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Selecting Phrases with pattern commands..


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#1 thalamus

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 14:28

So this Phrase selection thing, another problem with the implementation as it stands is that if I want to create some LPB 6 Phrases with nice triplets to adorn my vanilla main pattern data and I want several Phrases available, then I have to start using different octaves to trigger those Phrases.

Now the problem here is readability. When you look at your main pattern the melody or whatever you are working on looks completely disjointed. There are some notes there from the main instrument playing the line, then other notes (which are phrases) that are in different octaves.

To be clear, I'm using phrases here to add triplets and other interest to a main melodic instrument that I wish to play in several pitches like any other instrument in the arrangement.


I really do feel like the Phrases/Keyzoning thing needs some consideration because, as it stands, it makes integrating Phrases into the pattern rather confusing when using them melodically.

Edited by thalamus, 29 January 2014 - 14:18.

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#2 Nokatus

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 15:31

I really do feel like the Phrases/Keyzoning thing needs some consideration because, as it stands, it makes integrating Phrases into the pattern rather confusing when using them melodically.


It would be great if phrases could be optionally selectable by a pattern effect command. In other words: which ever actual melodic note you write in the main pattern editor, you could enter an effect command to select any phrase associated with the instrument, and that phrase would then play, transposed according to the melodic note you have entered.

#3 Akiz

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 16:18

It is common that note plays phrases, talkin about vsti isntruments. What Renoise can do is play phrases and play also notes, it is good. I understand that effect command would be more logical but on the other hand i think that effect channel should be free for further processing of pattern (wanna more commands than backward playing like play notes in sequence randomly, play pattern twice a fast etc).
With 2 screens i dont find difficult to check what is actually playing...

#4 Nokatus

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 18:16

I understand that effect command would be more logical but on the other hand i think that effect channel should be free for further processing of pattern


Hmm, you can already just click the little "+" icon and you get another effect column for the same track. And another... And another ;)... So it's not a case of an effects column being "free" or not, in my opinion.

To recap, phrases would work exactly like they do now, but if you use the effect code, the phrase would be chosen according to the given value, not the note being played. This, as an alternative way of choosing any phrase associated with the instrument, would be true to the tracker ethos and expand the possibilities of phrases a lot. And it wouldn't take anything away from anyone.

If you were so inclined, you would be able to define a bank of different phrases, triggering them transposed to different reference pitches, but you wouldn't be limited to one phrase per note, and the actual note values in your patterns would still stay logical from a musical point of view. Again, this would be an alternative way of choosing a phrase, not taking away from the way things work now.

#5 Akiz

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 18:22

You´re right...

#6 Nokatus

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 18:28

Cheers B)

#7 thalamus

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Posted 27 January 2014 - 18:30

And you would be free to transpose the Phrase over the entire key range, just as you can with a VSTi or a loaded sample. Whereas if the Phrase is bound to a keyzone, it's pitch range is also bound.

#8 thalamus

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 06:52

Hmm, you can already just click the little "+" icon and you get another effect column for the same track. And another... And another ;)/>/>/>/>... So it's not a case of an effects column being "free" or not, in my opinion.

To recap, phrases would work exactly like they do now, but if you use the effect code, the phrase would be chosen according to the given value, not the note being played. This, as an alternative way of choosing any phrase associated with the instrument, would be true to the tracker ethos and expand the possibilities of phrases a lot. And it wouldn't take anything away from anyone.

If you were so inclined, you would be able to define a bank of different phrases, triggering them transposed to different reference pitches, but you wouldn't be limited to one phrase per note, and the actual note values in your patterns would still stay logical from a musical point of view. Again, this would be an alternative way of choosing a phrase, not taking away from the way things work now.


This exactly.
You want to be able to transpose Phrases freely, using them just as you would use a straight instrument. That is very limited currently. The more Phrases you use, the smaller your available pitch range becomes. And also the pattern data becomes hard to read because the octaves used are not rational... You're writing a line in octave 4 and want to use a phrase that is stored way down on octave 0.. It's the same pitch inside the Phrase but to read in the Pattern it looks like the note is way lower.

It's awkward.

Edited by thalamus, 28 January 2014 - 06:59.


#9 Nokatus

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 17:52

Agreed. My current workaround, when testing phrases, has been using only one phrase per instrument, full range, and duplicating the whole instrument as many times as I want to have different fully transposable phrases. This is... less than optimal :lol:

Would love to see this implemented.

Btw, I suggest changing the thread title to something a bit more informative so that the idea catches the eye on the forum level instead of having to click the topic and see what it's about. Something like "Choosing instrument phrases using a pattern effect command", for example.

Edited by Nokatus, 28 January 2014 - 17:54.

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#10 thalamus

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Posted 28 January 2014 - 18:29

Agreed. My current workaround, when testing phrases, has been using only one phrase per instrument, full range, and duplicating the whole instrument as many times as I want to have different fully transposable phrases. This is... less than optimal :lol:/>

Would love to see this implemented.

Btw, I suggest changing the thread title to something a bit more informative so that the idea catches the eye on the forum level instead of having to click the topic and see what it's about. Something like "Choosing instrument phrases using a pattern effect command", for example.


You could use alias' also - if using VSTi

#11 thalamus

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:17

Btw, I suggest changing the thread title to something a bit more informative so that the idea catches the eye on the forum level instead of having to click the topic and see what it's about. Something like "Choosing instrument phrases using a pattern effect command", for example.



Theres a thread here that likes to sink to the bottom of the sea, slowly ;)

http://forum.renoise...ection-thereof/

#12 danoise

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 12:33

Btw, I suggest changing the thread title to something a bit more informative so that the idea catches the eye on the forum level instead of having to click the topic and see what it's about.

I agree that the current title is "less than informative". Renoise is missing/has many tricks!
Think I've wandered into this discussion three times without remembering what it was about.

@thalamus: I won't change the topic title, but I'd like to show you how: if you edit your first post with the "full editor", the title should become editable too...

Theres a thread here that likes to sink to the bottom of the sea, slowly

Added to my list of suggestions for R3 Posted Image

Tracking with Stuff. API wishlist | Soundcloud


#13 thalamus

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Posted 29 January 2014 - 14:19

I agree that the current title is "less than informative". Renoise is missing/has many tricks!
Think I've wandered into this discussion three times without remembering what it was about.

@thalamus: I won't change the topic title, but I'd like to show you how: if you edit your first post with the "full editor", the title should become editable too...


Added to my list of suggestions for R3 Posted Image


Thanks for that :) Done.

#14 Nokatus

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Posted 30 January 2014 - 02:44

Thanks guys, and oh man, I hadn't seen the other thread of yours, thalamus! It sums this up very nicely. Basically, I said the exact same things here without knowing that you've said them just a little while ago. So we are most certainly in agreement here! :)