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Different kind of Looper for testing practicing and inspirations?

workflow inspiration practice instruments testing noobs learning plugin

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#1 Jupelius

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Posted 17 June 2015 - 22:18

Just a suggestion, if somebody is interestet of making a plugin, or if renoise would welcome this kind of feature.

(Seems renoise team already have under development similar "noodletrap" plugin... Still i like my idea more)

 

Basicly a testing area for instruments, where it would be a constant loop, recording for every keystrokes. So you could reproduce every inspirational melodies, what you came up, as you are tweaking your instrument. Meaning it would literally remember your natural beat of sound as you play them. (in millisecond precision, not Ticks or BPM).

 

(just skip all boring indent text to issue itself ^_^ )

It would not save them in any way to harddisk, just keeps one constant minute loop in memory alltime. It would also help you not to go sidetracks in music making. As it would help examing your earlier inspirational melody, instead of trying to reproduce it yourself multiple of times.


You could call it a "Garage" or something, as musicians often practises those kind of places...


Main purpose for this would be testing instrument, beats and sounds. Also basic rythmic learning and training could be easily managet with this. It would save your natural rythm in milliseconds. Not in ticks or bpm
(beats per minutes)...

 

Well, i dont know, if there is anything like this already in some softwares. Or similar things, so this might be a stypid idea, or an unique idea. Its weird, as i thought this would be regular thing in all music software workflows... But im not so much of musician, just trying to make game musics So im not familiar with many music softwares.


So it would not need to have direct compatible with pattern editor. As it would not be intendent to record any sessions. It should only remember things, and forget them as you go on. So no millions of junk data to build things... As my friend suggested that i could record audio, but that would be insane to do always when trying instrument.

 

Like when you are just testing tweaking or testing new instrument and dont want to record every bit of testing. Sometimes with these kind of tweaking and testing, you many times accidenttally create a owesome beats in the side, but you might not remeber them correctly afterwards, as they where totally intuitive testing, when just jamming with instrument.

Im suggesting this idea, because im not intresting to move from game programming to music softwares. But i hope other people would like the idea too, so that somebody would actually make something like this

 

Im only an hobbyist game programmer, so bear with me
This is how i see the functions:


--Loop
It would record a constant circling loop in milliseconds (not in BPM or Ticks). It would overwrite notes and effects in next round.

You could define how many seconds/minutes the loop would be. Normally loop would be like, 10-30 seconds.

(like piano roll)
 

-Timeline
Would not need any pattern like timeline. Just some indicator about where it goes. Digital second display would be enought.

As im more interesting to examine and testing instrument and melodys.

Only after that, i would want to reproduce it in pattern editorn to clean and precision version.

 

-Silent
Option to choose,
does it play the old notes, as its rewrites them. Easy way to keep repeating and fining your melody, and not get so easily to sidetracks.

 

--Fold loop
How many times the loop would "fold". If you want to play "looper" style with yourself. Meaning that it would clean only on third round in loop.

Thatway it would remember two last round. But instead of making many loops, you could just make multiple "play points". So it would just play longer loop from 3 different points.

And last point would overwrite notes.

Thisway it would be clean and no hassle for developer or user. It would be easy to fold intantly your loop 6 times and try overlay notes.

 

-Instruments
You could use any instrument,
that are available in your track. Should work with midi input and Redux like plugins.

 

-Multi instruments
Would be greate to be able to use two instrument together somehow.
Like assining midi input to certain instruments to play with many instruments.

--Notes /  Virtual pianokeys / Visual indicator
 

I would prefer to save the actually keypressing and milliseconds from them. Also the same with midi device. This way it would not chance the natural ryhtm of yous playings. As many times you might make notes offbeat, but they still sound good, and you would want to examine why they sound good. Rather than forcing it to be in somekind of beat. Offcourse "ticks" are quite short to notice major difference, but still...
 

