Jump to content


Photo

► Renoise 3 Beta testing starts - announcing Redux


  • Please log in to reply
500 replies to this topic

#426 taktik

taktik

    Renoise Developer

  • Admins
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15040 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Berlin, Germany
  • Interests:füße waschen

Posted 05 January 2014 - 21:17

Nobody was asking them to put in 'everything', they were asking them to put in the things most people have been asking for, for years...


Something weird happened to this forum lately. Probably helps if I try to explain a bit more in detail why we've done what we've done for r3. Not only as a direct response to you, but more in general to what happens in this forum lately.


---

This release does indeed not concentrate on the top 10 most wanted features discussed in this forum, but concentrates on the heart of the thing which we all obviously care about: a tracker. That is an extraordinary way of working with samples and the numerical, keyboard based musical notation: patterns.

We devs ("them" - as you say) of course knew that this set of features will not make everyone happy, but we also did not expected /so/ many very loud and fretful voices. I really wonder where this comes from and what to learn from this. We had other releases like for example the Lua scripting release which also was not everybody's cup of tea, but in overall still resulted into positive responses or none at all. This is especially unexpected to me because this release does concentrate on very tracker'ish things, and not on polarizing features like a piano roll or something which is completely off topic.

It's also not that we're asking for a lot in return for r3. Many (probably even most) registered users do get this update for free - for nothing. But probably it's just the combination of changes to an old workflow, the new UI, and the relatively long time since the last release which causes so much division here. This change in the overall mood here actually already started in the Renoise 3 speculation thread.


---

First, everyone here can (well, must) have a strong opinion on what feature is "needed" most. Of course. But we, here, have to make a lot of compromises.

Like what to do first, what later? What can be realized in a given amount of time at all? What brings Renoise into the "right" direction - what can be continued later on? What will pay our bills? And who should decide that?

If we'd simply stack the most wanted features into a release, can you imagine how this would look like? There must be something which gives the whole thing a shape and rough direction. Lots of compromises have to be made and even if we want, we can't realize everything we'd like to have in one release. This is especially true when dealing with old and bloated software like Renoise. This will sooner or later break the whole thing and only a few people can then actually follow the changes. And even if we wanted to, we could not fulfill everyone's wish in one release.


Then, what is a "needed" feature at all? What is an important feature in music software? What most people want?

"Insert some feature here" won't make anyone a better musician. In 99.8% of all cases Renoise is not a tool to get a job done, but a tool to help you to inspire you. It's about creativity. An art craft. So whatever we're adding to Renoise, this can only help you to get inspired. And for everything else there are other tools or workarounds, if you really really can not do what you want to archive in Renoise. Offering new workflows, new ways of organizing things and "seeing" them differently IMHO is a very important aspect here.

Why are so many people waiting for new features for their tool? I think the main reason here is that they got stuck in what they are doing, and hope that feature XYZ finally solves that. It won't.


And finally there's Redux now too, which influenced Renoise 3's features and the decisions on what to concentrate on in r3 and what not. The main Redux idea (it actually had a different name back then) was to get the Renoise way of working with samples and patterns into new areas. Allowing people to use trackers where they make sense most. Allowing to combine a tracker with other musical instruments more easily. It's true that this clearly does not target most existing Renoise users here and will disappoint many, but it also brings a program that you all like into new areas. Is this really a bad thing?

Another reason why we wanted to concentrate on Redux, was also to expand into a new market. We're a small team. A very small one actually. Renoise is an extreme niche product while also being a hell to manage. We love what we do, working on Renoise, but we also can't do this job for nothing. So the idea of a new product, Redux, also, even though not primarily, was favored as well in order to keep Renoise alive in the long term.


---

So we basically wanted to get back to the root of Renoise with r3 for the reasons noted above, instead of "just" adding new most wanted features on top of the old Renoise. Not only, but also because of Redux - yes. Sharpen and improve it in areas where it's good and different at compared to other music soft out there and combine this with new and hopefully inspiring workflows.

A lot of those areas (like the sampler) got untended for a long long time. Far too long. And if you look at Renoise 2.8 from the distance, the sampler, instruments are scattered over the whole UI. Making it hard or even impossible to see and understand what exactly the sampler in Renoise is at all. Most of you got used to this in the past years, yes, but try to imagine how Renoise looks to someone who looks at it for the first time.

So we've tried to fix this by encapsulating the sampler into a single unit before expanding it. A bit like a VSTi in Renoise, which can be complex as hell in detail but because you are only confronted with those details when actually editing the sound, the thing still stays somewhat manageable. While composing you don't have to worry about oscillators, what is connected to what and how, to exactly create the sound you're currently playing. It's like a box which you can open up if you want to change it, but if you just want to play with it you better leave it closed and only use the one or two buttons that are at the outside of the box.


The same is true for the Doofer and for phrases which do not really add something "fundamentally" new to the Renoise core features, yes, but they allow you to hide, reuse and share stuff. Either with the community or with yourself.

