in to the track). also, it would just make the whole thing alot easier if you could see where the peaks are when starting and stopping at a certain point.

I also like to be able to cut, copy, paste etc. in the sequencer as well.

"If the intent is to actually sequence using samples in this way, Acid-style, might i suggest looking into other software alternatives?"
-This is just plain arrogant and now youre being either-or. I LOVE to track, especially in RENOISE. but i also love sequencing with waves. why cant i have both in the same app?

It´s plain to see that im not the only one longing for thiss....

Edited by Thomas Knark, 07 April 2009 - 23:24.


#35 Ekstrak

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Posted 09 April 2009 - 10:14

Yep +1 on this

#36 sunjammer

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Posted 12 April 2009 - 03:26

I dont get you. You´re against audio tracks, but you´re not. You don't miss them whatsoever and you have been needing them for ages...

Im sorry if i totally misunderstand you, but it just seems weird to me that you put so much effort in trying to "talk" this sugestion down to less than it could be.


I'm not talking it down as though i don't want it implemented. I'm trying to narrow the suggestion down to what's as easy as possible to implement. My point really is that we are extremely close to this already, and i'd like to see the primary problem of playback offset solved in a practical and easily doable way that doesn't require a lot of UI redone/reshuffled, so we might conceivably see this before 2.5 or later.

We can talk this into the CLOUDS if we want, but i think it's selling the dev team short if we think they don't realize what the best UI solution is, and it's not getting us any closer to seeing it implemented ahead of the other stuff that takes precedence. We have literally been asking about this EXACT solution since 1.2 or even before (before my time), vertical wavs and all, but it's obvious that solving the timing issue, mixer view etc, as in features that improve and really nail the core functionality of the package are simply more important to get done. This is a tracker first, and the goal is to make it badass.

I want this. But there are levels of complexity to the problems it solves, and lots of them are already easily worked around. The one that ISN'T easily worked around is playback offset for long samples, and the faster we can get that done the better. If we get that done in a way that also offers CPU performance gains, we've struck two flies. I'm personally more keen on generic tools that improve the overall package than simply smacking in another sequencer style in there, as in the endless pianoroll debate;

I see track freezing as more commonly useful than wave editing as part of the sequencing.

But i guess it's all subjective.

#37 Montini

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 11:33

I have come in my mind to some idea, and accidentally found this thread, which in fact is a better definition of what I was going to propose.

Anyway, what do we really miss in Renoise (and, basically, in all trackers in general)? I think - it is graphical shape of the stuff we are creating. Now the screenshots presented in this thread are very impressive. My thought would be - the creator should be able to switch between "note/volume/effect" and "audio" (or "waveform") track presentations (yes, simultaneous views should be as a preference too). Anyway, I understand that this type of feature isn't so easy to implement.

What I propose - as a temporary (maybe Renoise 2.2) solution: when a track note in the pattern editor is inserted, the following lines in the track are dimmed to some other color - for the length of the sample played. Meaning when you look at the pattern editor, you can always see for how long the note will be audible compared to other notes in other tracks.

It is just a concept, and I understand that this involves several problems connected to that (for example how to act when new note is entered in the same track during the previous note play duration, or how to present VSTi created sound data), but those are the details.

Such solution would implement modest (but very useful) graphical presentation of the sample relations in the whole tune. Of course, the idea of vertical waveform presentation of the track is the obvious follow-up, and would be very appreciated.

Edited by Montini, 16 April 2009 - 13:27.

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#38 sunjammer

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 15:08

The thing, of course, is what about midi or VSTi notes? Boil it down to simply "on/off" and trust that?

There are so many "funky" ways to get the wave display done, such as redrawing the waveform on a per-line basis during playback. So whenever you play a line, the waveform render for that line is redrawn. This is a very "dumb" way to do it, like instruments painting the tracks they play on.. But it would solve the VST and line-in problem conceivably..?

A man can dream ;)

#39 Montini

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 15:23

The thing, of course, is what about midi or VSTi notes? Boil it down to simply "on/off" and trust that?


Maybe some kind of a channel "volume treshhold" value after what it is considered that note is inaudible
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#40 Johann

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 16:35

I see track freezing as more commonly useful than wave editing as part of the sequencing.


I thought about this and I agre: I'd rather have track freezing and the option to display freezed tracks as waveforms.

Track freezing via a background thread, especially! So when you edit stuff in a freezed track, Renoise changes the color of the waveform to show it's not up to date anymore, and then begins to render the track again (in the background, with low priority).

In short: make it ninja enough and track freezing would be just as good or even better than what this thread is about!

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#41 sunjammer

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 16:52

Definitely. It goes better hand in hand with Renoise as a tracker environment.

#42 vV

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Posted 16 April 2009 - 22:47

What I propose - as a temporary (maybe Renoise 2.2) solution: when a track note in the pattern editor is inserted, the following lines in the track are dimmed to some other color - for the length of the sample played. Meaning when you look at the pattern editor, you can always see for how long the note will be audible compared to other notes in other tracks.

It is just a concept, and I understand that this involves several problems connected to that (for example how to act when new note is entered in the same track during the previous note play duration, or how to present VSTi created sound data), but those are the details.

Such solution would implement modest (but very useful) graphical presentation of the sample relations in the whole tune. Of course, the idea of vertical waveform presentation of the track is the obvious follow-up, and would be very appreciated.

