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#26 fladd

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 14:31

Wow, no DSP, no access to sample level. Seems that the scripting will not be as cool as everyone thought. (I read in some review that it might enable users to do more stuff than Max for Live does, but apparently this will not be the case at all).

Well, yes, it is true that a lot can be done with simple waveforms and the sampler. But not everything. A real synth with wavetable synthesis, several oscillators, arpeggiator, unison. Also, for brief sounds the sampler works quite well, but for longer ones, like strings or pads, it doesn't.

I just hate having a Windows around, just to make some music!!!


For now using VST works just fine, doesn't? This way you can also create synths that are not just for Renoise...


You do realize though that the topic of this thread is about the absence of VSTi on Linux, right? :-)

fladd

Edited by fladd, 06 April 2010 - 14:32.


#27 taktik

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 14:40

You do realize though that the topic of this thread is about the absence of VSTi on Linux, right? :-)


Yes, but the problem seems to be that there are very few "choose any plugin architecture here" for Linux in general?
Adding LV2 support, DSSI or doing this with Renoise internal scripts, would not change this.

#28 jk123

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 14:49

As it hasn't been mentioned yet: I'm hacking on a VSTi softsynth for Linux from time to time. (Native VSTi, no Wine required!) Current version is 0.2, you can download binaries+source at http://tumbetoene.tuxfamily.org/ . I'm developing other plugins too, so I'd recommend you subscribe the low-volume RSS/Atom feed to be notified when something is released.


The real problem with VST on Linux is the license. The VST SDK license prohibits redistributing it, while the GPL, which is commonly used on Linux, *requires* that all source code for any GPL-ed program is made available without restriction. This makes the VST SDK a pain to use together with open source software.

Some kind of workaround would be to reverse engineer the VST interface and create something that's open source and binary-compatible. The VST SDK forbids reverse engineering, but if we don't use the SDK, we don't have to agree to its terms, so as far as I can tell, such a reverse-engineered VST-ish thing would be legal. It has been done for the host side already (search for Vestige), but so far, I haven't found anyone who would join me in creating the plugin part.

Edited by jk123, 06 April 2010 - 14:59.


#29 fladd

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Posted 07 April 2010 - 10:18

As it hasn't been mentioned yet: I'm hacking on a VSTi softsynth for Linux from time to time. (Native VSTi, no Wine required!) Current version is 0.2, you can download binaries+source at http://tumbetoene.tuxfamily.org/ . I'm developing other plugins too, so I'd recommend you subscribe the low-volume RSS/Atom feed to be notified when something is released.


The real problem with VST on Linux is the license. The VST SDK license prohibits redistributing it, while the GPL, which is commonly used on Linux, *requires* that all source code for any GPL-ed program is made available without restriction. This makes the VST SDK a pain to use together with open source software.

Some kind of workaround would be to reverse engineer the VST interface and create something that's open source and binary-compatible. The VST SDK forbids reverse engineering, but if we don't use the SDK, we don't have to agree to its terms, so as far as I can tell, such a reverse-engineered VST-ish thing would be legal. It has been done for the host side already (search for Vestige), but so far, I haven't found anyone who would join me in creating the plugin part.


Looks nice! Good to see people working on Linux instruments.

About the licensing: Yes, that is probplematic of course. You could, instead of GPL, use a less restrictive Open Source license. Or make your own license :-)

fladd

#30 kuniklo

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 17:42

Too bad! Under Linux you really have to have everything in the box. There are no real VSTi out there and using external synths is a strange workflow.

The Loomer synths linked above work great in Linux as does DiscoDSP's Discovery. They're fairly straightforward synths but you can do a lot with them.

I also don't find the workflow with external synths in Renoise that strange. I just record patterns as loops the same way I would in Live.

#31 fladd

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Posted 13 April 2010 - 23:14

As it hasn't been mentioned yet: I'm hacking on a VSTi softsynth for Linux from time to time. (Native VSTi, no Wine required!) Current version is 0.2, you can download binaries+source at http://tumbetoene.tuxfamily.org/ . I'm developing other plugins too, so I'd recommend you subscribe the low-volume RSS/Atom feed to be notified when something is released.


The real problem with VST on Linux is the license. The VST SDK license prohibits redistributing it, while the GPL, which is commonly used on Linux, *requires* that all source code for any GPL-ed program is made available without restriction. This makes the VST SDK a pain to use together with open source software.