I think this is a big thing in whole workflow in Renoise, and hope that this new way of "encapsulation" and "sharing" gets a bit more clear when we do release the Renoise library file format and structure. Renoise libraries will be small bundled files, which, when installed, inject instruments, phrases, DSP FX and modulation sets into Renoise. So even when most Renoise users do not want to create complex sampler based instruments with macros, modulation, phrases and stuff, someone else can do this for you, and you can use and play all this in Renoise.

And again comes Redux into the play here because it's a Renoise instrument. So whatever you are doing in Renoise with instruments can be played in Redux too.


---

So, yes, we don't have something for everyone in this release, but hope you can at least understand and accept why we do what we do. We are clearly not trying doing this to piss someone off, and do not ignore the "community" in general. Renoise was and will be built on top of and with the community, but on a many-sided one. Most of Renoise's core team members are very active here. Reality simply is a bit more complex.

But it's also true that many of those decisions and reasoning is done behind closed curtains, so we clearly should do a better job in communicating them as well.
  • Garf, It-Alien, danoise and 32 others like this

#427 slippycurb

slippycurb

    Big Masta Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 519 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ireland Co Galway
  • Interests:My interests change from day to day, but i always like eggs.

Posted 05 January 2014 - 22:31

Its your software, keep doing what your doing, and keep eating too. Just because some weird spoilt fuckers with no friends and no talent keep whinging and wasting useful forum space just to get their, in reality, ugly faces noticed by telling you how to run your company, just means your apart of the same world the rest of us are. People are generally egotistical idiots with no vision.
Me and many others are right now messing around estatically with something you guys/gals created and keep improving.

Edited by slippycurb, 05 January 2014 - 22:32.

  • It-Alien, Djeroek, Dunks and 3 others like this
"No one would have believed, in the last years of the nineteenth century, that this world was being watched keenly and closely by intelligences greater than man's and yet as mortal as his own;"


SuckOnThisElectronicEgg


https://www.facebook...ristiansvslions

#428 td6d

td6d

    Guruh Motha Fakka is Levitating and Knows Everything About Renoise Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1423 posts
  • Location:The Netherlands

Posted 05 January 2014 - 23:20

Its your software, keep doing what your doing, and keep eating too. Just because some weird spoilt fuckers with no friends and no talent keep whinging and wasting useful forum space just to get their, in reality, ugly faces noticed by telling you how to run your company, just means your apart of the same world the rest of us are. People are generally egotistical idiots with no vision.
Me and many others are right now messing around estatically with something you guys/gals created and keep improving.


Pshh, please.
I think a lot of people here that are not too happy with the last release are just very passionate fans of Renoise.
I myself love it to bits as wel but after every major update it's always a bit depressing to have to look for features you've used a thousand times before.
The workflow of MANY people gets scrambled and that's very frustrating, it takes time to get that back.
I remember when the 2.8 update got release I was sitting on the couch with a date.. I got so excited about the release I actually watched the whole introduction movie and tried to explain to my date why this was so incredibly awesome :blush:/> (we had a laugh about the whole thing right after ;) )
It felt like an awesome workflow improvement and a few requested features were implemented while this release didn't do much for me personally. (over the years I started working more and more with VSTi's)
I think the long anticipation for the new BIG release might have killed the joy for a lot of people aswel. So calling everybody that has an opinion other than yours a 'weird spoilt fucker without friends and talent that keeps whining and wasting useful forum space' just shows your narrow minded view of the average Renoise user.
  • hmā, krixa, crazya02 and 1 other like this

- God have mercy on your hipster soul. -


#429 22tape

22tape

    Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPip
  • 56 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles

Posted 05 January 2014 - 23:47

great stuff, taktik. i can't imagine having to be pulled in a million different directions by the user-base, yet having to remain focused on your own vision. props to you guys. especially for focusing on the sampler so munch in R3. i like that direction. looking forward to upgrading when i get the chance.

thanks for your work. and thanks for making it affordable.
  • lowkey, .xrns and Jenoki like this

#430 fladd

fladd

    Guruh Motha Fakka is Levitating and Knows Everything About Renoise Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1268 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:The Netherlands

Posted 05 January 2014 - 23:52

Something weird happened to this forum lately. Probably helps if I try to explain a bit more in detail why we've done what we've done for r3. Not only as a direct response to you, but more in general to what happens in this forum lately.


---

This release does indeed not concentrate on the top 10 most wanted features discussed in this forum, but concentrates on the heart of the thing which we all obviously care about: a tracker. That is an extraordinary way of working with samples and the numerical, keyboard based musical notation: patterns.

[...]


I actually agree with all of this. I love the idea of a great sampler with powerful instruments made by the community! I also think this should have priority and that it was a good choice to focus on this for the new release. Still I am a bit disappointed with the beta. Again, not because I would have liked improvement on something else than the sampler, but especially, because I always hoped that the sampler gets more attention and the features it has missed for so long. When I read the beta announcement that the instruments got improved, I got very excited actually. However, I then realized that the sampler mainly got a bunch of new features (which are nice, don't get me wrong here), while some really basic things got still not addressed (mute/choke groups, sample start/end automation, etc.). I think I (and probably others as well) had wished for a more bottom up approach. To me the sampler still doesn't feel complete.

