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Real Sidechaining


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#76 EnergyCrush

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Posted 01 July 2017 - 07:53

Hi LFOKringlan,

 

Hello!
 

Is it only for the kick and bass you guys using this sidechain technique? or is it more?

Do you compress or eq the sound source before the sidechain?

Where do I place the effects? for start or after?

Many questions but Im so confused.  :blink:  ^_^

 

I was actually using it for morphing two audio signals - synths and samples.

Side-chaining comes up in popular conversation a lot as a method of 'ducking' out a tracks audio (or certain frequency range of that audio) in response to another tracks audio signal - like a kick ducking a bass tone to avoid muddiness, or ducking a trance chord as an effect. Almost any modern DAW with developers responsive to their customer base supports this functionality natively now - most of them for several years now.

 

Essentially it's a method of routing and using one audio signal to modulate another audio signal...typically using the volume of the first as the modulator of the second. In the case where I was 'morphing' audio signals, in reality it was more like a vocoder - using the first signal as a sort of formant to shape the second signal, using Melda's MMoprh as it were. Not really a deep morph like a Kyma or anything, but an interesting effect nonetheless :)

 

Mickey


Edited by EnergyCrush, 01 July 2017 - 07:57.


#77 LFOKringlan

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Posted 07 July 2017 - 21:52

Hey Mickey!

I think I got it now.. But my CPU is on 76% and then I just got a kick track and a bass track lol. 😁

#78 ffx

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Posted 24 August 2017 - 11:58

I want to let the Renoise team know that today I am missing sidechain in Renoise compressors, again! I really like their sound. But there are scenarios in which a sidechain is required. So many things would be possible.


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#79 somemoron

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Posted 25 August 2017 - 20:33

Hi all,

 

I've been struggling to get this working for the last couple of days - it seems that as soon as i add Sendit and set it to receive, my CPU just goes nuts until Renoise stops.  I'm just testing with 2 instances of Zebra, attempting to route audio from one track to another and during the short time before Renoise stops, I get nothing

 

I set up the same as Ledger's screenshots (thanks Ledger!) but routed straight from "Sendit: receive channel 1" to my audio output in Metaplugin but got no signal on channel 2

 

I'm running Windows 7 on an I7 processor with 64bit everything so I feel like I must be doing something wrong if I can't run even one instance of this on my machine

 

I saw Ledger also suggested using the "Auto suspend plugin when silent" option but I can't find this. < edit: I found it, this was already enabled, as was multiprocessor support >  If the CPU normally skyrockets when the song stops, i wonder if, since it doesn't seem to be receiving anything, this same effect is being seen in my track even though it's not actually stopped.  

 

<another edit> I enabled "use static processing buffers" and now although I still have no signal, my CPU is coping>

 

I've tried reinstalling Metaplugin, leaving out all the 32 bit stuff just to make sure i'm not mixing my bits and the usual reboot everything drill has been done

 

Thanks to EnergyCrush's excellent work I am mere inches from Mmorphing my drums with my synths but I can't quite seem to cross the finish line - any ideas would be very welcome!  

 

 

 

<last edit : Living up to my name here, i just demonstrated my problem to a friend and it worked, very clicky but i was getting something, then i turned off "use static processing buffers" and suddenly everything's fine!  If anyone else has similar problems to me, the solution is tick and untick everything and then show your friend how it doesn't work


Edited by somemoron, 25 August 2017 - 22:10.


#80 EnergyCrush

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 07:24

Hey Mickey!

I think I got it now.. But my CPU is on 76% and then I just got a kick track and a bass track lol.

 

Man..yeah, that is extreme. I haven't hit that yet. I have seen that Renoise treats plugins differently from other VST hosts in a few ways, and though it seems to have gotten better over time, it leads to some pretty borked behavior...VSTs that aren't explicitly stopped when space bar is used to stop, failure to retrigger VST sync, high CPU on many plugins (for example, Sonarworks) compared to other DAWs, etc. I haven't seen it that high on my system, and am not sure why, but I'm not falling out of my chair surprised.


I want to let the Renoise team know that today I am missing sidechain in Renoise compressors, again! I really like their sound. But there are scenarios in which a sidechain is required. So many things would be possible.

