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#51 pvcf

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 19:40

I'd really like to see, where a single part related to sound design affects the sequencing interface. Thank you!


i have it done countless times the last days in different threads, because i'm really angry about the actual workflow in version3. i'm to lazy to search it for you, but basically its all about the new instrument/sample window, handling, position and track overlapping screen of instrument/sample window and plugin browser position.
i have detailed described the mouseclick counts and mousekilometers between 2.8 and 3 for most things i usually do in a track. pls search forum for "mousekilometers" if you care in my opinion. i leaved that complete discussion because all answeres i got sounded like from 12 years old like "fuck off" , "newer is always better" and "learn it to use", which is simply totally bald faced.

as far as i can see as musician, soundeditor and tracker designer and programmer, the dev team have spend all afford to create those extreme expanded sample sound design interface and not spend time in composing. now the focus seems more and more in that sounddesign feature than in a track editor usability. for pple who are into instrument design its surely great, but for composers like me, its simply usuless and more uncomfortable handling.
there are also actual totally unneeded changes for example converting volume / panning sliders in number/textfields: for me a absolute no go.

to make my position more clear: i use renoise for profession, not for timewasting frickling on sounds for fun. i just spend livetime in making music to pay bills, and every step in the interface which makes that uncomfortable is a step in the wrong direction (in my eyes, you may see it different, but you may have a different usage of renoise).

Edited by pvcf, 29 December 2013 - 19:48.


#52 Bit_Arts

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 19:57

i have it done countless times the last days in different threads, because i'm really angry about the actual workflow in version3. i'm to lazy to search it for you, but basically its all about the new instrument/sample window, handling, position and track overlapping screen of instrument/sample window and plugin browser position.
i have detailed described the mouseclick counts and mousekilometers between 2.8 and 3 for most things i usually do in a track. pls search forum for "mousekilometers" if you care in my opinion. i leaved that complete discussion because all answeres i got sounded like from 12 years old like "fuck off" , "newer is always better" and "learn it to use", which is simply totally bald faced.

as far as i can see as musician, soundeditor and tracker designer and programmer, the dev team have spend all afford to create those extreme expanded sample sound design interface and not spend time in composing. now the focus seems more and more in that sounddesign feature than in a track editor usability. for pple who are into instrument design its surely great, but for composers like me, its simply usuless and more uncomfortable handling.
there are also actual totally unneeded changes for example converting volume / panning sliders in number/textfields: for me a absolute no go.

to make my position more clear: i use renoise for profession, not for timewasting frickling on sounds for fun. i just spend livetime in making music to pay bills, and every step in the interface which makes that uncomfortable is a step in the wrong direction (in my eyes, you may see it different, but you may have a different usage of renoise).


I share your thoughts about mousekilometers and found the new layout still uncomfortable after dealing with it for a few days. But the truth is, that's in no way related to the sound design features. In fact you can load your instruments and or samples without being forced into the instrument editor or any of its components at any point. Also there is nowhere anything overlapping from the instrument editor with the sequencer / pattern editor, when you don't detach it yourself. Fact.

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#53 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 20:38

Ok some people here assume that renoise is not a synth, but a sampler .
A sampler is bassically a subtractive synthesizer with the exact same modulation sources and desitinations ( except pulse width, but this can be mimicked .) as in a regular subtractive synth , subtractive filtering , layering etc.
The ony diffrerence is that a sampler uses a sample as a sound source , so why not give renoise all the modulation advantages a sampler has ...instead of an arcane modulation scheme .
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#54 pvcf

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 20:39

In fact you can load your instruments and or samples without being forced into the instrument editor or any of its components at any point. Also there is nowhere anything overlapping from the instrument editor with the sequencer / pattern editor, when you don't detach it yourself. Fact.


if i detach it, the overlay window overlays the trackeditor and steel keyfocus. no fact on your side of discussion. in 2.8 the sample instrument settings are in the lower panel, and worked perfect for quickacces volume, panning, tuning. this is now totally uncomfortable, pls stop telling me that this is now same comfortable, its the total opposite, even if you say "fact" two or three times, it doesnt help.
again a thread where i forced to explain detailed the bad workflow, thats why i have written pls search byself for my threads, damn ;)/>/>
i'm out of this discussion, sorry, its a waste of time to explain that again and again and (now ) again.

btw, your signature shows that you possible dont accept different opinions ^^ thats not a good entry point for a discussion with me XD

Edited by pvcf, 29 December 2013 - 20:44.


#55 Bit_Arts

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 21:04

if i detach it, the overlay window overlays the trackeditor and steel keyfocus. no fact on your side of discussion. in 2.8 the sample instrument settings are in the lower panel, and worked perfect for quiackacces volume, panning, tuning. this is now totally uncomfortable, pls stop telling me that this is now same comfortable, its the total opposite, even if you say "fact" two or three times, it doesnt help.