If I understood some people like Bit_Arts and gentleclockdriver right, then the new modulation concept is now another part that is not really "complete" and might lead to frustrations of some people in the future.

Please don't get me wrong here, in general, I am all for making Renoise the best sampler there is! However, this to me means also to make it a workable sampler outside of the tracker workflow (that is, making things work live as well and not only in combination with the sequencer and fx commands) and to implement basic things that other samplers have as well. Renoise will then be unique not because it does things entirely different than other samplers, bu because it offers an alternative approach in addition to what all other samplers can do. I think this will be especially important for the upcoming Redux.

#431 XG2003

XG2003

    Chief Above Chief Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 341 posts

Posted 05 January 2014 - 23:57

great stuff, taktik. i can't imagine having to be pulled in a million different directions by the user-base, yet having to remain focused on your own vision. props to you guys. especially for focusing on the sampler so munch in R3. i like that direction. looking forward to upgrading when i get the chance.

thanks for your work. and thanks for making it affordable.


I don't think they are being "pulled in a million different directions"... Slight exaggeration there. I don't mind if the devs have their own vision - but it would be helpful if they SHARED it with us all BEFORE beginning coding! It's literally crazy to just go ahead and implement things which require years of work, without letting everybody know what you are working on. So you're bound to get loads of people who are unhappy.
I'm not unhappy with any of the changes to Renoise 3, I can use it just as well as 2.8, nothing is worse, it's just that for me, nothing is better, because all I wanted was the arranger. (I won't call it 'Buzz Sequence Editor' any more, as that term makes people think I want Buzz, when I don't.)
If you want to increase sales of Renoise, Taktik, maybe you should have implemented the things which were the most wanted - piano roll, audio recording, new arranger, stuff like that. Then you'd see increased sales. You can have a piano roll for those who don't understand trackers, and still have the tracker. Nobody needs to lose out on anything. More people are using VSTis than ever before, so I don't see Redux bringing in much money for you, and the time you spent on that (had you asked us), could have been spent on things most people wanted more than Redux. Hell, I presume none of us knew that Redux even existed until the beta of 3 came out, so how many people were asking for something like it on the forums?

I just knocked up a short song in twenty minutes in Buzz. In Renoise it would have definitely taken me twice as long, as I was writing it and jumping from screen to screen in Buzz, I was thinking to myself 'In Renoise I would be battling with the Pattern Matrix right now, in order to simply put this pattern here, which took me a second in Buzz'.

I don't have anything against any of the improvements in Renoise 3, some I will use, some I won't, but it's the essentials of the interface that you could really help us with - ask us for suggestions, let's debate everything and see what works and what doesn't, listening to objections from everybody, and then make it as streamlined and keyboard friendly as possible. Jumping from the keyboard to the mouse, to get to certain parts of the interface, really slows down songwriting.

#432 Cas

Cas

    Guruh Motha Fakka is Levitating and Knows Everything About Renoise Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1719 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 06 January 2014 - 00:29

Is there a way to keep updated on when new betas or the release comes out? Cause I'm getting sick n tired of some forum habits too now. How about a mailinglist?

Pshh, please.

Lot of your post makes perfect sense but

So calling everybody that has an opinion other than yours a 'weird spoilt fucker without friends and talent that keeps whining and wasting useful forum space' just shows your narrow minded view of the average Renoise user.

He never referenced 'everybody that has an opinion other than mine'. It's very, very far fetched to take that out of the stuff you quoted.

We all get emotional huh? :P
  • Djeroek and .xrns like this

music: SoundCloud drumkits: WizzKit no. 01 (thread), 02 (thread), 03 (thread), 04
tutorials: Beat Creators, Drum Synthesis examples
tools: download@box, info@blog, fork@git, discuss@forum
___________

BCF2000, LP S, MPK, nPad2, nKtrl2, NI KA6, Vortex, SP-404SX

Renoise, NI Reaktor


#433 revo11

revo11

    Chief Above Chief Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 389 posts

Posted 06 January 2014 - 00:37

Thanks for sharing your frank thoughts. In spite of my reservations on redux (as you say, it's probably not aimed at me), let me be clear that I really respect the work of the team and overall I'm inspired by the R3 release.

Like everyone else, I have my own thoughts about the optimal direction but please don't mistake my two cents for the negativity coming from a vocal few.

Something weird happened to this forum lately. Probably helps if I try to explain a bit more in detail why we've done what we've done for r3. Not only as a direct response to you, but more in general to what happens in this forum lately.



