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Real Sidechaining


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#51 EnergyCrush

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Posted 29 September 2016 - 18:59

Dude, you're totally right - I was over the top, and pretty frustrated last night, my apologies.

 

I have a big project coming up in a week that I intended to use renoise for. It's a little intense, as it's a 48-hour horror-themed event, where you get 48 hours to make a film, and I'm the composer, and possibly the sound engineer. I figured out a workflow that allowed me to align scores with video frames, have picked up some great samples, trimmed down current set of VSTs to stay focused, etc.

 

The final touch getting prepared for this endeavor was picking up a good in-host morphing utility for those samples - need room for creative exploration on some of these sounds. The two primary candidates, of course, are Melda's MMorph and Zynaptiq's Morph 2. Coming back to the forums to find this particular long-in-the-tooth issue is still outstanding, but more, that there is zero information about either it being added nor when the next release that might include is...too much.

 

I'm a developer. My girlfriend is also, and works for MS. I totally get reasons for why and when promises about features aren't communicated. Sometimes, it's actually a legal issue or brand new technology, completely understandable.

 

But that's not the case here. Instead this appears to be a completely unnecessary policy decision that leaves us in the dark, on the most fundamental component of my workflow. Now, I need to go pull open Reaper, or FL Studio, or Ableton, etc., refamiliarize myself, and establish a new fast-paced workflow, a week before the event.

 

This is just crappy Renoise devs. I need you to be the 'professional' DAW you've committed to being and I've accepted you to be, and while that may not mean having every latest-greatest feature pushing the edge, it certainly should include fundamental technologies that have established a firm standing in professional plug-ins, but at the very least needs to shed light on your awareness and intent around it so your users understand what you actually represent. I depend on you, your users depend on you, and this quite frankly, is...yeah, the biggest disappointment I've experienced with Renoise to date, only worse for your utter silence. Crappy.


Edited by EnergyCrush, 29 September 2016 - 19:22.

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#52 EnergyCrush

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 12:16

Okay, problem solved.

 

Spent the entire day and hours of the last week digging into trials of different morphing utilities to little avail (though 2C Audio's Kaleidoscope proved to be amazing enough in it's own right, it will be mine).

 

A few hours into the morning now, took another approach: are there any VST2 plugins that: a) will act as a VST3 host, B) allow complete control over side-chaining and audio separately, c) be absolutely solid, d) not break the bank.

 

And the answer is: yes. It's Metaplugin by DDMF (https://www.kvraudio...aplugin-by-ddmf). I did try Blue Cat Audio's Patchwork and MB7 Mixer as well; don't waste your money. The program makes poor assumptions about implicit side-chain routing that make it unusable for something like MMorph, not to mention it's not very stable and repeatedly crashes itself and Renoise any time a plugin gets removed from the chain, or if you breath to heavy.

 

So is what I have working solidly right now:

  • Pop DDMF effect onto a track, open the editor.
  • Right-click in the DDMF screen, add a VST3 instance of discoDSP Bliss. Add another and then double click on them to open them up.
  • Open Soundly, find a sample, highlight a section you want, drag it to an instance of Bliss. Find another sample and do the same for the second Bliss instance.
  • Right-click back in DDMF, add a VST3 instance of melda MMorph.
  • Connect the Midi input to an instance of Bliss, then connect the other.
  • Connect the Master outputs from one instance of Bliss to the inputs on MMorph.
  • Connect the Master outputs from the other instance of Bliss to the sidechain inputs of MMorph.
  • Connect the MMorph outputs to the Audio Output
  • Add VSTFX alias instrument in the same channel pointing to DDMF
  • VST3 your brains out with MMorph or any other plugin

This workflow is...actually really damn simple.

 

DDMF is plain, but solid, hosts VST3, AU, AAX, RTAS, dead simple to use and customize. More, it loads any plugin (effect or instrument) I want and completely encapsulates the entire workflow away from the rest of the DAW while still allowing me to send the resulting audio for addition effects process consistent with everything else.

 

MMorph supports any two audio sources as long as you can get one to it's primary inputs and the other to it's sidechain inputs. That done, it's got a lot of tweakability I'm finally getting to explore in my DAW of choice (despite...everything). I believe Zynaptiq Morph does this as well, if you feel great about getting another single iLok license for your money (don't care, leave me alone).

