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Network Tracking In Renoise


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#1 tenda

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 03:20

Hey,

I think it's possible to make a 3rd party program for Renoise which enables a some sort of network tracking capabilities.

It would have features such as:

1. Setup a network with several computers connected to it
2. Send XML data to all computers in network such as pattern data
3. Send DSP chains
4. Send .XRNI
5. Network users will get a list of previously sent data and copy XML to clipboard
6. Copy sent XNRI and DSP chains to chosen directory
7. Paste XML data in Renoise and load DSP chains and .XRNI

Sequencing is a bit problematic since it's not done by XML data via clipboard?

What do you think about this kind of a program?

Any suggestions for it?

#2 danoise

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 12:34

I think it's a great idea. Trackers have always been about collab/sharing stuff. But forget about the clipboard copy/paste stuff, nobody will bother doing that, you'll loose the overview etc.

Instead, it could be made to work as a service, completely transparent and in realtime. This would simply take it to the next level. But anyone with the wish to start developing something like this should probably wait for the Renoise scripting API to become available. Scripted network access has already been tested as a proof of concept, and the rest is a matter of updating song data, for which there's full access.

However, this is only the client part. From a technical viewpoint, it would probably be a good idea to have a central server on the internet (a "tracker" :-) that will monitor all the clients. This would reduce the traffic needed to have everybody synced to each other, and help to identify and resolve conflicts between versions.
I'm thinking about the challenges that every other piece of realtime collaboration software has to address, stuff like resolving conflicting user edits, ability to rollback to a previous version if someone deletes the whole project etc.

Wikipedia has an article which describe this dilemma:
http://en.wikipedia....eal-time_editor

All in all, I would say that this is a very interesting idea, but also a very complex one to realize.

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#3 Zed

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 14:18

Yeah, full sync would be cool. I'm making the drums, the guy's doing his solo. Renoise's showing activity in patterns, instruments, making logs...

#4 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 15:10

will the forthcoming 'osc' integration be able to do this ?

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#5 Conner_Bw

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 15:41

will the forthcoming 'osc' integration be able to do this ?


This is a very abstract statement... The whole scripting and OSC hype is getting a bit on my nerves. An equivalent statement would be:

Can C++ do this?

The answer is yes, C++ can do it. But, who will do the work and how long will it take?

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#6 Arboreal

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 16:20

Under Linux with netjack, you can synchronize two Renoise session across network. Of course it just transmits audio and midi (a2jmidi?).
I've managed to use it with a friend with Seq24 and Puredata and it works pretty well.

http://netjack.sourceforge.net/
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#7 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 16:35

This is a very abstract statement... The whole scripting and OSC hype is getting a bit on my nerves. An equivalent statement would be:

Can C++ do this?

The answer is yes, C++ can do it. But, who will do the work and how long will it take?


I am just asking cause I don't know to much about the osc thing ...and was wondering
Thx for letting me getting on yr nerves :wacko:

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#8 Conner_Bw

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Posted 09 January 2010 - 16:38

I am just asking cause I don't know to much about the osc thing ...and was wondering
Thx for letting me getting on yr nerves :wacko:


Sorry, it's not you in particular. There's just a lot of hype behind scripting and OSC without much personal research on what that means.

OSC is like MIDI over HTTP. Scripting is like programming. Combine both and you can do whatever you want. But, that doesn't mean it's simple. It's programming for the user. The onus is on the user here.

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#9 tenda

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Posted 14 January 2010 - 20:44

Hey,

I think it's possible to make a 3rd party program for Renoise which enables a some sort of network tracking capabilities.

It would have features such as:

1. Setup a network with several computers connected to it
2. Send XML data to all computers in network such as pattern data
3. Send DSP chains
4. Send .XRNI
5. Network users will get a list of previously sent data and copy XML to clipboard
6. Copy sent XNRI and DSP chains to chosen directory
7. Paste XML data in Renoise and load DSP chains and .XRNI

Sequencing is a bit problematic since it's not done by XML data via clipboard?

What do you think about this kind of a program?

Any suggestions for it?


Actually now that i've checked renoise 2.1, it seems like XRNI and DSP chains are also copied to clipboard which makes the whole network support program a lot easier to code.

A few features popped into my mind:
- Exchange and merge .XRNS together (merge with existing 3rd party software) or do it with this program
- XML packets sent are zipped
- Exchange used VST and VSTi and save them into desired folder
- The program would show channel numbers so you paste the data in correct places.

I have no licence for 2.5, so i don't know about pattern matrix...

Of course a realtime network support implemented straight into renoise would be more handy. Above mentioned features plus:
- you could lock what you are doing, so no one could change your track.
- See other composers' cursors and mouse pointers in different colour
- see what changes the other people are doing and
- you could merge the changes together and both would have the same XRNS all the time.

#10 datassette

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 00:36

Tortoise SVN? :lol:

#11 Transcender

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 12:08

This thread is giving me some ideas and a question pops up...

I'd like to connect two PC computers running WinXP and send the xml clipboards back and forth between them. What would be the best solution for that purpose? None of the computers are connected to the Internet, so I can't use MSN/ICQ or similar chat softwares to send the clipboard text data.

Edited by Transcender, 15 January 2010 - 12:15.