#434 td6d

td6d

    Guruh Motha Fakka is Levitating and Knows Everything About Renoise Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1423 posts
  • Location:The Netherlands

Posted 06 January 2014 - 00:40

Is there a way to keep updated on when new betas or the release comes out? Cause I'm getting sick n tired of some forum habits too now. How about a mailinglist?


Lot of your post makes perfect sense but


He never referenced 'everybody that has an opinion other than mine'. It's very, very far fetched to take that out of the stuff you quoted.

We all get emotional huh? Posted Image


Hey, it's either you love it or hate it at the moment apparently, I'm just going with that ;)

- God have mercy on your hipster soul. -


#435 It-Alien

It-Alien

    Probably More God or Borg Than Human Member

  • Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9593 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Avellino, Italy
  • Interests:trackers, basketball, chess, tabletennis, programming, writing, drumming, burping

Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:15

Is there a way to keep updated on when new betas or the release comes out? Cause I'm getting sick n tired of some forum habits too now. How about a mailinglist?


here, lower left, there is a form where to put your email address
  • danoise likes this
my specs:
cpu:Intel Core2 Quad Q9550 (4x2.83Ghz, FSB 1333Mhz)
os:Win7 Home Premium 64bit - OSX 10.9.1 64bit
audio: M-Audio Audiophile 24/96 PCI


Unschemed, hypertechnical tracked music. Sounding different since 1993.

my latest song: Lavender Town Syndrome (11'33", Psychedelic Beast)


where to find more music by me: soundcloud , jamendo , last.fm , napodano.com , facebook

RTFM.gif

("Lavender Town Syndrome, 11'33" Psychedelic Beast)

#436 Carbonthief

Carbonthief

    Guruh Motha Fakka is Levitating and Knows Everything About Renoise Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1084 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:32

The same is true for the Doofer and for phrases which do not really add something "fundamentally" new to the Renoise core features, yes, but they allow you to hide, reuse and share stuff. Either with the community or with yourself.

I think this is a big thing in whole workflow in Renoise, and hope that this new way of "encapsulation" and "sharing" gets a bit more clear when we do release the Renoise library file format and structure. Renoise libraries will be small bundled files, which, when installed, inject instruments, phrases, DSP FX and modulation sets into Renoise. So even when most Renoise users do not want to create complex sampler based instruments with macros, modulation, phrases and stuff, someone else can do this for you, and you can use and play all this in Renoise.


This is precisely what excites me about the future of Renoise 3. The Renoise community has made some absolutely fantastic tools in the past, many specifically for generating xrni's. They had a ton of restrictions but overcame them in clever ways and created some really awesome stuff. Morphsynth, Padsynth, AwesomeSaws, Resynth, tools like this should become absolutely incredible when re-implemented for Renoise 3. There's so much that can be done in the sampler now that couldn't be done before that it's hard to even compare it to how it was before.
  • Garf, Djeroek, KURTZ and 3 others like this

#437 Carbonthief

Carbonthief

    Guruh Motha Fakka is Levitating and Knows Everything About Renoise Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1084 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:42

I just knocked up a short song in twenty minutes in Buzz. In Renoise it would have definitely taken me twice as long, as I was writing it and jumping from screen to screen in Buzz, I was thinking to myself 'In Renoise I would be battling with the Pattern Matrix right now, in order to simply put this pattern here, which took me a second in Buzz'.


I've seen you complain about the pattern matrix several times now, I have to ask: what precisely is "bad" about it to you? It just seems so weird to me, because it was one of the biggest draws to Renoise for me. Of all the trackers I've used Renoise has the most intuitive easy to use pattern matrix hands down. If I write a drum loop, in mere seconds I can clone it, and then drag the bottom down as far as I want it to be, and then any changes I make will be applied to all the clones automatically. I can move patterns around easily, I can middle click to mute a pattern without having to mute the whole track (useful for arranging parts, sometimes muting a part makes it sound better and it's easy to experiment with that in the matrix). All in all the pattern matrix has saved me mountains of time, and I can't possibly fathom what complaint someone could possibly have about it.

In other trackers block chords would be a huge pain in the ass, but Renoise lets you have multiple note columns in a single track, and it will still represent only one box in the pattern matrix keeping it easy as ever to arrange that part.

Other than it simply being different from buzz, what is it you don't like about the pattern matrix?
  • Djeroek and .xrns like this

#438 Djeroek

Djeroek

    Probably More God or Borg Than Human Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 6798 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Borneo

Posted 06 January 2014 - 01:45

He just hasn't spend enough time, learned how to compose in Renoise compared to his old workflow. I've tried Buzz and prefer Renoise, maybe because I haven't spend enough time to learn Buzz.
  • afta8, eeter, f+d+k and 2 others like this

#439 joule

joule

    Guruh Motha Fakka is Levitating and Knows Everything About Renoise Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1863 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling

Posted 06 January 2014 - 02:13

I respect the prioritizing that the devs have made. The tight integration of sequencing and sampler is the Unique Selling Point of a tracker.