 

discoDSP could be any sampler or sound generator you want. I actually have found it horrible for managing/using my sample libraries in general, but the ability to drag-and-drop samples onto it's face and be lightweight actually makes it a perfect choice for this workflow.

 

I was turned onto Soundly by Asbjoern @ asoundeffect.com after picking up some samples. Trying it out for a month, but after demoing several top free and trial sample library managers, don't think there is anything else like it.

 

So...yeah. Reliable VST3 and true sidechaining in Renoise. Go, avail yourselves of this maddening roar.


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#53 EnergyCrush

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 19:28

Something worth mentioning - the DDMF Metaplugin also exposes 100 generic automation parameters that can be quickly mapped to exposed parameters for any plugin you drop into it. The icing on that cake is that they also make that dead simple to use as through drop-down lists at the top of the plugin.

 

The 1st drop-down list contains the 100 generic Metaplugin parameters (param. 1, param.2, ..., param. 100).

The 2nd drop-down list is populated with every insert/plugin currently showing in Metaplugin, updated as inserts/plugins are added/removed.

The 3rd drop-down gets auto-populated whenever an insert/plugin is selected in the 2nd drop-down.

 

What is especially cool is that you don't just see the generic 'param. 1', etc. inside Renoise once you've established a mapping - instead you get the insert/plugin parameter name followed by (<plugin_index>: <plugin_name>), so you don't have to try remembering what all the parameters are mapped to. Freaking awesome! I do notice that string is a little truncated in Renoise to 16 chars, so it's not perfect, but reasonably functional.

 

 

Also, one other thing - while initially you do have to either drag-and-drop the plugin dll into the Metaplugin UI or right-click, 'Load Plugin', and navigate to it on disk, Metaplugin stores the info for each one you add and provides a hierarchical view of that list dynamically in the Metaplugin UI right-click menu by developer (discoDSP, FabFilter, etc.) - apparently alphabetically. It provides an option in that menu to also clear the list as well.

 

Seriously impressed by DDMF Metaplugin...very rare to see such a solid, well-designed, directly useful and functional tool that does exactly what I want without significant gaps while still not being bloated in any way. Kudos DDMF!

 

Hope this helps others using Renoise as well.


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#54 mr moses

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 17:50

Any chance you could post instructions on how to side-chain using Metaplugin? Do you also need MMorph as mentioned above? Being able to side-chain in Renoise would be my dream come true! Thanks for the post. 



#55 toblerpone

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Posted 05 February 2017 - 20:41

If you use a higher sample rate, like 96Khz, it's possible to perform side chain on plugins that can filter out high frequency signals, which if free is unfortunately almost strictly compression. This uses MFrequency shifter and MCompressor. https://www.dropbox....chain.xrns?dl=1



#56 EnergyCrush

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Posted 06 February 2017 - 00:37

@mr moses - Sure, and no, you don't need MMorph for side-chaining, it was just the plug-in I needed side-chaining for at the time.

 

You have a few options depending on what you want to do. There may be more than what I'm listing here.

 

1. Use Metaplugin as an instrument to host each plugin you want to side-chain (it can load as either an instrument or effect):

  • Load MetapluginSynth as an instrument and open the editor
  • Inside MetapluginSynth editor:
    • Drag desired plug-in dlls into window (or right-click and load; DDMF will remember each added)
    • Route midi-in to each instrument as needed (and out as needed)
    • Route audio output directly as needed from each instrument to primary Audio Output
    • Route other/additional audio output from each instrument you want to side-chain to the target plugin
  • Example:
    • The example above is how I did this using Bliss as a sound generation source side-chained into MMorph, which mixes it's own generator with the input from another source, Bliss in this case.

2. Use Metaplugin as an effect on a track to mix track output with plugin hosted inside Metaplugin instance:

  • Add notes for an instrument to a track
  • Add Metaplugin as an effect to that track and open its editor
    • Notice here that when loaded as an effect, Metaplugin automatically includes an Audio Input box
  • Inside Metaplugin editor:
    • Drag desired plug-in dlls into window (or right-click and load)
    • Route any midi-in to each plugin you need
    • Route Audio Input to each plugin you want do side-chaining with
    • Route audio output from each plugin inside Metaplugin to the Audio Output box
  • Example:
    • Load a vocal sample as an instrument on 00 and trigger it on Track 01
    • Add Metaplugin as an effect on Track 01
    • Create a new instrument on 01 a VST FX alias to the Metaplugin instance on Track 01
    • Add a few midi notes for VST FX alias on 01 to Track 02
    • Open the Metaplugin editor on Track 01, and from within it:
      • Load a vocoder plugin - I'll use Native Instruments Reaktor w/Razor in this case
        • Note: specifically the 'Reaktor 6 FX.dll' in this case
      • Route Midi Input to Reaktor 6
      • Route the stereo Audio Input into Reaktor 6's first two audio inputs
      • Route Reaktor 6's first two audio outputs to the Audio Output box
      • Double-click on Reaktor 6 to open up it's editor
      • Navigate to a Vocoder preset, and you should immediately start hearing the vocoded vocal sample