First of all, I haven't told a single word about "this is comfortable". I told the exact opposite. So why are you refering to something none said? Are we reading the same things?

Then you're telling, you detach the instrument editor, to afterwards complain about it being detached and overlayering things. Seriously, WTF? Just don't detach it!

Your problem is a problem with a new layout and has absolutely nothing to do with any sound design features. If this layout wouldn't contain any new features, this also wouldn't help you a single bit. Yes, the quick access has been (re-)moved. But not because of any sound design features. So please, don't blame totally unrelated things for your discomfort.

btw, your signature shows that you possible dont accept different opinions ^^ thats not a good entry point for a discussion with me XD


To me it rather seems you're reading a lot of things none wrote.

Edited by Bit_Arts, 29 December 2013 - 21:09.

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#56 Bit_Arts

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 21:11

Ok some people here assume that renoise is not a synth, but a sampler .
A sampler is bassically a subtractive synthesizer with the exact same modulation sources and desitinations ( except pulse width, but this can be mimicked .) as in a regular subtractive synth , subtractive filtering , layering etc.
The ony diffrerence is that a sampler uses a sample as a sound source , so why not give renoise all the modulation advantages a sampler has ...instead of an arcane modulation scheme .


Man, sometimes it's just good to read normal people. And it becomes even better, when they know what they're talking about. ;)
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#57 thalamus

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 21:25

That's a sample player.

I thought this thread could do with a pedant as well.

;)

Edited by thalamus, 29 December 2013 - 21:26.


#58 Bit_Arts

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 21:32

That's a sample player.


:D It is indeed. But today a sampler usually also is a sample player. ;)

[correction] ... ACTS as sample player :D

I thought this thread could do with a pedant as well.

;)


:lol: You're welcome!

Edited by Bit_Arts, 29 December 2013 - 21:34.

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#59 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 22:13

That's a sample player.

I thought this thread could do with a pedant as well.

Posted Image


My yamaha a5000 can record audio and spread them across keyzones = it's a sampler
Renoise can record and spread the samples across keyzones = it's a sampler
So let's treat it as a sampler / sequencer with all the amazing modulations a sampler can give you .

peace

Edited by gentleclockdivider, 29 December 2013 - 22:15.

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#60 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 22:21

@pcvcf I think you''re a bit confused , this thread is about the modulation system , not about the new gui strucutures and lay out .

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#61 pvcf

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Posted 29 December 2013 - 23:40

@ Bit_Arts

So why are you refering to something none said? Are we reading the same things?


beacuse you wrote this:

Also there is nowhere anything overlapping from the instrument editor with the sequencer / pattern editor, when you don't detach it yourself. Fact.


and if you mean that for renoise 3, my answere seems correct .. ?

#62 Bit_Arts

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 10:52

beacuse you wrote this:
and if you mean that for renoise 3, my answere seems correct .. ?


The only thing stated there is, there's nothing layering, when you don't detach anything. There is nowhere written, it'd be comfortable because of that. It'd be a really good idea to stop reading things, that none wrote. You're starting to leave some strange impression.

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#63 spacecult

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 13:16

Yeah, but... any somewhat specific ideas on how to improve the modulation scheme?

#64 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 14:08

make it les arcane
1( or more ) envelopes( or any modulator) that can be routed to multiple destinations ,as shown in mock up on the first page .
That probably needs a lot of recoding .
But I also think this is the best method

Edited by gentleclockdivider, 30 December 2013 - 14:08.

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#65 Bit_Arts

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 15:57

SCNR


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#66 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 20:19

lol

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#67 Bit_Arts

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 20:26

I've fiddled with a few modulation concepts, and this is one I think would match the requirements pretty well:


Sample -> Modulation Set -> Modulation Source -> Modulation -> Target

Relations:
- Sample -> Modulation Set: 1 -> 1
- Modulation Set -> Source: 1 -> x
- Source -> Modulation: 1 -> x
- Modulation -> Target: x -> x (Multiple Modulations triggering the same Target are summed up, before applied. That'd make something like planned bracket devices obsolete.)


Components:

Modulation Set:
Each Modulation Set holds a list of Modulation sources, each type allowed multiple times.


Modulation Source:
- AHDSR
- Envelope
- Fader
- Key Tracking
- LFO
- Operand
- Velocity Tracking

Required parameters (beside source individual parameters):
None. Each Source provides the full range.

Each Modulation Source holds a list of performed modulations.


Modulation:
Required parameters:
- polarization
- min value
- max value
- operator
- operand
- self modulation (on/off)
- Target

Each Modulation holds a list of targets, as target including parameters[*] of other Modulations from all Modulation Sources.