Personally I would have preferred if the team didn't focus on polishing what is already good, but instead fixed and added features that are severely lacking. Then moving on to polishing and improving. I think the problem is that some of us have a vision that Renoise could be a full-fledged DAW, while the devs seem to focus on making it a 'techno machine'. The tracker stigma still lives, which is a bit sad to me.

Still, I have gotten great value for my money and I'm still eager to see what will happen in future versions!
  • Djeroek likes this

#440 22tape

22tape

    Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPip
  • 56 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Los Angeles

Posted 06 January 2014 - 04:27

"I don't think they are being "pulled in a million different directions"... Slight exaggeration there."

of course it was an exaggeration. i'm not sure i've ever heard any one ever say "a million" and literally mean "one million".

"I don't mind if the devs have their own vision - but it would be helpful if they SHARED it with us all BEFORE beginning coding!"

see, i think the exact opposite. this is their project/vision. i'm just along for the ride. i bought renoise because it inspired me with it's functionality that it had at my time of purchase. i didn't buy it for 'what it might be someday'. i think that's a big downfall for users and devs alike. if you buy something for a feature that it MIGHT have in the future, you're already doing yourself a disservice. because then it becomes less about making tunes, and more about chasing updates. and that's no fun for anyone. well, in theory it doesn't seem like fun, but these gear boards are flooded with fools who do nothing but take joy in crying "missing features". missing features? RTFM before you buy. if it's not there when you bought it, it's not missing.

"It's literally crazy to just go ahead and implement things which require years of work, without letting everybody know what you are working on. So you're bound to get loads of people who are unhappy."

for me, that's like saying musicians should have to send out their music to their fans before they release it to make sure they like it, before they release it. i'm so glad that doesn't happen. just make your music. if they like it, great. if they don't like it, great. simple.

"If you want to increase sales of Renoise, Taktik, maybe you should have implemented the things which were the most wanted - piano roll"

i can't speak for taktik, but i'd say it's safe to assume that renoise is not a money making venture. sure, it puts food on the table, but it's a passion project above all else. people pay 4x the amount for a single virtual instrument than they do for renoise, which is a whole production environment. if the devs were into making boat loads of cash, they wouldn't be designing a niche product like a tracker to begin with.

"I won't call it 'Buzz Sequence Editor' any more, as that term makes people think I want Buzz..."

"I just knocked up a short song in twenty minutes in Buzz."

"In Renoise I would be battling with the Pattern Matrix right now, in order to simply put this pattern here, which took me a second in Buzz'."

just use buzz, homey! it's a great program.

"I don't have anything against any of the improvements in Renoise 3, some I will use, some I won't, but it's the essentials of the interface that you could really help us with - ask us for suggestions, let's debate everything and see what works and what doesn't, listening to objections from everybody, and then make it as streamlined and keyboard friendly as possible. Jumping from the keyboard to the mouse, to get to certain parts of the interface, really slows down songwriting."

i understand and appreciate this sentiment. unfortunately, democracy rarely works with creative concepts/ideas. the more hands that are in the pot, the longer it will take to cook, and usually the end result will be watered down for the sake of appealing to the masses.

Edited by 22tape, 06 January 2014 - 05:08.

  • Garf, It-Alien, danoise and 6 others like this

#441 hotelsinus

hotelsinus

    Big Daddy Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 415 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hungary
  • Interests:Sound Design music Sound Creatin and how they born.

Posted 06 January 2014 - 10:00

RENOiSE 3 FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :drummer:

#442 pleasuretrail

pleasuretrail

    Super Advanced Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 147 posts

Posted 06 January 2014 - 10:53

people pay 4x the amount for a single virtual instrument than they do for renoise, which is a whole production environment.

Seems like many are forgetting this. If I wanted a DAW with tracker- and piano roll interface and modular routing and direct link to NASA I would expect it from a product costing a lot more. I don't think it's realistic to expect all of these things to come at once. And even if they never come Renoise is still an awesome piece of software, if I really, really wanted these things so badly I would just use a piano roll DAW.

Edited by pleasuretrail, 06 January 2014 - 10:59.

  • Garf, It-Alien and maes like this
I always feel like shoplifting

#443 XG2003

XG2003

    Chief Above Chief Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 341 posts

Posted 06 January 2014 - 11:06

I've seen you complain about the pattern matrix several times now, I have to ask: what precisely is "bad" about it to you? It just seems so weird to me, because it was one of the biggest draws to Renoise for me. Of all the trackers I've used Renoise has the most intuitive easy to use pattern matrix hands down. If I write a drum loop, in mere seconds I can clone it, and then drag the bottom down as far as I want it to be, and then any changes I make will be applied to all the clones automatically. I can move patterns around easily, I can middle click to mute a pattern without having to mute the whole track (useful for arranging parts, sometimes muting a part makes it sound better and it's easy to experiment with that in the matrix). All in all the pattern matrix has saved me mountains of time, and I can't possibly fathom what complaint someone could possibly have about it.