3. Use Metaplugin's SendIt effect to transmit audio across channels for side-chaining

  • Add an instrument or sound source to a track
  • Add the SendIt plugin to that track and open its editor
    • Set it to 'Send' on Channel 1 and uncheck 'PassThru'
  • Add a second instrument you want to side-chain to on a separate track
  • Add the SendIt plugin to this second track and open its editor
    • Set this SendIt instance to 'Receive' on Channel 1 and make sure 'PassThru' is checked
  • Example:
    • I won't go deep on this one save to say a couple of things:
      • You can test this setup without a second instrument by adding midi notes for the first instrument and see that audio is actually being routed to track with the receive instance of SendIt
      • I've noticed I sometimes need to open the receive instance of SendIt and click on the channel to get it working again - sometimes doesn't immediately play on song trigger, but have never had it cut out during playback

 

Hopefully that's plenty of detail (if not too much) that gives you enough to work from :)

 

Thanks,

Mickey


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#57 mr moses

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Posted 12 February 2017 - 05:38

EnergyCrush you are the Renoise SAVIOR!! And Metaplugin too! AFTER YEARS, I am FINALLY sidechaining for real in Renoise. WHY DID IT TAKE THIS LONG?!  Below is my 2 second cheap picture tutorial of how to duck bass via kick drum.. We can't thank you enough.

 

Hear my results here... 

 

 

17760950_1856653184593331_6223726920709617637143_1856653187926664_2892370688479717547102_1856653191259997_5233083640005717761063_1856653217926661_70138525915698


Edited by mr moses, 03 April 2017 - 17:41.

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#58 Garth Knight

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Posted 12 February 2017 - 21:40

Hi where did you get all those Bass one shots please?  is that the factory content ?



#59 Roppenzo

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Posted 13 February 2017 - 15:45

EnergyCrush you are the Renoise SAVIOR!! And Metaplugin too! AFTER YEARS, I am FINALLY sidechaining for real in Renoise. WHY DID IT TAKE THIS LONG?!  Below is my 2 second cheap picture tutorial of how to duck bass via kick drum.. We can't thank you enough.
16508734_1832380230353960_7249639819030016684030_1832380237020626_8695614916800416602888_1832380233687293_1868073672776016730386_1832380263687290_14356874214348


hq screenshots please? I can not read this..
House Music All Night Long. - Say What?

#60 EnergyCrush

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Posted 17 February 2017 - 09:18

That's awesome, glad I could help. Yeah, this tool has opened up a world of options, hope it helps a lot of other people too :)



#61 joule

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Posted 26 February 2017 - 11:12

@EnergyCrush,

 

I have trouble getting it working. See picture.

 

mmorph.png

 

Strange if it works for you and not me. I'm on Windows 10, Renoise 3.1 x64. I've contacted DDFM who said they'll look into it.



#62 joule

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Posted 01 March 2017 - 09:58

Anyone thinking about buying (or updating) DDMF metaplugin, be aware that recent versions doesn't seem to work with Melda plugins (like Mmorph) anymore. I've contacted both developers about this incompatibility and they both say it's a problem with the other product ;P

 

Could anyone here that uses metaplugin+mmorph (or any other Melda sidechaining) tell me what version of metaplugin you're using? It would be very helpful, as I could then revert to the same version.

 

EDIT: metaplugin has been updated and the problem seems to be fixed!


Edited by joule, 07 March 2017 - 12:52.

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#63 Ledger

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 11:51

Thanks for doing the legwork and writing up EnergyCrush!

 

After experimenting I`ve made a screenshot of how I set it up.  I think It`s the same as mr moses?.  I`ve found that with multiple instances of Metaplug with routings from multiple tracks can make the **CPU skyrocket so the next step on (not pictured) I`ve used Metaplugin on a send channel and routed channels I want sidechained to that.  (Can be phasing issues if not careful with send routing though)

 

Kick Track: 1 instance of SendIt (included with Metaplug) Sending on channel 1

Bass Track: 1 Instance of MetaPlugin 64bit.