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#12 tenda

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 18:55

This thread is giving me some ideas and a question pops up...

I'd like to connect two PC computers running WinXP and send the xml clipboards back and forth between them. What would be the best solution for that purpose? None of the computers are connected to the Internet, so I can't use MSN/ICQ or similar chat softwares to send the clipboard text data.


This is exactly how the program would be like, but it would state which instrument number is copied on clipboard, which track is on clipboard etc. Also it would send clipboard data to clients zipped. The program would be made deliberately for Renoise so it's possible to invent specific features.

#13 radian

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 19:23

I'd like to connect two PC computers running WinXP and send the xml clipboards back and forth between them. What would be the best solution for that purpose? None of the computers are connected to the Internet


Useful sounding tools linked on vvvv's website, I haven't tried either yet though.

Input Director:
Input Director is a Windows application that lets you control multiple Windows systems using the keyboard/mouse attached to one computer. [...] Input Director also supports a "shared" clipboard, in which you can copy data onto the clipboard on one system, transition across to another and paste.

Beyond Copy:
BeyondCopy is a LAN hosts clipboard synchronism tool. BeyondCopy allows you to copy something in one computer, and paste it in another computer directly.

#14 choice

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 22:27

Useful sounding tools linked on vvvv's website, I haven't tried either yet though.

Input Director:
Input Director is a Windows application that lets you control multiple Windows systems using the keyboard/mouse attached to one computer. [...] Input Director also supports a "shared" clipboard, in which you can copy data onto the clipboard on one system, transition across to another and paste.

Beyond Copy:
BeyondCopy is a LAN hosts clipboard synchronism tool. BeyondCopy allows you to copy something in one computer, and paste it in another computer directly.

I've never used those but
They seem to be very similar to Synergy:
http://synergy2.sourceforge.net/

Synergy lets you easily share a single mouse and keyboard between multiple computers with different operating systems, each with its own display, without special hardware. It's intended for users with multiple computers on their desk since each system uses its own monitor(s).

Redirecting the mouse and keyboard is as simple as moving the mouse off the edge of your screen. Synergy also merges the clipboards of all the systems into one, allowing cut-and-paste between systems. Furthermore, it synchronizes screen savers so they all start and stop together and, if screen locking is enabled, only one screen requires a password to unlock them all.



It was a little tricky to setup at first a couple years ago, but once it is, it works rather flawlessly across all of the supported Os's: OSX,Linux,Windows.

#15 choice

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Posted 15 January 2010 - 22:32

I may have added my input on this idea to the wrong thread:

http://www.renoise.c...ndpost&p=180777

Allowing the users of the XRNS to use their own instruments, essentially creating multitudes of different songs. Which I see it as promising in itself.

Tracks themselves could be locked to specific users, control of the global mix may need to be locally lockable. Instructions like global song settings, dsp chains+parameters and pattern data freely sent in -pseudo-realtime similar to chatting.

some brainstorming for the instrument swapping.
Suggestions for a instrument swap to work upon network.

the 1st gen instrument user would need to okay the send of the instrument, the instrument containing the sample + instrument instructions and a unique identifier for sample slot and no confusion with sample + instruction versions.

this would be for testing samples locally before transmitting them to 2nd gen users. connection speed & user discretion is inherently implied for this situation as the instrument would need to be verified and approved by users.

For possible instrument editing.

-real-time verbose updates on users actions

All Users editing the instrument, what was 2nd gen instrument user instructions becomes 1st gen instructions to be sent to 2nd gen users.


Taking all this into account, a method for direction & cooperation or even topic of the song could be disregarded or implemented.

-Also, charts/stats for user interaction with songs could be privately or publicly viewed on the server, as it is logged.


It gets interesting with the server as the server also could be having a copy of renoise. possibility for constant rendering of blocks and thus playing them in the appropriate sequence as the song revolves. playing either non-realtime through js or streaming This song based on overall user approvals of the user sent data types.



#16 Transcender

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Posted 16 January 2010 - 22:04

Input Director:
Beyond Copy:

Good suggestions, I'll check them out. Thanks.
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#17 k-rai

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 00:15

Hey guys,

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Impulse Tracker in this thread.
I was just thinking about how it'd be nice to be able to work on a remix w/ my band mate simultaneously by networking Renoise.
This was fairly easily done w/ Impulse Tracker, it might of actually simply been a built in feature that you enabled.
I figured, well maybe it's already in Renoise and w/ a quick search came across this forum post.
Maybe the programmers that want to make this happen should look into the method used in Impulse Tracker.
I came upon Renoise after years of using Impulse, it was kinda like the IT3 that never was and the answer everyone was waiting for in order to take tracking to the next level. With these Renoise having these roots in the ol DOS program, shouldn't one be able to recreate the same networking ability if it's already been done before?

Cheers!
K-Rai

Edited by k-rai, 11 November 2012 - 00:17.


#18 vV

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:36

Hey guys,

I'm surprised no one has mentioned Impulse Tracker in this thread.


I can't recall what was actually usable about the network driver from Impulse Tracker, since it was IPX which is only useful in LAN environments.
Nevertheless, it was a great effort when i got it with 2.15, but i was more than happy with the wav exporter back then (and the filter envelopes).
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#19 ghostwerk

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 02:40

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