With complete and rendered samples, you can do this quite easily, but anticipating on ADSR effects applied to the signal is hard, with VSTI even impossible.
This can only be done if some kind of freeze function is implemented and even if implemented... if you make tiny changes to the wave-form, the visual waveform has to be updated again to match the true output signal....
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#43 Knetter

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Posted 17 April 2009 - 23:03

sunjammer, thats a nice vision! Your description is one that fits the current framework without adding new tracktypes. So users don't have to make a choice between a normal track or an "audio track". The user can - even better - do tricks to the track AND use them with retrofitting play position.

#44 taktik

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 13:23

But what about the FX column, the ability to play around with those large samples as well?

Wouldn't it make more sense if you could "freeze" any track down - use any track as audio track when needed?

#45 BYTE-Smasher

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 13:34

Are you guys proposing the editing or movement of frozen tracks? If so, that goes against the entire concept of frozen tracks. Track freezing is meant as a quick, nondestructive way to reduce processor usage for unruly tracks with many effects or load-heavy instruments. You should be able to unfreeze just as quickly for further pattern editing. Would there even be any benefit in visualizing frozen track waveforms, presuming you couldn't edit them?

If you want to edit the frozen tracks, there should be a "render to audio-track" option that permanently freeze the track to an audio track. Audio tracks should be movable, choppable, and editable as samples. The point of audio tracks is to be able to play long recorded samples, and precisely time small audio chunks.

I'm very confused by the suggestion of merging the two features. It seems like it would only hinder functionality, and confuse the hell out of users.
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#46 taktik

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 13:39

Are you guys proposing the editing or movement of frozen tracks? If so, that goes against the entire concept of frozen tracks. Track freezing is meant as a quick, nondestructive way to reduce processor usage for unruly tracks with many effects or load-heavy instruments. You should be able to unfreeze just as quickly for further pattern editing. Would there even be any benefit in visualizing frozen track waveforms, presuming you couldn't edit them?

If you want to edit the frozen tracks, there should be a "render to audio-track" option that permanently freeze the track to an audio track. Audio tracks should be movable, choppable, and editable as samples. The point of audio tracks is to be able to play long recorded samples, and precisely time small audio chunks.

I'm very confused by the suggestion of merging the two features. It seems like it would only hinder functionality, and confuse the hell out of users.


All that people want here is sample streaming support, that allows you to start/stop playing wherever you want , not a regular sequencer audio track where you click yourself do death with the mouse to chop a beat? Freezing actually also makes this possile.

Manipulating samples is what trackers good at. I don't really understand why you need audio clips then?

#47 BYTE-Smasher

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 13:42

k I just read though some of Sunjammer's ranting, and I understand where he's coming from. So what I'll do is break down why I need audio tracks:

1) Long Samples .... if I'm recording vocal tracks, I want to be able to record these alongside the rest of the tracks, like most multitrack environments... then, if I'm playing back the song from halfway though, I want the audio track to start from that point.

2) Sample preplay .... there are times when I want to be able to have a sample lead up to the actual hit... most often reverse cymbals and such... any sample that builds up. These are very difficult to do with most trackers, Renoise included.

3) The ability to time with dragging/visualization of timing .... audio tracks would pull this off.

(I'll continue this when I get to work)
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#48 BYTE-Smasher

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 17:56

OK I'm back. After reviewing Sunjammer's post, it's clear that his issue with audio tracks is that it falls outside the tracker paradigm. I agree to a point, so I've decided to offer up some features that would give the functionality that I'm hoping audio tracks would give.

If we're gonna attack this as a purely sample based solution, taktik has a valid point in stating that track freezing would solve the really long sample playback problem.

There are other issues in my opinion however. Recording audio is a big one. Many people have multiple inputs on their sound cards, and enjoy recording multiple parts at a time... whether it be in a band, or tweaking knobs on multiple synths. Currently, as far as I know at least, Renoise only supports recording one sample at a time. This has to change. I propose a feature that allows setting up multiple "tracks" for recording, where we can define which inputs we want to use, and have long samples recorded. As this is magical trackerland, there could also be a feature that automagically slices out the silent parts based on a threshold, and saves to separate sample chunks... placing the appropriate samples in the patterns as you record. This way, we could easily move around chunks of the recording at will.

The sample preplay, or predelay, is something that was recently discussed in another thread, and I'd like to bring it up again. We need a feature that allows us to set a fake startpoint for a sample, so that when we have the sample triggered in the pattern, it will start playing sooner than the note that is placed in the pattern. This pre-delay will allow for easy placement of reversed drum hits, and other rushing-type sounds. It will also allow for easy placement of lyrics that contain a pre-bar syllable or two.

The ability to time with dragging/visualization of timing .... something that audio tracks could do, but so could having a mode where we represent notes as blocks. I'm not suggesting a piano roll as much as a mode where, like in Aodix, the notes+noteoffs are grouped visually by a block... yet in our implimentation, the notes would be moveable, changing the position and delay column value magically. This would tie in nicely with pattern zooming as well.

I'm fairly sure the features I've mentioned here are very much more tracker friendly than audiotracks.... and if they were implimented as such, I would have no more desire for such an un-trackerlike feature ;)
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#49 Phate

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 20:23

Nevermind. Byte Smasher knows what's up.

However, would it make sense for frozen tracks to have some sort of waveform display? How will re-arranging patterns work with frozen tracks?

Edited by Phate, 04 May 2009 - 20:33.


#50 Johann

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Posted 04 May 2009 - 20:46

The sample preplay, or predelay, is something that was recently discussed in another thread, and I'd like to bring it up again. We need a feature that allows us to set a fake startpoint for a sample, so that when we have the sample triggered in the pattern, it will start playing sooner than the note that is placed in the pattern.

++

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