Inside Metaplugin:

1 Instance of Sendit set to receive on channel 1

1 Instance of Reacomp 64bit (needs to match (64)bit version of MetaPlugin) Detector Input set to  [Auxilary Input L+R]  --the drop-down under knee size

 

edit: renoise reports 0ms latency.

**if you want to use multiple instances, make sure you use different channels in the Sendit Plugs for each instance of Metaplugin, to stop spiking CPU.

 

Reacomp freeware download as part of pack of reaper plugs:

http://www.reaper.fm/reaplugs/

 

MetaPlug Sidechain Notated.png


Edited by Ledger, 11 March 2017 - 13:11.

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#64 joule

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 12:56

Metaplugin has been updated and the problem seems to be fixed with the new version (2.6.7).

 

The melda+DDFM devs sorted it out after a minimum amount of nagging :) (Appearantly, VST2 sidechaining is a general 'hack' and not fully formalized...)



#65 Ledger

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 13:43

Metaplugin has been updated and the problem seems to be fixed with the new version (2.6.7).

 

The melda+DDFM devs sorted it out after a minimum amount of nagging :) (Appearantly, VST2 sidechaining is a general 'hack' and not fully formalized...)

 

Good to hear!

 

Metaplugin does seem to be a good solution so far.  The setup I showed above also has 0ms Latency!

 

The only issue so far has been the massive CPU on multiple routings on the same channel.  I`ll keep experimenting, though I`m happy to route everything I need side-chained to a send, though it`s less flexible than multiple instances.

 

 

Have to say side-chaining is way more important than I thought.  I assumed it was just for pumping Daft Punk kind of effects, but it turns out it makes balancing/ compressing drums a hell of a lot easier! A good sign is when you mute the kick and all the other drum channels still sound tight and compressing along nicely, being driven with the kick source.  Also means you can balance the kick easier against all those elements as adjust it`s post level with out making a mess of group compression.  Saves a lot of tail chasing!

 

I`m a bit late to the party, but I can see why this is high on a lot of peoples request list!


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#66 Ledger

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 15:25

If on windows, Metaplugin will also load VST .dll`s from Symbolic links.  This means if you`re VST folder is a mess as mine is, you can create a separate folder of Symbolic links pointing to your VSTs and browse that from the Metaplugin interface (unfortunatly Metaplugin doesn`t scan for VSTs so you have to load manually).  You can organise you symbolic links folder as you like, maybe just having a few side-chainable VSTs linked, or maybe your whole folder in one folder and no sub folders.

 

With the program `Link shell extension` you can select multiple dll`s from your VST folder, right-click and `Pick Link Source`.  Then go to your destination Symbolic Liinks folder, right-click and `Drop Symbolic Link`

To do this for all dll`s in your VST folder first use the search bar and type `dll`.  Hilight all the results and do the above

 

--------

Guide on howtogeek; the Link Shell Extension is discussed lower down the page:

 

https://www.howtogee...ndows-or-linux/

 

 

`Link shell extension` Requires 2 downloads,one for the program and a microsoft package -- all links at bottom of page:

 

http://schinagl.priv...lextension.html


Edited by Ledger, 07 March 2017 - 15:26.

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#67 Ledger

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Posted 11 March 2017 - 12:59

After experimenting I`ve made a screenshot of how I set it up.  I think It`s the same as mr moses?.  I`ve found that with multiple instances of Metaplug with routings from multiple tracks can make the CPU skyrocket so the next step on (not pictured) I`ve used Metaplugin on a send channel and routed channels I want sidechained to that.  (Can be phasing issues if not careful with send routing though)

 

It seems to avoid the skyrocketing CPU you have to make sure that:

 

1) You use different channels in the Sendit routing VST for each instance of Metaplug.  So even if you are using the same kick as a sidechain source:  for x amount of Metaplugin instances, you need x amount of Sendit plugins on that kick track, all using different channels.

 

2) Make sure the renoise feature `Auto suspend plugin when silent` is enabled for Metaplug.  If not, the CPU will skyrocket when the song stops.

 

 

*Edit: even start menu search works fine.