Something like "scifi styled informational pianokeys feedback"

Piano keys would show how long you pressed them and volume and all other things.

 

Other reason why i would prefer to show the playback with pianokeys, is because sometimes you get a great beat, but it isnt actually the pattern that is awesome, its the instrument itself.

Like some insrtuments just blends differently than others. So its inportand to get much of same feedback from earlier playtrought. For after examing.

 

(And these are the moments, when i think i have wasted many inspirational beats and things, that i havent be abel to recreate)

 

I would prefer visual indicator for notes. But it would not need to show the actual tracker styled pattern.

Because tracker style is not visually intuitive to examine your melodys. Of course it gives you the understand of your basebeat.

But thats not nessessercly where you want to focus.

Pure informational feedback is more inportand, becouse you can choose what kind of information you want to examine.

 

When working abstract music, which is normal to tracker, there is so many things to consider, what makes good music.

So focusing only notes and beats are not so good thing. You should examine how your instrument behaviour works in whatkind of beat.
 

-Lock
"Lock" or "freeze" feature, where you can examine loop,
and not accidentally lost anything.

Also with "lock on", you could reherse the same part over and over again with your original jamming. So you could get hangon the beat and recreate buntch of similar beats in your head, for your song. So instead of stuck with one melody, You could keep it be a foundation inspiration to bunch of samekind melodys.

 

-Practise
Make a short melody, then but "lock" on. Now you can try duetto with yourself as long as you have perfect syncht with yourself. Thatway eventually the beat have made in the back of you brain So if you would be like a DJ, you could train yourself thatway, while testing and tweaking your instruments.


-Play
back
Of course playback option...

When the loop is on lock mode, you can just play the short loop if you want to listen and examine the melody you accidentally made.

if there is any interesting things to recreate in regular pattern editor.

You want to play certain part slower to examine it and desing effects.

 

You could alternate by playing your pattern editor, and then play you freeced loop, and try figuring what missing from the pattern editorn! Reason why thisway, and not directly to copypaste option, would be that thisway, you would get clean audio mix in pattern editor, as everyhing would be consideret more carefully.

-Record
It would not have record button, as it should be integrated to work with sampler.

-Background mode
Choose how long the autorecord would be, if the testing area would not be focused, but instead like redux or regular sampler would be focused. So it would not take so much of memory, but you could still jump to it. Meaning, if you would normally use 5 minutes loops, so in the background you would want to set it to only like 20 seconds...

-Break
Time how long, not pressing keys, the loop would automatically stop. So if you would keep the loop in background with 1 minute loop, and go to coffee, and then play a couple of notes. Your loop would have a one minute of content, instead of two notes

-Beat
Possibly a background beat option, so you could test your new instrument with familiar rythms in background.

-Midi input
Midi input support, as i have "QuNeo" myself, it would be handy to use that. Also it would be great to play with QuNeo and see whatkind of notes im actyally generating, when it sounds good. As i often forget to watch the notes, or even remember how my notes are on QuNeo

--Effects
One idea would be to make also experiement area to mix effects to instruments.
So basicly altering your instrument without altering the actual instrument. You would tweak a replica! Then you could go wild and crazy with every instrument in the spot. Especially its always hassle to duplicate instrument yourself, and implement it top off previous instrument. Its hassle also to get it to previous state, if you have tweaked something else between. Also you could test track effects without messing with your tracks.

So that was it!

I dont mean, it would need to be a composer... More like a learning, testing and inspiration capture place. This is how im trying to set my workflow beginning. Its shame, that i cant think any intuitive naturally easy way of doing this now in renoise. Im new to any kind of paid music softwares, so i doesnt know the standarts.