 

Deaf ears man. It's like waiting to spot BigFoot. It's like with DAWs the options are a ) full featured and regularly updated, b ) reasonably priced, c ) actually awesome to use: pick 2.


Edited by EnergyCrush, 31 August 2017 - 07:25.


#81 EnergyCrush

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Posted 31 August 2017 - 07:38

<last edit : Living up to my name here, i just demonstrated my problem to a friend and it worked, very clicky but i was getting something, then i turned off "use static processing buffers" and suddenly everything's fine!  If anyone else has similar problems to me, the solution is tick and untick everything and then show your friend how it doesn't work

 

Lol...every time.

 

Glad you got it working. Have been so slammed at work lately it's taking me days or weeks to respond to tons of personal email.



#82 somemoron

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Posted 09 September 2017 - 21:18

Actually, other than for about 10 minutes I never did get this working - I just mailed them requesting a refund as their support dude has given up and I can't think of much else to try myself.  It's super annoying since I bought MMorph and can't use it

 

Is there anything else similar to Metaplugin anyone can recommend?

 

Please add me to the list of people asking for sidechain support in Renoise!


Edited by somemoron, 18 September 2017 - 15:18.


#83 EnergyCrush

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Posted 18 September 2017 - 01:38

However, it doesn't seem to work with Izotope Neutron unfortunately. Anyone else have this problem?

 

Curious if you've played with this more. I seem to be able to use Neutron either directly or within Metaplugin, but was having trouble where the drop-down in the Masking feature wouldn't show any other instances of Neutron. What I figured out was that if the option to run plugins in their own sandbox is on, Neutron (and likely other plugins) can't see each other. While DDMF Metaplugin enables side-chaining functionality between VST3 plugins, hosted plugins like Neutron are still impacted by that setting, which is...irritating.

 

I'm in the process of trying to use Metaplugin for Neutron, as I discovered that when running Neutron in Reason 9.5, the CPU is completely overwhelmed with 2 or more instances. Digging around, it seems other people have noticed that Neutron seems to be much less CPU intensive when run as a VST3 plugin, and Metaplugin makes this possible in both Renoise and Reason, both being only VST2 capable at present. The hokery involved in connecting it all this way is phenomenal, not in a good way.

 

Staggering thought for the day: It's going to be a seriously telling day when, given the context of history, Propellerheads implements VST3 support in Reason before Renoise developers make it happen. Chew on that for a while.


Edited by EnergyCrush, 18 September 2017 - 01:39.


#84 whitewolfmusic

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Posted 06 October 2017 - 00:00

In general, Renoise could use more flexible / powerful routing capabilities, along with an easy way to do them. That would be one of my feature requests, too. Split signals, route them into certain VST plugins like compressors, etc.


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#85 Sweeppah

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Posted 28 October 2017 - 23:41

+1 for this



#86 Type-A

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 13:24

hi interesting post i use to think the same as you ..but ive noticed that producers every day are using more ducking (basically what we made in renoise signal follower+hydra+gainer)

 

to kinda illustrate my point ....producer Matt Lange its hosting a podcast called tam tempo...

one of the 1st episodes  guests Calix&Teebee MatZo 12th Planet and Photek

 

specifically talk about sidechain compression and the way they approach to it

 

the podcast also cover a lot of good material ....regarding producing aspects.. :)

 

heres the link

http://taptempo.libs...h-planet-photek


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#87 EnergyCrush

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Posted 29 October 2017 - 21:51

hi interesting post i use to think the same as you ..but ive noticed that producers every day are using more ducking (basically what we made in renoise signal follower+hydra+gainer)

 

I can totally appreciate what you are saying. It's awesome to have that path, and it probably solves the issue for several Renoise users. I love that Renoise has built-in several core effects, as well as extensible utilities that in many ways goes beyond other DAWs. It's noted on several respectable 'top x plugins' lists that the best place to start for entry level musicians are the often very decent tools already built in to your DAW. This got me off the ground for years, when Renoise was literally the only thing I could afford.

 

Now I rely on the functionality built into VST plug-ins because I need my core toolset to work everywhere. I depend on my plugin developers to keep relatively up to date, and I depend on my DAW developers to do the same. Tracking is how I cut my teeth and how I prefer to write, and at the end of the day, Renoise is and has been the only serious option for modern Trackers. This is where I feel responsibility lies, and where I feel Renoise has actually failed myself and others. This is where pride in my conversations telling other musicians how I write ends, and why I haven't convinced anyone else to pick it up now in years. It will die, and that means ultimately the hardcore users lose as well.