 

*Another tip for Windows users and loading plugs.  A bit easier than the symlinks solution I mentioned before is to use the search program `Everything`.  Just fire it up, type in dll and name_of_plugin_you_want then just drag the dll from there onto Metaplugin interface:

 

https://www.voidtools.com/


Edited by Ledger, 11 March 2017 - 13:17.

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#68 Ledger

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Posted 18 March 2017 - 16:51

Top MetaPlugin tip for parallel processing.  Not obvious feature, done by shift + left-click drag

 

In Metaplugin you can change the Wet/Dry ratio of the signal going through each of the loaded plugins. You can do this by Shift-dragging the mouse horizontally over a plugin rectangle. A full rectangle means 100 % wet signal, while the slider pulled all the way to the left means the plugin will be bypassed completely

 

 

 

~50% mix

recomp 50%.PNG


Edited by Ledger, 18 March 2017 - 16:53.

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#69 EnergyCrush

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 07:33

@joule I'm glad a newer version resolved, and sorry I didn't get a chance to respond earlier...things have been more crazy than usual latey :/


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#70 joule

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 10:38

Yes, it was very nice of the devs to fix it!

 

I'm not using metaplugin at the moment as I switched to S1 as main host where the mixing and most of the midi editing happen. Renoise workarounds and quirks soon add up to tedious workflows that more or less indirectly/subconsciously makes me less creative and less likely to just try stuff out. (It's still an indispensible tool for fast melody prototyping+detailed sample control, so thank the gods for rewire!)


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#71 Fsus4

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 23:50

thank the gods for rewire!

 

Speaking of ReWire, joule do you know if it would be technically possible to treat each new instance of Renoise as a unique ReWire slave?

 

I know it's not possible right now with Renoise 3.1, but is it even possible in theory?

 

I was thinking that maybe some dirty hack around it could solve the problem, like for example messing with the registry and some files. The trick would be too fool a DAW such as S1 to scan and register Renoise1, Renoise2, Renoise3, Renoise4, Renoise5, etc, rather than just Renoise.

 

Imagine if this was possible, then we could build e.g. complex drum arrangements as one Renoise song template (using VST instruments and all of Renoise's capabilities as opposed to just samples in Redux), then build another Renoise song template (run in a separate Renoise instance) for sound effects, etc.

 

This would practically be like having each Renoise instance running as a VST instrument. Add different skins to each instance to tell them apart, place out and pin them on multiple displays... well, now that would be an extremely powerful setup.


Edited by Fsus4, 29 March 2017 - 15:44.


#72 joule

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 14:21

Speaking of ReWire, joule do you know if it would be technically possible to treat each new instance of Renoise as a unique ReWire slave?
 
I know it's not possible right now with Renoise 3.1, but is it even possible in theory?


I don't know, really. Like you say, I can only add one instance of Renoise as rewire slave in S1. I'm just guessing it wouldn't help to install multiple versions, but that Renoise is identified via some ID string. As an alternative, I wouldn't recommend trying to sync hosts with midi and virtual audio cables instead of Rewire. You'll encounter headaches and/or sync issues.

The kind of workflow that you're mentioning (or the gist of it) can be covered by proper midi drag'n'drop imo. I'd probably use that, rather than running multiple instances. Unfortunately, that kind of midi drag and drop isn't available in Renoise yet, which is partly the reason why I use S1.

Edited by joule, 30 March 2017 - 14:24.


#73 mr moses

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 17:49

Hi where did you get all those Bass one shots please?  is that the factory content ?

Just part of my ever growing personal samples! Not factory content unfortunately...


hq screenshots please? I can not read this..

Sorry, technical issues. My pics are back up and Metaplugin still working like a charm.

 

However, it doesn't seem to work with Izotope Neutron unfortunately. Anyone else have this problem?



#74 Ledger

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 15:02

Quick tip I just found when using a duplicate kick as your sidechain source . i.e. silenced in the mixer but just driving the side-chain compression.

 

It can be handy to nudge the duplicate kick track a few ms ahead of time ( a minus value).  This means that the compressor will react quicker when clamping down on snares.  I was finding that sometimes a bit too much transients were sneaking through, particularly if you have already nudged snare/ clap samples around, in order to improve the groove or widen the sound.


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#75 LFOKringlan

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Posted 27 June 2017 - 14:34

Hello!
 

Is it only for the kick and bass you guys using this sidechain technique? or is it more?

Do you compress or eq the sound source before the sidechain?

Where do I place the effects? for start or after?

Many questions but Im so confused.  :blink:  ^_^