Some kind of workaround would be to reverse engineer the VST interface and create something that's open source and binary-compatible. The VST SDK forbids reverse engineering, but if we don't use the SDK, we don't have to agree to its terms, so as far as I can tell, such a reverse-engineered VST-ish thing would be legal. It has been done for the host side already (search for Vestige), but so far, I haven't found anyone who would join me in creating the plugin part.


I was testing your synth today, and immediately ran into the problem of it steeling focus and thus preventing me from playing it with the keyboard.

fladd

#32 fladd

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 01:43

Exactly. Very unlikely.

For now using VST works just fine, doesn't? This way you can also create synths that are not just for Renoise...


Still not sure about this, I could imagine a native version being better adopted by users than having to deal with Steinberg SDKs. Also, internal synths/scripts could be distributed with the songs! VSTi cannot.

Yes, but the problem seems to be that there are very few "choose any plugin architecture here" for Linux in general?
Adding LV2 support, DSSI or doing this with Renoise internal scripts, would not change this.


Yes, that is true, but again, one big problem here is the Steinberg SDK (the problem is a different one though, as mentioned by sk123). LV2 or DSSI support would help here I think!

fladd

Edited by fladd, 14 April 2010 - 01:46.


#33 taktik

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 09:44

Yes, the VST SDK license issues are indeed a problem.

We are taking a look into DSSI now. LV2 unfortunately puzzles us with some technical problems (this turtle RDF stuff adds a lot of dependencies).
DSSI seems not to be that popular compared to LV2, but it still would useful to have for a start?

#34 sji

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 12:25

Yes, the VST SDK license issues are indeed a problem.

We are taking a look into DSSI now. LV2 unfortunately puzzles us with some technical problems (this turtle RDF stuff adds a lot of dependencies).
DSSI seems not to be that popular compared to LV2, but it still would useful to have for a start?



DSSI would be useful. There's a small number of interesting synths, and the calf instruments are also available in DSSI.
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#35 Instant

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 13:48

DSSI seems not to be that popular compared to LV2, but it still would useful to have for a start?


Yes, at least it's got my vote, provided that the implementation is not too complicated and doesn't add too much bloat.

#36 Djeroek

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 14:25

Wouldn't a waveform generator (sine, square, triangle, pulse etc) available in Renoises Track dsp tab be a solution for Linux users?

Have it controllable with the keyboard through a vst fx alias in the 'vst instrument properties' selection window. This way users can create their own additive/subtractive instrument chains with lfo's, filters and what not.

A more powerfull instrument editor then we currently have, would omit the need for a native wavetable'esque synth, maybe?

#37 slippycurb

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 15:23

@ jonas.........something a bit like quikquak's glass viper? this is a good idea.
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#38 fladd

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Posted 14 April 2010 - 22:29

Wouldn't a waveform generator (sine, square, triangle, pulse etc) available in Renoises Track dsp tab be a solution for Linux users?

Have it controllable with the keyboard through a vst fx alias in the 'vst instrument properties' selection window. This way users can create their own additive/subtractive instrument chains with lfo's, filters and what not.

A more powerfull instrument editor then we currently have, would omit the need for a native wavetable'esque synth, maybe?


Well, yes, that would give us a monophonic synth at least.

fladd

#39 supersole

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Posted 16 April 2010 - 22:11

Oh, this is the ideal moment for a shameless plug!! B)

I've been working on a simple monophonic synth for Linux. It's available now:
http://soledadpenade...jects/sorollet/

Right now it's got sine, triangle, square and saw generators. Two oscillators (but monophonic!) can be combined (added, multiplied, divided!). It's also got a noise generator. And envelopes.

Here's a sample song:


I have compiled a version for x86, 32bit, which is what Renoise is compiled against (the 64 bit version wouldn't work with Renoise). It's available in the downloads page:

http://github.com/so...ollet/downloads

The source is here just in case you want to hack it or improve it (shouldn't be too complicated, since it's super basic!!):
http://github.com/sole/sorollet

I would love some feedback, but make sure to read the 'to do' list to know what I have already on mind! :w00t:

Ok... done with the plug! :D

Hope you like the synth ^_^

Edited by supersole, 16 April 2010 - 22:11.

renoise + linux + edirol pcrm50 + edirol ma-7a + yamaha pacifica + whatnot...

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#40 jk123

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Posted 08 May 2010 - 15:57

I was testing your synth today, and immediately ran into the problem of it steeling focus and thus preventing me from playing it with the keyboard.

fladd


The VST does get focus when you open the editor. If you want to play it with the keyboard, you can click on the Renoise window after opening the editor. Does that help?