 


It could be plugin, or just feature to renoise or redux.
As the "redux" was a bit dissapointment, becouse for me it didint give me much more than renoise already. As i want to greate my instruments also from scratch

Could be simple to even impelent this to being "test looper" to the already existing pianokeys in the renoise. It could have its own short loop memory for this kind of testing, it would be enought for me

 

Now my solution is actually been, that i have realtime macro recorder for my keyboard And if i want to reproduce the melody, i can just see what keys i have pressed and milliseconds. Or i can play the macro if i want. But i need to isolate the right spot first... Its still some unnessesserly hassle But wont miss inspirational intuitive random melodys if when making new instruments

My musician vocabulary can be a bit weak. So if im causing any confusion, then sorry about that
It would also lower musicians learning curve for all the noobs

 

 

edited post to be shorter and clearer... strikethroughted unnecessary mentions

 

And now i realize that my suggestion would be almost a "noodletrap" in milliseconds system.

Still, there would be a big advanced to make it in milliseconds, as i explain later on...

Or i have just been get used to poor music softwares before.

 

Should have just posted this under noodletrap discussions ;)


Edited by Jupelius, 19 June 2015 - 01:28.


#2 toblerpone

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 06:51

Wow much text, too much to read, stopped at 70%

But what it seems is what your looking for is almost any other daw with a piano roll and proper (renoise does not, let's be honest here) overwriting, takes etc. :c

I use Cubase and I think it has one thing that you want that other daws may not necessarily have - Retrospective record.

Of course you could just use the take system (creates a new take on every loop you record, discards it if y an z etc) that is normally in piano roll daws.

 

We have noodletrap though.


Edited by toblerpone, 02 April 2016 - 14:29.


#3 danoise

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 11:31

We have noodletrap though.


Yep, that's what I thought  :) 

 

Actually, most of the stuff on this list is practical ideas that can be realized with tools. 

 
But especially Noodletrap would be interesting, as it is an exploration of a new kind of recording workflow.
Right now, it just does notes. But it's highly configurable - decide when to start/stop recording via various criteria. 

 

I just need to get off my lazy a** and fix a few issues that has been reported.


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#4 Jupelius

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Posted 18 June 2015 - 23:29

Sorry for long text, I just wanted to "wrap" the idea with good system, as im constantly thinking for good solutions and beyond.
Just get get carried away, and im not so good at shortening text ;)
 
Retrospective record system sounds quite right what i initially needed. New word for me. So now i know better what to look for. Altought im sticking with Renoise as i bought it, so its renoise, or some free software then :)
Still, as i think of it, its still not meet exact requirement what i want do accomplish.
 
I dont know other way of saying it, but the "natural rythm" is important. If software corrects your notes to TICKS, its out of your intended beat.
And im not yet to figure out a way to do it in renoise.
But i do like tracker programs and want to stick with them...
 
Im familiar with some pianorolls. But i think they correct your playing out off your natural beat synch.
Im wanting to get visual indication of how my notes are played at my natural rythm. If my notes are offset few milliseconds there and here, to make it sound good, then thats how i want it to sound.

Not meaning that i would kept it thatway, So figurin out myself, how to correct the milliseconds displacement, and keep the right feeling.

Sometimes solution might be even a placing new note between notes, to brake the pattern just right way. Sometimes just small fade effect do the trick.
 
-So if software forces me to draft a track to exact beat, its constricts my creativity just a critical degree too much.
-If software corrects milliseconds to Ticks, it breaks the sound.
-If you make your music out of basebeat, to just get it sound good. Its not so harmonic anymore.
 
Even excellent abstract music is just harmonic wavelengts to brain to process it then psychologically.
So to make great abstract music, you need a real chaos, where you can search in unlimited inspiration without any constricts.
Then you examine things and learn what they are. In the end you just reproduce that in harmonically, to make it seems to be abstract.
And there you have it! The more things you can build on top of each other, without making it just a noise, the better it will be.
 
This whole idea, might be a thing, that talented musicians does naturally. But for me its quite obstacle to surpass!

And for all the noobs and people that have some talent of music or interested music making, but get stuck to beging, there should be tools to cross over this kind of gap (nonlinear to linear)!
 