In other trackers block chords would be a huge pain in the ass, but Renoise lets you have multiple note columns in a single track, and it will still represent only one box in the pattern matrix keeping it easy as ever to arrange that part.

Other than it simply being different from buzz, what is it you don't like about the pattern matrix?


You haven't used Buzz, obviously...

Watch this, and read this thread:
http://forum.renoise...post__p__305922

I have explained in HUGE detail what is wrong with the Pattern Matrix. If you haven't used Buzz's Sequence Editor, you don't know what you're missing, and have grown accustomed to doing things the difficult way, yet you think it's perfect!

#444 XG2003

XG2003

    Chief Above Chief Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 341 posts

Posted 06 January 2014 - 11:20

"I don't think they are being "pulled in a million different directions"... Slight exaggeration there."

of course it was an exaggeration. i'm not sure i've ever heard any one ever say "a million" and literally mean "one million".

"I don't mind if the devs have their own vision - but it would be helpful if they SHARED it with us all BEFORE beginning coding!"

see, i think the exact opposite. this is their project/vision. i'm just along for the ride. i bought renoise because it inspired me with it's functionality that it had at my time of purchase. i didn't buy it for 'what it might be someday'.

So you're saying nobody who's paid for Renoise should have a say in how it improves in the future? You're actually saying that "you're just along for the ride"? LOL. So the devs should just blindly do whatever they think is right, and then wonder why so many users don't like what they've spent years working on? Are you presuming that I don't like ANYTHING about Renoise, and only want the Buzz Sequence Editor implemented? LOL


i think that's a big downfall for users and devs alike. if you buy something for a feature that it MIGHT have in the future, you're already doing yourself a disservice. because then it becomes less about making tunes, and more about chasing updates. and that's no fun for anyone.

Yes, of course, I'm always "chasing updates" and not writing songs... LOL
I don't know why you can't understand basic English. The ONLY problem I have with Renoise is the Pattern Matrix. I've come from a superior sequence editor, in Buzz, and the Pattern Matrix is unfortunately much more time consuming and fiddly to use than the Buzz Sequence Editor. That is a fact, I've demonstrated it clearly with videos, very long posts with screenshots, I don't know what else I can do.


well, in theory it doesn't seem like fun, but these gear boards are flooded with fools who do nothing but take joy in crying "missing features". missing features? RTFM before you buy. if it's not there when you bought it, it's not missing.

I haven't seen any posts about "missing features"... LOL

"It's literally crazy to just go ahead and implement things which require years of work, without letting everybody know what you are working on. So you're bound to get loads of people who are unhappy."

for me, that's like saying musicians should have to send out their music to their fans before they release it to make sure they like it, before they release it. i'm so glad that doesn't happen. just make your music. if they like it, great. if they don't like it, great. simple.

This is nothing like that. This is about a TOOL that people USE, not about music, which they listen to... You have a weird and confused view of reality...

"If you want to increase sales of Renoise, Taktik, maybe you should have implemented the things which were the most wanted - piano roll"

i can't speak for taktik, but i'd say it's safe to assume that renoise is not a money making venture. sure, it puts food on the table, but it's a passion project above all else.

More strawmen arguments. Renoise is commercial precisely because it means the devs can AFFORD to spend more time on it. If it weren't commercial, it would be stuck at version 1 probably, and I wouldn't blame them.
You're actually suggesting that adding features that MOST users want is a bad thing! You're literally crazy. Go away and stop ruining things for the majority - who strangely enough, actually want the things they want, implemented in Renoise...

people pay 4x the amount for a single virtual instrument than they do for renoise, which is a whole production environment. if the devs were into making boat loads of cash, they wouldn't be designing a niche product like a tracker to begin with.

Again, this is totally irrelevant. SOME VSTs cost four times the amount of Renoise, plenty don't, I just got Dimension Pro and Rapture for about £15 each from Cakewalk. Stop using strawmen arguments.

Your argument is that because YOU don't care what the devs produce, nobody else should, and paying customers shouldn't be consulted and listened to. Brilliant.

"I won't call it 'Buzz Sequence Editor' any more, as that term makes people think I want Buzz..."

"I just knocked up a short song in twenty minutes in Buzz."

And? I can't use Renoise to write songs very easily because of the Pattern Matrix, so I used Buzz. Which part of "I want to use Renoise with a Buzz Sequence Editor" can't you understand? This is laughable...

"In Renoise I would be battling with the Pattern Matrix right now, in order to simply put this pattern here, which took me a second in Buzz'."

just use buzz, homey! it's a great program.

You must be really terrified of change, mustn't you...

What would be wrong with implementing the Buzz Sequence Editor in Renoise, instead of the Pattern Matrix? Do you even know WHY you're trying to defend it? LOL. On many, many occasions I have asked Renoise users to make videos showing how they use the Pattern Matrix, and showing how they would do stuff I can do in two seconds in Buzz, in the Pattern Matrix. NOBODY has risen to the challenge. So you ALL know that the Pattern Matrix is inefficient and unnecessarily difficult and time consuming to use, yet some of you will defend it to the hilt!