Target:
- Volume
- Pan
- Pitch
- Cutoff
- Resonance

Required parameters:
- Input

[*]Other Targets:
- Modulation min value
- Modulation max value
- Modulation Operand

Sounds on the first look probably way more complicated, than it has to look like in practice. I think, that'd provide everything necessary to modulate the hell out of it in a very comfortable way.

Edited by Bit_Arts, 30 December 2013 - 20:54.

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#68 danoise

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 21:18

I really like the changes being proposed just above. Still, it won't make the system perfect, but I believe in constructive discussion
Oh, and I do paint. It's not mandatory for alpha testers, though :-)


I hope we get around to actually implement a revised modulation section, now that we have finally reached beta time.


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#69 Bit_Arts

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 21:40

I really like the changes being proposed just above. Still, it won't make the system perfect, but I believe in constructive discussion.

Well, I pointed out the weak points of the current system. I actually think it'd be appropriate to do the same, when you state, my concept wouldn't make the system perfect. I'd really be curious and I'm always willing to learn. ;)

Oh, and I do paint. It's not mandatory for alpha testers, though :-)

I actually meant, it should be "either... or...".

I hope we get around to actually implement a revised modulation section, now that we have finally reached beta time.

Seriously, how? By keeping this one, despite it's exponential redundant and turns usability upside down? As much as I understand none wants to change it anymore - and I really do -, I doubt there's a way around this, when you're going to release something proper.

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#70 vV

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 21:49

Seriously, how? By keeping this one, despite it's exponential redundant and turns usability upside down? As much as I understand none wants to change it anymore - and I really do -, I doubt there's a way around this, when you're going to release something proper.


Well, the way it is visually represented does not mean it is hard to change it code-wise.
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#71 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 21:49

Well when 3.0 goes gold ...a few months later they will announce Renoise 3.1 with a revised modulation section
...
I hope ...
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#72 Bit_Arts

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 21:56

Well, the way it is visually represented does not mean it is hard to change it code-wise.

In this case it absolutely does. Specially the concept makes it redundant. Keeping the visual concept in this case also means keeping the redudant code concept behind it. Otherwise the GUI wouldn't make any sense anymore. Sad fact.

Edited by Bit_Arts, 30 December 2013 - 21:56.

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#73 vV

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 22:22

In this case it absolutely does. Specially the concept makes it redundant. Keeping the visual concept in this case also means keeping the redudant code concept behind it. Otherwise the GUI wouldn't make any sense anymore. Sad fact.


In some way perhaps, but i have programmed stuff that required a load of gui changes but programming technically only swapping of a few variables in the loop and condition spaces, however, we both don't know what is in the source code of Renoise exactly, so this remains pure speculation on both sides ;).
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#74 Bit_Arts

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 23:12

In some way perhaps, but i have programmed stuff that required a load of gui changes but programming technically only swapping of a few variables in the loop and condition spaces, however, we both don't know what is in the source code of Renoise exactly, so this remains pure speculation on both sides ;).


It's not speculation, but pure logics without any need for knowledge of the code.

Anyway, it appears like pointing out obvious malconceptions turns me into the guy understanding everything wrong or not at all. :D Trying to help make this software work in a more proper way is like fighting windmills. Really, if I wouldn't see this myself, I'd think this has to be some kinda comedy.

"Yeah, people. It's Beta-Phase! Pls help us finding bugs and mistakes. Oh, you found a really huge mistake? Crap, fixing that would mean serious work! ^^ Oh, well... erm... it's not a bug. It's supposed to be that way!" :rolleyes:

Edited by Bit_Arts, 30 December 2013 - 23:26.

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#75 danoise

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Posted 30 December 2013 - 23:50

Well, I pointed out the weak points of the current system. I actually think it'd be appropriate to do the same, when you state, my concept wouldn't make the system perfect. I'd really be curious and I'm always willing to learn.

No, that's not it. I'd say that it looks completely reasonable. It's just that I personally have created lots of instruments in Renoise 3.0 (factory content), and I have only been missing something like this on a few occasions.
More often than not, it has been other things, like the free-wheeling LFO that I have missed, because it actually affects the sound that comes out of the speaker. Call me masochistic, or whatever, but I don't mind using copy and paste, as long as I can achieve the desired result.

Also, with an abstracted system like the one you suggest, many instrument types would need a *heck of lot* of freely floating modulations that are then assigned to individual sample aspects. You basically would end up with two large lists instead of one. For example, I'd like you to imagine a complex drumkit with individual modulation for each type of drum? - Here, it seems to be the current system which has the advantage, at least from a GUI point of view


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