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[fixed 3.1] Rendering Separate Tracks, PDC and Groups

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#1 Meef Chaloin

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 18:54

I decided I would try to mix a track in ardour rather than renoise and it seems that it is not very easy to do. I have drums grouped with some fx on so I wanted to export the individual drum tracks and the grouped track and do phase cancellation to give me just the fx but this didn't work. I found that the individual tracks were playing early and the group was playing at the right time.

OxwwnZP.png

 

So what's the solution for this? I know I can turn off PDC and export the individual tracks but I only noticed this because they are drums and easy to see the transients. Is there a rule when I would to do this? Is this even the correct or best way to solve this? Seems really messy to me.

 

I understand that PDC would do this for playback but it can't be right that when exporting all the tracks as separate files that PDC's work should cause this. I

 

I've attached a simple example but it's not necessary, it's quite clear what is happening.

Attached Files

  • Attached File  pdc.xrns   429.05KB   115 downloads

Edited by Meef Chaloin, 14 August 2015 - 00:06.


#2 ffx

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 21:58

how did you export these single drum tracks? hand-by-hand?    I think i didn't get what you did ... :)    You send from each drum track to a send, some wet fx like reverb?   or you are trying to subtract the original drum track from the send track, which is a sum (not a wet fx) ?   What fx is on that send?

 

Maybe it helps to mute before post (using a gain to -inf) , not to disable tracks (and influence pdc maybe)?


Edited by Jurek, 13 August 2015 - 21:58.


#3 Meef Chaloin

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 22:10

If you look at the example xrns I posted the issue can be replicated very easily and simply. Create a track with a drum hit, put it in a group. Put something like a convolver on the group, render the project choosing to render each track to a separate file. What you get is impossible to work with however you do it, with pdc enabled you get out drum kit track early, without pdc you of course get the group track late because of the convolver latency. In my particular case I had a convolver and a filter on my drum group, I want to remove the dry drums from the group channel so I just have the filter and the reverb. This is beside the point though.



#4 cupcake

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 23:36

What exactly is going on here? I don't quite understand.// 

 

Is this a problem that only arises when the tracks are rendered for use outside?



#5 Meef Chaloin

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Posted 13 August 2015 - 23:58

What exactly is going on here? I don't quite understand.// 

 

Is this a problem that only arises when the tracks are rendered for use outside?

 

Yes, rendering as separate tracks gives you useless files. PDC shouldn't be applied to the individual tracks when rendering in this way because there are no circumstances when you would want individual channels to be rendered as PDC plays them in real time, earlier than they should be, the tracks cannot be used for anything. The group track needs PDC applied when rendering, but only the group track.


Edited by Meef Chaloin, 13 August 2015 - 23:59.


#6 toblerpone

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Posted 14 August 2015 - 10:22

While you're waiting for 3.1. Here's what you should try, have some 'padding' patterns in the front from which you will begin rendering, as very high delays take time to be compensated (you can check it with the native hidden plugin delay device), (I haven't checked this new .xrns to confirm if you have plugins that would normally use very high delays to be compensated, but I don't think so),

 

however I'm still almost sure this can be avoided if you remake the xrns without copy pasting the PDCed external plugins as they have formed a bug in themselves and 'broke' the xrns a bit.



#7 ffx

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Posted 14 August 2015 - 11:25

Since only fx on groups seem to be affected, you could try not to put any fx on groups, instead either the group or the tracks itselfes send to a sum using send device, and put sum fx there.... As a workaround maybe.

#8 Meef Chaloin

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Posted 14 August 2015 - 14:21

While you're waiting for 3.1. Here's what you should try, have some 'padding' patterns in the front from which you will begin rendering, as very high delays take time to be compensated (you can check it with the native hidden plugin delay device), (I haven't checked this new .xrns to confirm if you have plugins that would normally use very high delays to be compensated, but I don't think so)

 I don't really understand your post. The problem isn't that pdc isn't working or compensating, it is compensating and that is the problem. I just tried putting about 20 seconds of empty padding before a pattern started and it does the same thing.
 

however I'm still almost sure this can be avoided if you remake the xrns without copy pasting the PDCed external plugins as they have formed a bug in themselves and 'broke' the xrns a bit.


 I don't understand this either, I'm sorry. You can replicate it yourself, one track, group it, put a pdc inducing plugin (such as convolver) on the group, render tracks individually. This is with internal plugins.
 

Since only fx on groups seem to be affected, you could try not to put any fx on groups, instead either the group or the tracks itselfes send to a sum using send device, and put sum fx there.... As a workaround maybe.

Yes that seems to work actually, thanks. I was a bit hesitant to even try working with it like this because I wasn't sure about the extent of the problem but it does appear to only be groups and your idea should be fairly easy to implement for songs already written.



#9 toblerpone

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Posted 14 August 2015 - 14:42

Ok, I had some time to test it with the PDC test device directly, this is a real renoise bug and pertains to group tracks specifically, so yes, use what jurek suggested with the send tracks for now.


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#10 ffx

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 13:39

maybe i was too tired, but it seems to me that pdc also doesnt work correctly in group while live... Could the devs take a look on it? thank you



#11 toblerpone

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 13:55

^seems to work fine I think

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#12 taktik

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Posted 21 August 2015 - 22:19

Yes, the problem only happens when rendering and only in the "separate tracks" mode with groups which have FX that introduce latency.

 

When rendering, we're additionally saving out wav files for tracks which are actually already present in the group's output. Those are never audible in playback as they are part of the group track's signal already. 

 

I'm currently looking for a solution to properly compensate delays for those extra rendered stems too. Of course they should be properly compensated when we're offering that as a "feature". Simply never have stumbled upon that problem so far...


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