"I don't have anything against any of the improvements in Renoise 3, some I will use, some I won't, but it's the essentials of the interface that you could really help us with - ask us for suggestions, let's debate everything and see what works and what doesn't, listening to objections from everybody, and then make it as streamlined and keyboard friendly as possible. Jumping from the keyboard to the mouse, to get to certain parts of the interface, really slows down songwriting."

i understand and appreciate this sentiment. unfortunately, democracy rarely works with creative concepts/ideas. the more hands that are in the pot, the longer it will take to cook, and usually the end result will be watered down for the sake of appealing to the masses.


Absolute rubbish. But nice try. Please elaborate. So if most users want proper MIDI routing, it would be "watered down"? Why? This is pure conjecture, and that's all you've got...

Seems like many are forgetting this. If I wanted a DAW with tracker- and piano roll interface and modular routing and direct link to NASA I would expect it from a product costing a lot more. I don't think it's realistic to expect all of these things to come at once. And even if they never come Renoise is still an awesome piece of software, if I really, really wanted these things so badly I would just use a piano roll DAW.


How much does Reaper cost for non-commercial use? (That would be MOST users of Renoise, no doubt.)
Who is expecting "all of these things to come at once"? We are complaining because the devs went ahead and did what THEY wanted, and didn't implement what WE wanted. No piano roll DAW offers the Buzz Sequence Editor, so what are you talking about?

#445 XG2003

XG2003

    Chief Above Chief Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 341 posts

Posted 06 January 2014 - 11:36

I felt I had to respond directly to some of the things Taktik said, because they go against everything I thought any group of devs would think about music software they are creating:

If we'd simply stack the most wanted features into a release, can you imagine how this would look like? There must be something which gives the whole thing a shape and rough direction. Lots of compromises have to be made and even if we want, we can't realize everything we'd like to have in one release. This is especially true when dealing with old and bloated software like Renoise. This will sooner or later break the whole thing and only a few people can then actually follow the changes. And even if we wanted to, we could not fulfill everyone's wish in one release.

Then, what is a "needed" feature at all? What is an important feature in music software? What most people want?

Umm... yes. Obviously. What else would it be? What most people DON'T want?

"Insert some feature here" won't make anyone a better musician.


I totally disagree. If software prevents you from doing something easily, it takes you more time, at which point you may have lost the idea you were trying to record, edit, etc. Taking you more time means you may just not bother doing whatever it is that the software makes more difficult for you, and write your music differently. Say you want to record audio and it's difficult in Renoise, you might not be able to write the song you wanted to, because it takes you so much longer, and frustrates you so much, that you can't do it. We only have limited time. Software should be designed to make things as easy and quick as possible, all the time.

In 99.8% of all cases Renoise is not a tool to get a job done, but a tool to help you to inspire you.

Again, I totally disagree, and I'm sure most users of DAWs will disagree. The DAW is a tool, and if the tool is designed in a way that makes life difficult for you, you have to work harder and longer, unnecessarily. That's the MOST irritating part, when users can easily see that they are performing unnecessary actions to do things that should be easy (like having to click through certain screens to access some function or other, etc.)

It's about creativity. An art craft. So whatever we're adding to Renoise, this can only help you to get inspired. And for everything else there are other tools or workarounds, if you really really can not do what you want to archive in Renoise.

There is no workaround for the Pattern Matrix problem. Adding stuff that I never use doesn't inspire me either.


Offering new workflows, new ways of organizing things and "seeing" them differently IMHO is a very important aspect here.

I agree, but how can you know if you're giving your users the workflow and interface they want, if you never showed them what you were working on, until it was finished? All that hard work and you don't even know if it's what people actually want.

It's the same with user interface design: Microsoft have lost billions of dollars because their interface designers came up with 'The Ribbon' the 'Metro', which most users can't stand. They allegedly did 'testing' but obviously the people responsible for interface design at Microsoft have to CHANGE things in order to justify their jobs, so nobody can trust their 'testing' results'. And what was the result? Most people hate Windows 8 because the fools removed the Start button and forced them to use Metro, etc.

Why are so many people waiting for new features for their tool? I think the main reason here is that they got stuck in what they are doing, and hope that feature XYZ finally solves that. It won't.


Again, this is totally wrong and really concerns me. When people are writing music on their computers, they see other DAWs and test them out. They know that DAW 'x' can do so and so, but the DAW they are using can't. They KNOW that their life would be made easier if they had 'so and so' functionality in the DAW they are using. It's nothing to do with being stuck in what they are doing, it's about feeling restricted and hampered when your DAW makes you do things you know aren't necessary, or plain can't do what you want at all (like recording audio, MIDI routing for arpeggiators, etc.etc.)
The issue is that the USERS, and the users alone, can SEE and experience every day what is holding them back in their DAW. I tried FL Studio and while I liked much of it, I can't paste clips in with a mouse, it's laborious and time consuming, and ridiculously slow.