Im always yearning the most importand aspects of any workflow, the intuitive freedom to be inspirational :)
 
 
I did try noodletrap and its somewhat that i need. :walkman:
 
Some reason i dont get the "noodletrap" to repeat my playing at all as it initially sounds, when im using playback. Its just sound so awkward when it plays it back.
Might be settings... But good tutorial would be great, as i didint find even a help file.
 
If im not mistaken, renoise will react initially to all the keystrokes in milliseconds, but records them in any pattern by Ticks?
I could chance track settings to be very precise, but I prefer to learn how to compose things in regular beat, without deforming intendent feeling of music.
So that projects keeps being simple and i can throw more things to it, without turning it to frankenstein science project.
 
Have to say, i just lost many good inspirational rythms when fiddling with noodletrap settings. :/
 
 
Does any midi product have an retrospective record system?
Im not interest saving any loops. Just that it would constantly keep record of my notes :)

I could also try some midi softwares, but im not so intrested to learn midioutput...

 



#5 toblerpone

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 11:57

Renoise 'saves' data to pattern at a resolution of 256 points in a line, so quite obviously not the ticks you're thinking of, but all daws save in their own ticks, the rate is different and usually selectable (search for ppqn on the internet). (are you using live quantise by any chance?)

 

Spoiler

 

You'll have to find out yourself about retrospective record.

 

Btw, the resolution of renoise note recording at 120BPM, 4 Lines Per Beat is 0.4ms.

Maybe you could give us an xrns to see what may be the issues you're dealing with along with your audio settings in the preferences and midi preferences and a screenshot of your pattern editor.

also, recording by pc keyboard will introduce some lag as it is processed in the gui thread so if it lags, so will the input


Edited by toblerpone, 02 April 2016 - 14:29.


#6 danoise

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Posted 19 June 2015 - 13:33

Another tool that I always keep installed is AutoClonePatterns:
http://www.renoise.c...-clone-patterns

 

It basically gives you a Renoise-flavored "take" system. It works by "padding" the looped section for you for as long as you are recording. When done, you can edit, throw away parts you don't like. 

 

I did try noodletrap and its somewhat that i need. :walkman:
 
Some reason i dont get the "noodletrap" to repeat my playing at all as it initially sounds, when im using playback. Its just sound so awkward when it plays it back.
Might be settings... But good tutorial would be great, as i didint find even a help file.
 
If im not mistaken, renoise will react initially to all the keystrokes in milliseconds, but records them in any pattern by Ticks?

 
If you are using the PC keyboard to record stuff in Noodletrap, this can easily be improved by using a MIDI keyboard.
The PC keyboard support is a bit of a hack - it works fine, as long as you are pressing one key at a time, but really, the API does not allow me to capture multiple, overlapping keys with proper timing. So, MIDI keys are highly recommended. 
 
As far as the timing goes, the tool agrees with you - it will never quantize the time in the recordings, which means they are precise within a 256th of a line. So you should be fine, even when recording as slow as LPB = 1. 
 
As far as documentation goes, I basically wrote the tool to suit my own needs, and still need to write some proper documentation for it. Hrhm...


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#7 Jupelius

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 19:16

Well, i propably just need to rethink my approach. Play with the plugins, find some piano rolls and extend from that...

I still envision to have cheap software that makes my whole workflow under same software.

Maybe thats a daydream :)

 

I think i just have to find my own way to do things... As always :)

Same with the pixelart game graphics, i started to program my own graphic editor first :P

But i still leave the music software programmin to people who knows those things better...

 

But thanks for the informative feedback! :)

Atleast im now more informative at musical terminology in english, if not else...



#8 toblerpone

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Posted 30 June 2015 - 19:28

traktion 4 is free,  (you should really record in loops and stop recording when you think you like the loop)


Edited by toblerpone, 02 April 2016 - 14:29.






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