Renoise or Moog VST Editor bug - I don't know yet

Help, Support & Bugs
1

Hey, I’m going nuts about a certain issue with the Moog Sub Phatty synth I got over a year ago,
and I don’t know yet if my troubles origin in the VST editor that comes with the synth, or Renoise’s handling of it.
So I’m just throwing it out here, in case someone else has experienced anyhing similar, either with Moog or with any other VI editor vs. hardware.
Response on the Moog Forum is also incredibly slow, and since I’m the only one using Renoise of the users over there, it’s hard to compare results.

Problem:
Moog has developed a VSTi Editor that communicates directly with the hardware synth, so that I can automate parameters on the synth directly via regular automation in Renoise,
without the need for the cumbersome MIDI CC setups. But whenever I automate more than 2 parameters, let’s say I want to automate Noise Level on top of both Osc1 level and Osc2 level, it all turns into a crazy random circus. Tempo drops, notes come and go, gets stuck, and whatnot. And it doesn’t matter which of the 70-100 parameters I try to do this with.

My guess is of course that this is related to the VSTi Editor or firmware in the synth, but since I have not yet encountered other users with this problem I thought I should ask here as well.

Any thoughts? Is there anything in Renoise (v3) that could cause this behaviour that other DAWs handle differently?
Any other Renoise users with a Moog Sub Phatty?

2

Well, I don’t know if it is too late, but I just saw this and I have both the Sub Phatty and Renoise, so I am able to help. What is your username at Moog’s forum?

Are you still having problems on the latest firmware and software version?

3

hi bichuelo, thanks for reaching out!
I’m very interested in hearing about your setup and how/if you managed to create a smooth working environment with the Phatty Editor :slight_smile:

And yup, I’m still experiencing many of the same issues as before, and i’ve have tested everything I can think of to make the bugs go away.
So last week I kind of decided to give up on the whole plugin and just stick to traditional CC midi automation instead. But of course, if we could work this out I’d love to use the Editor instead.

Ok, so the most critical issue I have is regarding automation in Renoise, using the Sub Phatty VSTi (instrument) Editor plugin:
If I automate more than ONE parameter at the same time, the playback timing gets all weird.
Example:

  • pattern 1 has automation for filter cutoff only = works fine
  • pattern 2 has automation for filter cutoff + resonance = playback of the Phatty starts dropping in tempo / can’t keep up with the renoise bpm
  • pattern 3 has automation for filter cutoff + resonance + noise level = tempo drops even more, to around HALF of the tempo renoise is running
    … and it goes on like this, the more I automate, the more it all goes out sync.

And here’s what i’ve tested to try to find the problem:

  • different firmware versions (now running the latest)
  • different moog editor versions (now running latest)
  • tested both the VST and the VI-version of the various plugin versions
  • runned the phatty via usb only vs. midi cables only vs. both/combination
  • different usb cables
  • different usb ports and hubs (usb 2.0 vs. 3.0)
  • different settings in the Editor preferences
  • different settings, speeds, TPL’s and whatnot in renoise
  • older versions of renoise

… but without any luck. and I’ve also talked to Moog and their developer about these issues, but they have only sent me new beta versions of the editor that have the exact same problems, a dedicated USB-driver that didn’t work at all, and so on. and i kinda feel that they don’t prioritize further development on this.

what i DO KNOW, is that it is NOT usb-related after all (which I first suspected). last week I tried running the editor using only DIN MIDI through a midi interface, and it behaved the same way.

btw - the standalone version of the Editor works perfect. It’s just the VSTi / VST stuff thats acting weird.

Can you reproduce this problem in Renoise?
And if not, what kind of OS/setup do you have?

I’m running Win7 64-bit, Renoise 3.0 64-bit, and 64-bit versions of the plugins.

Really appreciate your help, man!

4

Alright!

Let me try all that before I get back to you, and see if I can reproduce the problem in my computers. I currently have Win7 64-bits, Mavericks 64-bit, an old Snow Leopard and a couple of WinXP 'chines.

I understand you have a CC template for the Sub Phatty on Renoise? Is there a way to share it?

5

I tested it briefly and I found that something is not right!

If Local is OFF (are you turning local OFF?), the editor shouldn’t update any parameters when they are sent from the synth, but both Pitch and Mod wheels do it (via USB port). Maybe some more do.

In other words, I think the Local function does not turn everything OFF when it should. Some data is feeding back when you use the editor, this makes a feedback loop and the synth goes nuts.

Please tell me if this makes sense and if you are able to reproduce it.

6

hey, ok I’ll test more with local on vs. off as soon as I have time. If I remember correctly I have tested this before, but I’ll look into it again.

Btw - how does automation work for you when using the Editor. Can you automate more than 2-3 parameters at the same time in Renoise without losing tempo sync?

7

I tried to automate the Editor when loaded as an instrument, but I don’t know how to. I am a begginer at Renoise actually…

Even though, I was able to automate several Sub Phatty’s parameters using renoise’s native tracks without any hiccups.

I don’t know how to to do it using the editor.

Frankly, I think it is just jitter. That is, the more events you send through MIDI/USB cables, the more likely it will fail. Don’t send too much info, any MIDI setup will fail if you do.

8

well, by using midi only in renoise i can automate like 70 parameters on the sub phatty without problems.
but doing the same when using the Editor VSTi or VST and the DSP automation device it fails after 2-3 parameters. Both when using midi or usb.
So there is definitely something wrong with the Editor or the way it handles data.
Moog support has stopped responding as well, so I’ll just stick to the oldskool way for now, without the Editor.

9

I want to help anyway.

Can you teach me how to automate the plugin’s parameters?

I do find that if I use the USB’s port for both the plugin and the MIDI tab, there is a conflict. I also think that when you switch off the Local control, the Mod and Pitch wheels don’t turn off, and this is making some sort of feedback.

Thanks for sending me a link, or a file, so I am able to check your workflow

10

hey, here you go: https://copy.com/I0d6t2T1PJcMqNo0

it’s the DSP chain I am using for automation for the phatty (incl. doofers and parameters).

  • activate the doofers you want to use, and assign all MIDI-devices in the doofers to the renoise instrument/instance number where you have your MIDI instrument (assigned to the phatty),
  • you don’t need to turn local OFF with this setup
  • midimap all available knobs on the phatty to the corresponding doofer knobs if you like
  • you can now automate either just using renoise and the doofers, or via the phatty knobs

hope that helps you!