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Which Frequency (hz) Is Bad For Ear?


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#1 Trackah123

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 22:45

Which Frequency (Hz) is bad for ear?

Reason i ask this is because i saw an article long time ago about mastering and lowering certain frequencies (like mid range ones and maybe other ones) because if set too high its bad for your ear when played out loud for example like on a tranceparty. :walkman:
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#2 David Louis Paul

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 23:18

Which Frequency (Hz) is bad for ear?

Reason i ask this is because i saw an article long time ago about mastering and lowering certain frequencies (like mid range ones and maybe other ones) because if set too high its bad for your ear when played out loud for example like on a tranceparty. :walkman:


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#3 mr_mark_dollin

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Posted 30 October 2009 - 23:43

Any frequency if loud enough will damage.

See here: http://en.wikipedia....r–Munson_curves
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#4 David Louis Paul

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 00:28

Any frequency if loud enough will damage.

See here: http://en.wikipedia....r–Munson_curves


I think what he means where does the human ear and hearing peak at. I can handle 150db of 30hz fine, but not at 3k.

#5 basil

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 00:58

2.8-3k bugs me .. dunno why.
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#6 David Louis Paul

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 01:11

2.8-3k bugs me .. dunno why.


...hence my first post, because that is the most responsive section of human hearing.

#7 Trackah123

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 02:31

2.8 , 3k thx..

Ok well let me put it in a different way.

what is still the worst frequency (hz) for your ears when its not so loud?
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#8 dblue

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 03:28

I can handle 150db of 30hz fine, but not at 3k.

140dB is when sounds can easily cause major damage to your hearing, which would be equivalent to a gunshot at close range, or standing near to a jet engine. Low frequency sounds at this amplitude are especially damaging, because they carry more energy. If you were to listen to 30hz at 150dB, you'd probably destroy your hearing quite quickly.

http://www.abelard.org/hear/hear.php

Edited by dblue, 31 October 2009 - 03:29.


#9 vV

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 14:29

Low frequency sounds at this amplitude are especially damaging, because they carry more energy. If you were to listen to 30hz at 150dB, you'd probably destroy your hearing quite quickly.

And easily as low frequencies are usually not painful or irritating, in which high frequencies can be because you usually automatically respond to loud high frequencies. So the lower frequencies are dangerous for more less obvious reasons.
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#10 David Louis Paul

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 19:23

140dB is when sounds can easily cause major damage to your hearing, which would be equivalent to a gunshot at close range, or standing near to a jet engine. Low frequency sounds at this amplitude are especially damaging, because they carry more energy. If you were to listen to 30hz at 150dB, you'd probably destroy your hearing quite quickly.

http://www.abelard.org/hear/hear.php


Well, I own two vehicles, one max's out at 158db and the other 168db, and I can handle sub 155 fine (all sub 60hz), and my hearing is still spot on, obviously or I wouldnt be able to do what I do.

Like I said, our ear follows a curve, and our hearing is -70db down from 3k to 20hz, due to our ears not having a natural resonance at those frequencies.

Edited by David Louis Paul, 31 October 2009 - 19:30.


#11 dblue

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 20:08

Well, I own two vehicles, one max's out at 158db and the other 168db


I'm still quite skeptical, but I suppose it's possible that you actually enter these cars into sound competitions? Are your cars ridiculously customised bass machines?

If not, then I have to wonder how exactly did you measure the sound levels, because what you're saying here is that your car is capable of Guinness world record breaking levels.



Here's an example of 159dB:
PYnYg_G6AZ8

Does your 158dB car do this?


http://en.wikipedia..../DB_drag_racing

According to this article:

Sound Pressure Level (SPL) of 155 dB can be reached, and it is not unheard of to see 160+ dB as well.


The current loudest car has been recorded at 180.5 dB.
For comparison:
* 163 dB—Windows break [2]
* 150 dB—Jet engine at 30 m [3]
* 130 dB—Threshold of pain; train horn at 10 m


During a competition, the vehicle must be driven 20 feet. Nobody is allowed to sit in the vehicle during trials because injury would be certain.



After looking through various sources, I find that they all say pretty much the same thing - sound at these kind of levels is extremely damaging.

It doesn't really matter what frequencies we can or can't hear, the damaging thing is the huge pressure waves smashing into your ear drums.

Edited by dblue, 31 October 2009 - 20:11.


#12 vV

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 20:57

Well, we all mention the sound pressure and frequency rate, but there is also an amount of time that you can hold that pressure before the damage (or deteriorate process) starts to initialize.
The soundpressure level removes the frequency level that should be watched for:

http://www.hearinglo...print.php?p=170
http://www.soundadvi...estory/san1.htm
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#13 David Louis Paul

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 21:11

Yes, Ive competed in UK and European SPL contests for over 10 years. The 168.8 one was a Euro record holder for a year, 2 subs.