 

If Renoise developers honestly don't believe they can or will make it a priority in their lives again, then I'd ask them please to open source it, before someone else actually does eat their...OUR...lunch. Strong as the community is here, the amazing investments users have made, it's a shoe-in for active development.

 

But that's only true if Renoise devs open up the chest and share the key. I get it, it's unlikely, but this is honesty, not politics.


Edited by EnergyCrush, 29 October 2017 - 21:52.

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#88 speedraver

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 11:14

Does anyone have a solution for this meanwhile? Metaplugin + SendIt = high CPU usage, no matter what I am trying, it is impossible to get it working. I want to use a frequency based ducking plugin (MSpectralDynamics) that NEEDS side-chaining for that to work at all. Given that the "Metaplugin + its SendIt plugin" solution is not really working, I was wondering if anyone has found another way? In any case, I need to be able to use 2 tracks within Renoise for that (kick / bass-synth), so it is not a solution to use 2 instruments within one Metaplugin instance (which works fine of course for plugins like MMorph).

 

Thanks a lot guys :-)


Edited by speedraver, 08 February 2018 - 11:15.


#89 ffx

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 13:52

AFAIK it only has insane cpu usage if you do not match the correct send channel. Have a more accurate eye on the numbers.


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#90 speedraver

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 20:13

They are matched, I am not completely dumb as I´ve been using rather complex VST setups since the end of the 90´s (previously DirectX plugins) :-) I´ve even tried to go through different ones from 1 to 16 (always matched up in Metaplugin / SendIt), still the same. I can make a video if you do not believe me. It simply isn´t working, unfortunately. CPU always sky-rockets when trying to play (and especially afterward). If it works for you just fine, it would be great if you could make a video showing that, so that I can double check everything else I might be doing wrong, but the channel numbers are 100% matched.


Edited by speedraver, 08 February 2018 - 20:18.

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#91 ffx

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Posted 08 February 2018 - 20:21

Hm, is the sender to the left/top from the receiver on the mixer view?


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#92 speedraver

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 00:37

@ffx: I´ve found the issue, I was running all plugins sandboxed for stability reasons on big projects, but that prevented SendIt from working at all (just saw that was mentioned earlier in this thread already). Now that I´ve disabled that option, it works just fine!

 

Everyone who didn´t try that yet, go ahead and get MSpectralDynamics to remove exactly the frequencies of your kick from your bass-synth (or whatever from whatever) via it´s side-chain, without having to mess with band/frequency configurations on your own like it would be needed if using dynamic eq / typical multiband compressor. It works fantastic and provides super clean results in terms of separation. It´s basically like an automatic 16384 band (actually I think it´s even more) multiband compressor.  Example (watch from 8:30): 


Edited by speedraver, 09 February 2018 - 00:58.

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#93 ffx

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Posted 09 February 2018 - 01:22

Nice idea, how much latency is introduced by MSpectralDynamics?  How does the ducked signal sound alone, is there some weird FFT / Mp3 sound audible then or does it sound fine? No ringing or so?


Edited by ffx, 09 February 2018 - 01:26.

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#94 Rpnz

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Posted 12 March 2018 - 21:45

I'm still waiting for the day we don't need a dedicated vst for this :-(

Edited by Rpnz, 12 March 2018 - 21:45.

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#95 gezmond

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Posted 03 May 2018 - 18:28

@ffx: I´ve found the issue, I was running all plugins sandboxed for stability reasons on big projects, but that prevented SendIt from working at all (just saw that was mentioned earlier in this thread already). Now that I´ve disabled that option, it works just fine!

 

Everyone who didn´t try that yet, go ahead and get MSpectralDynamics to remove exactly the frequencies of your kick from your bass-synth (or whatever from whatever) via it´s side-chain, without having to mess with band/frequency configurations on your own like it would be needed if using dynamic eq / typical multiband compressor. It works fantastic and provides super clean results in terms of separation. It´s basically like an automatic 16384 band (actually I think it´s even more) multiband compressor.  Example (watch from 8:30): 

 

How did you get this to work with no sidechain option available?