I thought grabbing focus is the expected behavior when you open a new window, but I see it could be kind of annoying. Are there other synth plugins that do this differently?


@supersole: Nice stuff. I like the demo song :D
I read you're doing additive synthesis... I'm currently just generating naive tri/saw/square waveforms, with lots of aliasing of course (which doesn't matter that much when I run it through the heavy bandpass filtering)... Thinking about using MinBLEPs or oversampling later.
Have you checked JUCE for the GUI? Quite a nice library, supports VST, is cross-platform, GPL, can be used to create VST + standalone app from the same code...

Oh, and about your VST SDK patch: You can just do something like
#if defined(__GNUC__)
 #define __cdecl
#endif
before including the VST headers. Then you won't need the patch.

Edited by jk123, 08 May 2010 - 16:14.


#41 fladd

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Posted 08 May 2010 - 16:16

Well, yes, that would give us a monophonic synth at least.

fladd


No, that was not what I meant :-) Sorry. What I meant was that this would give us a one oscillator synth.

On a different note: I was checking out some VST Linux plugins today and most of them are extremely buggy (the worst is zynaddsubfx). This is a shame, I bought Renoise to make music on Linux, but now I don't have instruments :-(

fladd

#42 sji

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 01:17

No, that was not what I meant :-) Sorry. What I meant was that this would give us a one oscillator synth.

On a different note: I was checking out some VST Linux plugins today and most of them are extremely buggy (the worst is zynaddsubfx). This is a shame, I bought Renoise to make music on Linux, but now I don't have instruments :-(

fladd



visit www.loomer.co.uk and see their stuff :) and the mda plugins are quite nice too.
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#43 fladd

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 03:22

Thanks. Loomer is quite expensive. MDA plugins are nice, though, I have them already. But I was looking for more complex synths, something to make proper leads and pads.

fladd

#44 pirate utopia

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Posted 09 May 2010 - 06:56

The Loomer synths linked above work great in Linux as does DiscoDSP's Discovery. They're fairly straightforward synths but you can do a lot with them.


Yeah, Discovery is cool, and works natively in Linux, the sampler Highlife too. They are from the company created by Arguru (NoiseTrekker, ancestor of Renoise)
http://www.discodsp.com/discovery/

You have a RT kernel installed? It is recommended the one in AV Linux.

#45 werock

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Posted 10 May 2010 - 10:50

I haven't tried them yet, but the guy behind the new KXStudio distro has a PPA with loads of Linux VST's:

https://launchpad.ne... archive/lucid/

#46 Radek

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 00:56

Wow, no DSP, no access to sample level. Seems that the scripting will not be as cool as everyone thought. (I read in some review that it might enable users to do more stuff than Max for Live does, but apparently this will not be the case at all).


As I understood there would be access to sample data albeit not realtime one.

Can anyone verify? I had expectations that I could be able to write my own waveforms
generators (among other things)...

#47 pirate utopia

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Posted 16 May 2010 - 07:18

Im a veteran Linux user but in the last year I was making music with Mac OS X & Windows 7. I have the 3 installed.
I must said that Linux advanced a lot from my experience 3 years ago. Now, without rt kernel, only jack, renoise, a couple of vst´s and my guitar, the latency is really fine! The guitar sounds with less latency than in mac Os!!!

#48 pirate utopia

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 18:36

In Ardour one can open Windows vst´s! I want this in Renoise, it will be awesome!
Now I need to run Reaper in wine to use my vsts (or ardour), but I need them in Renoise...
Besides that, is great the developers make a Linux version.

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 19:10

In Ardour one can open Windows vst´s!


Even though it's on Ardour's frontpage, information about that is rather scarce? The plugin page links to a Linux Vst Compatibility page, which is filled with piles of bogus entries.

The plugin page also links to the manual for more information, which in its turn links back to the plugin page for more information :rolleyes: But I found this:

Using these Plugins requires manually Compiling the Ardour application, a task which is outside the scope of this manual.

Doesn't sound exactly user friendly...

#50 slippycurb

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Posted 21 May 2010 - 19:48

If you have all the librarys installed, its fairly easy to compile ardour now. And if i remember you just have to put the steinberg sdk into one of the source folders before compiling. But I think it uses Fst as well which you have to compile first and put that into one the source folders...But honestly, it isnt really worth it.Its a big hassle trying to get your plugs to work. even some of the really simple plugins can crash.
what im interested in at the mo is "Pure Data", seems like a good open version of Max...........tho i havnt done anything good with it because im useless. Anybody else using it that could give me some tips of where to find good patches???
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