181 is the current world record, a whole galaxy away from 168, and a millenia away from 158.

Also, the hair trick is nothing to do with volume, that's because she is sitting directly in front of the port of the enclosure, you can pull that off way down to about 130db if you select the resonant frequency of the enclosure/subwoofer setup.

Edited by David Louis Paul, 31 October 2009 - 21:27.


#14 dblue

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 21:21

Yes, Ive competed in UK and European SPL contests for over 10 years. The 168.8 one was a Euro record holder for a year, 2 subs.

Hahahah. Well ok then! We probably could have saved a bit of time by getting to this sooner. :) :panic:

I still find it quite interesting that you manage to tolerate such extreme levels without any serious negative effects. Do you have super-human ear drums or something? :D

#15 David Louis Paul

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 21:29

Hahahah. Well ok then! We probably could have saved a bit of time by getting to this sooner. :) :panic:

I still find it quite interesting that you manage to tolerate such extreme levels without any serious negative effects. Do you have super-human ear drums or something? :D


Its loud 'physically' as in the sheer pressure and air movement, but its not actually agravating the ear drums -tho to be honest It can tickle sometimes, but its not 'pain' as associated with high frequencies.

#16 dblue

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Posted 31 October 2009 - 21:50

to be honest It can tickle sometimes

Well, now I know where I'm going next time I need to sound check some dancefloor tunes :D :w00t: Although Newcastle to Colchester is a bit of a journey...

#17 Trackah123

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 19:16

Recently bought the Behringer HPS5000 monitor headphones.. they have good bass but awful mid/high range sound (hurts my ears almost) with everything i play and very uncomfortable. so im sending them back.

Might try the Sennheiser EH-350 ones.
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#18 00.1

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Posted 01 November 2009 - 23:46

Well, we all mention the sound pressure and frequency rate, but there is also an amount of time that you can hold that pressure before the damage (or deteriorate process) starts to initialize.
The soundpressure level removes the frequency level that should be watched for:

http://www.hearinglo...print.php?p=170
http://www.soundadvi...estory/san1.htm

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hyperacusis

I remember Noisuf-X had either an album or track called tinnitus, it was that memory I had to recall in order to name what the hell I was constantly hearing in my ears. Thanks for the links.. I never had any real proper education on sound, just picked it up over the years and the dangers of it wasn't really a concern until the symptoms poped up. As of late though, I listen at low volumes since there are days or nights where I listen for about 4 to 6 and sometimes up to 8 hours of sound. Breaks are nice.

Edited by 00.1, 02 November 2009 - 00:18.

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#19 Corticyte

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 00:10

Wikipedia says:

"Amplification of sound by the pinna, tympanic membrane and middle ear causes an increase in level of about 10 to 15 dB in a frequency range of 1.5 kHz to 7 kHz"

That's some serious amplification!

Its loud 'physically' as in the sheer pressure and air movement, but its not actually agravating the ear drums -tho to be honest It can tickle sometimes, but its not 'pain' as associated with high frequencies.


As for insane volumes, the loudest SPL you can have on Earth is 194dB, because the troughs of the wave will a total vacuum!

Cars make it easier to produce very high SPLs because they represent a very small volume of air for the speakers to move. But take the car soundsystem out of the car and it would be very underwhelming!

Professional loudspeakers are generally a lot more sensitive and take advantage of techniques such as horn loading. If you put two of these in your car you'd probably be killed: http://www.voidaudio...etail.asp?id=76

:lol:

While we're on the subject of loud noises, here's the soundsystem I run with my mate:

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139dB @ 50Hz :D

#20 00.1

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 00:29

No wonder some use music as a weapon.. regarding the recent Guantanamo Bay Naval Base music torture. I'm sure such techniques were used in the past, I guess now we just have it variety.

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#21 A Challenger Appears!

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 02:32

Wait.....wut??? I must be missing something, hearing damage begins at prolonged exposure to 80db.

#22 David Louis Paul

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 02:45

Cars make it easier to produce very high SPLs because they represent a very small volume of air for the speakers to move. But take the car soundsystem out of the car and it would be very underwhelming!

Professional loudspeakers are generally a lot more sensitive and take advantage of techniques such as horn loading. If you put two of these in your car you'd probably be killed: http://www.voidaudio...etail.asp?id=76



No offence, but this is where you are way off base.

Sensitivity of a loudspeaker has nothing to do with maximum SPL output - that is all down to power handling and total peak to peak excursion. You can have an efficient PA driver with 99db sensitivity @ 1w verses a high power car audio driver which has say a lower 93db sensitivity, but the difference is the car audio driver can have over 4 times the excursion - PA drivers are always limited on Xmax(coil out of magnetic gap excursion) and the drivers I have instance have quad voice coils, and can handle over 10,000w RMS. You do not find this level of specification for a single driver in the professional audio industry.