And finally there's Redux now too, which influenced Renoise 3's features and the decisions on what to concentrate on in r3 and what not. The main Redux idea (it actually had a different name back then) was to get the Renoise way of working with samples and patterns into new areas. Allowing people to use trackers where they make sense most. Allowing to combine a tracker with other musical instruments more easily. It's true that this clearly does not target most existing Renoise users here and will disappoint many, but it also brings a program that you all like into new areas. Is this really a bad thing?

Yes - since you devs only have a finite amount of time, and spent it on Redux, rather than adding features to Renoise which would bring in more sales.

Another reason why we wanted to concentrate on Redux, was also to expand into a new market. We're a small team. A very small one actually. Renoise is an extreme niche product while also being a hell to manage. We love what we do, working on Renoise, but we also can't do this job for nothing. So the idea of a new product, Redux, also, even though not primarily, was favored as well in order to keep Renoise alive in the long term.

You can keep Renoise alive by offering the features that users and future users actually want, above all others. It's that simple.


But it's also true that many of those decisions and reasoning is done behind closed curtains, so we clearly should do a better job in communicating them as well.


That is all that I want - let us see what you are planning, don't go ahead with major stuff that takes you months or years to do, without showing us and listening to our input.
Renoise 3 is no worse or better than 2.8 for me, for those who like the new changes, great, I hope they produce great things with them. For now I'm back to Buzz because I can't write songs the way I want to, with the Pattern Matrix.

#446 taktik

taktik

    Renoise Developer

  • Admins
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 15040 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Berlin, Germany
  • Interests:füße waschen

Posted 06 January 2014 - 12:03

You can keep Renoise alive by offering the features that users and future users actually want, above all others. It's that simple.


Even if we would have included the top 10 most features discussed here, this would not have added a Buzz sequencer to Renoise.

You're not talking about what the community wants. You are talking about what you want. This is just fine, really, but please don't claim that you want what all others want and we don't do what others want. This is not fair.

You're also keeping this whole forum busy for a a few days now with your point of view. We got your point. Repeating it over and over and over again does not make it more valid. I'm sorry, but we can't do something for you right now. We won't add a buzz sequencer into Renoise during the beta phase, so this whole discussion does not really help anyone right now.

I'll move all further discussions from you into "your" Buzz thread from now on.
  • Garf, It-Alien, Djeroek and 17 others like this

#447 lwpss

lwpss

    Local Chief Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 207 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Russia

Posted 06 January 2014 - 17:24

For now I'm back to Buzz because I can't write songs the way I want to, with the Pattern Matrix.


Finally. Writing music in DAW you're comfortable with is so much smarter than bothering poor Renoise devs. Glad you made this decision.
  • Garf, It-Alien, Djeroek and 3 others like this

#448 xerxes

xerxes

    Big Masta Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 583 posts

Posted 06 January 2014 - 17:56

Whats all this talk about Buzz? Can we stop talking about Buzz and more about Renoise? Also, for the love of God - can someone on the DEV team do a video on the new features and how they make sense?
  • Djeroek, hmā, KURTZ and 1 other like this
www.xerxes-music.com

#449 novemberist

novemberist

    Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPip
  • 44 posts

Posted 06 January 2014 - 18:06

I'm not a renoise veteran like most of you, but as more or less a newcomer to renoise (and in the field of trackers in general) I have to say, I really really like renoise 3 and find it very appealing to people like me without a lot of experience with audio software (much more so than a lot of other DAWs I have tried so far). I have casually used the Renoise 2.8 trial version in the past and bought my first licence 2 weeks ago. I find renoise 3 very inspiring and appreciate the new features (especially the native convolver, since there's not that many of them on linux). Please keep up the good work, whatever direction renoise developement may take in the future.

Just one question, taktik. Could you give a quick comment on the state of lv2 support for linuxers?
Is it on the agenda at all and can can we expect that to happen at all in the (not so far) future, or have you decided it's just too much work and not worth the effort to implement it right now?

#450 gentleclockdivider

gentleclockdivider

    Guruh Motha Fakka is Levitating and Knows Everything About Renoise Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2885 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:something like a sea or a river...just moving
  • Interests:slacking

Posted 06 January 2014 - 18:23

@ xg 2003 ...dude just spend a few days with only the matrix sequencer ...
The matrix is fast , fluent , etc...I♥ it

It does everything you want it to do , in a different way ...more then enough ...If you can't get over the fact that renoise is not buzz ..you have to make a decicion which program you want to use ..sure ...

Taktik and team ...thanks for putting effort in making renoise a better program ,
But the modulation system needs some rethinking !

THERE IS NO RELIGION SUPERIOR TO THE TRUTH


THERE IS NO TRUTH SUPERIOR TO THE ONE I CHOOSE

C'EST MIEUX D'ETRE BELLE ET REBELLE


QUE MOCHE ET REMOCHE



RUBIO RABIA