Also 'sensitivity' is measured as an average. PA drivers always come out with a higher average due to the drivers having a higher free air resonant frequency and can produce more higher bass and even lower vocal frequencies, hence more sound, higher average sensitivity. Car audio drivers for pure sub bass application have much lower free air resonance (fs) around 20-30hz, heavier motor structure, kevlar wound cones, multiple coil assemblies etc which lower the higher frequency sound output - but it is irrelevant as you would be filtering these frequencies off anyway when used for the application intended.

As for 'if you took the car audio system out of the car it would be very underwhelming' - again, the current world record holder vehicle has over 100,000W RMS. When you open the doors on this you still have way over 160db coming out of the vehicle. Again no PA system has ever hit these levels.

You talk of horn loaded enclosures, but the whole vehicle acts as completely that. The moment you open the doors, the whole vehicle is a horn loaded design. You have a wall of subs, inside an enclosure (the car) and the doors act as the horn exit/vent/port. There are vehicles out there, that can run over 150db, even at very low frequencies such as 20hz - again, PA systems, drivers and the horn designs they use don't have the ability to drop this low and handle the power.

Again, in comparison, that Void PA enclosure you linked to runs 2 x 18" subwoofers, can only handle 2800w and is made out of 18mm plywood and max's out at 138db. In the Golf I have two 15" subs, in a horn design, running 20,000RMS, in a 50mm thick birch ply enclosure and this makes 168.8db.

168.8 db is 1024 times louder than 138db, to put it into context.

Edited by David Louis Paul, 02 November 2009 - 16:22.


#23 David Louis Paul

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 03:13

Wait.....wut??? I must be missing something, hearing damage begins at prolonged exposure to 80db.


Well think about this. On an speaker, there is a sensitivity specification, normally X db@1w/1m

Most home audio speaker are between 90 and 100db sensitivity, if fed with 1 Watt of power, measured from a meter away.

So going by that statement you quoted, if you turned your hifi on, and only ran 1w to each speaker, we would be experiencing hearing damage.

Honestly, most of the the stuff you read about sound and audio is complete twaddle. :)

#24 A Challenger Appears!

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 10:19

So going by that statement you quoted


I'm sorry, I wasn't quoting anything in particular. My comment was toward the discussion of the loudness of playback volumes and not so much to Trackah123 (just reinforcing what Foo?, vV and dblue were saying).

Plus I'm just anal about things like this for safety reasons. I use to work at a music theater and would freak out if the average would rise above 90 dB.

Well think about this. On an speaker, there is a sensitivity specification, normally X db@1w/1m

Most home audio speaker are between 90 and 100db sensitivity, if fed with 1 Watt of power, measured from a meter away.


I wasn't talking about the efficiency or sensitivity of a speaker. I totally believe you when you say you can get SPL levels of that magnitude. I not doubting that at all.
How that correlates to dB SPL levels and the dangers are beyond me.
You will need to explain this a little more to me if I'm mistaking but the end SPL is the end SPL and no matter how many watts your pumping into it it will still damage some ones hearing. I mean is 136 dB @ 1000w/1m safer then 136 dB @1w/1m?


Honestly, most of the the stuff you read about sound and audio is complete twaddle.


I don't know about that. The Principia hold up pretty well so I don't see why the general consensus of what is written in audio and sound books wouldn't
(If you were referring to SPL, Fletcher Munson curve,etc. ).
Now if your talking about how good a product is, I TOTALLY agree. :)


To Trackah123:

Your ears will be able to tell you. If its annoying reduce it, if its lacking boost it. That's why we have EQ's that let you adjust the frequency. If just cutting 3k was acceptable then you could just use the 3 k reduction plug-in, that's why we generally only roll off 20 Hz and below and around 20 kHz and above as standard practice. A specific freq. isn't dangerous as long as its at a comfortable level, but all freq. are dangerous if to loud. Also the apparent frequency balance is less apparent when monitoring at levels of 85 dB SPL. If you mixed a tune at lets say 110 dB SPL and played it back lower it would be bass and treble shy (vise versa). As a side-note the louder you listen the more detuned the original signal becomes.

Tips:

Take 15 min. breaks from monitoring every couple of hours or so.

To each there own but if your stuck with high volume levels for a long time above 80-90 dB wear earplugs.

Mix on monitors that have as flat of a freq. response as possible.

#25 Trackah123

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 13:01

Ok thanx. Ill remember the 3k one.

But nobody answered my second question. If the volume is low (not loud) which Hz frequency would be still the worst for human ears? forget about dB and loudness wars, im purely talking about 20 - 20000 Hz. which is the worst Hz even on low volume? :walkman:

Edited by Trackah123, 02 November 2009 - 13:05.

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