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Locking pitch for samples in phrases with sample column enabled

key pitch

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#1 the dreammer

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 00:38

In 3.1b5 and 3.1b6: 

I made a phrase.. with a synth sample.. a kick a hihat and a snare.

The synth does have the key->pitch button activated in the keyzones editorpart of the sample-editor.

the kick, the hihat and the snare however, have it DEactivated.. 

 

now i program a cheesy pattern as a phrase . and start to play with it. in the main sequence-editor

The synth-sample does transpose like it should (hooray)..
but the kick, the snare, and the hihat ALSO transpose.. which they shouldnt.. cause i have it deactivated.

 

Which is a shame, cause i really wanted to cheat by programming my drums next to my wobbles.. and just play with the phrase, play melodies with the programmed baseline while having drums at the same time :)

 

in 3.1B5 (havent checked b6 yet) if I changed phrase with the Z command.. it works.. but I have to set it for EVERY note! .. it would be so much easier if it remembers the last Zvalue and use it for each note after..allot cleaner. it seems so unnecessary to keep defining Z. 

 

 

.


Edited by the dreammer, 10 December 2015 - 01:16.


#2 taktik

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 10:32

Hello. When you enable the sample column in phrases to trigger samples directly, keyzones are completely bypassed and thus keyzone options too. Is this the problem? If not, could you please upload a small example XRNS file?

#3 the dreammer

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 14:01

Oh: .. I think I was using the sample-column..   
If you say:
When Sample-column is used: the keyzone and all its options are disabled.. thus that key-pitch option is dissabled. which results in transposing the samples based on only the root-key of the sample and the rootkey of the phrase.
 

Yes, in that case i think it does what you programmed.. I will do some testing..but i think you are correct.

However: 
If the phrase would look at the rootkey AND the pitch-key option.. (I dont use it allot, but i would suggest also using the Vel-Vol-option) 
It would allow to 
- Write a phrase with a baseline, a synth, pads and a drumkit, a loop, some vocals .
- Spread all samples across ALL keys.. (this is what i did)

- turn off pitching for desired samples (vocals, loop, drumkit parts)
- still tune your drums using the tuning parameters in sample parameters or change rootkey in the keyzone editor.
- then play a melody with your phrase: Where the bassline, the synths, and the pads transposes along with the melody, while the loop, the drumkit, and the vocals do not..

imagine the fun you can have by changing the Z-parameter in a sequence.. your melody is followed, and you can do nice synthswitches or melody changes.

Thats why i thought i found a bug..Sorry, your softies are so nice, that i kinda assumed that it would work this way :)

 

will try to make an example for you guys to play with after lunch, upload it later.



#4 the dreammer

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 14:11

I just checked:

You are correct.. if I do not use sample-colum.. renoise will look at the key-pitch and vel-vol options.. (tryed keypitch)
as soon as i use sample-column, it does not..   which well, if its programmed this way.. so it isnt a bug.
but it would make me superhappy, if it did.. for before-mentioned reasons :) 



#5 the dreammer

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 15:17

Trying to think along:

I see the point, where, if you look at the actual keyzone (which note-range is tied to what sample) you have a problem, if you choose a fixed sample, but play a note out of range.. it will be mute.
thats why I mapped my drums across the entire zone.. if transposed in the actual phrase.. the notes you send to the drumvoice will still be in range.. hence the need to disable the transposing of the actual sample, eventhough a higher note was issued.  So I think i am starting to understand why you dont look at the entire key-zone parameter selection..  

may i be bold to offer 3 solutions, not because i think i know better, but just because i want to help making things better.. slap me if i am out of bounds:

Option 01:
when using the sample-colum in a phrase: Ignore the keyzones, but do check the key-pitch and vel-vol paramenter within that parameter-set just for the sample.

Option 02:
Add 2 toggles in the Sample-Parameter-set: Key-Pitch and Vel-Vol : which always have the same value as key-pitch and vel-vol in the keyzone-parameter set. but depending on in which phrase mode you are, one of the two is used:
may i add, you can even choose not to sync the toggles, but it might get tricky to solve problems.. confusing people when to change what, in whatever mode.. thats the reason why i suggest: sync them.

Option 3:
In the SampleColum, also give the option to select "Sample-keyzone-groups".. 
Say what now ?!?! : Well if I could define a list of samples, and use this group of samples in the sample-colum of a phrase, with all keyzone-parameters.. 
but to be honest: that sounds like a really really really complicated solution, that gives you something very simular to "just choosing the old style" but difrent and freaky..
 

Hope it helps..


Edited by the dreammer, 10 December 2015 - 15:19.


#6 taktik

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Posted 10 December 2015 - 21:29

I think I understand what you're after and it surely wouldn't hurt if there was a way to lock pitch also for samples in such phrases, but for such "mixed" song snippet alike things it actually may be the easier to simply use multiple instruments and multiple phrases: one with the drums, on with the synths and so on. Even when using this with Redux, using multiple instances generally gives you more flexibility: you can more easily change things, swap different parts or for example reuse parts of the drums while varying synth lines.

In other words: just because it is possible to create entire songs with phrases, within a single instrument, it may not necessarily be the best choice.

#7 the dreammer

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 14:27

I do understand your point..  If you do not program it very wisely, it can become "a very un-useful and cluttered renoise instrument..
but: I used to work allot of an mc909, after i stopped using trackers..  after sending lots of time with it (about 10 years) . I got very used to creating song ideas on it.
using a sysex-hack utilising the retune-parameter.. I could even make it transpose the melodies, without transposing the drums..
After my mc909 adventures. i played with lots of elektron-stuff.. and got used to parameter locks..
practically speaking:
* I want to build renoise instruments, that are setup like little mc909's with all the goodness of parameterlocks with a tracker interface.. 
* Trigger the instrument..  in the correct key with lets say a 32step prhase with the last 16steps looped..
* f i want to change the melody. I just trigger it again in the right key with the correct phrase offset (usually 16 or higher)
* and i want to drive a "mute system" driven by lfo's which are controlled by 1 controller lfo which is tied to a key-trigger listening to an empty sample which i put in the first step of the phrase..

if i do this with 2 tracks, I can "dj-mix" between them, while still having full controll with instrument macro's..
Or make weird glitchy style effects mixing between them..
Or make very quick remixes of my own stuff ..
Or Make easy building blocks for rapbeats, which is easier for my rapfriends with reaper and redux to adjust bpm and key, without having to reprogram many many many things :)
Or have easier patterns to read out. so i have easier time giving that info to blender :) (what i mean with that will take days to explain.. but its funny)

but yeah :) simply put.. I wanna build custom grooveboxes within an instrument.. for simplified writing... 
I might even cheat.. and just swap samples in the instrument, change phrases a bit.. but keep the renoise-songstructure..  but sssst... dont tell the world i am this lame

Also done a bit more thinking about the whole deal, on what might be groovy:
For the program-mode of the phrases.. it be neat to lock the pitch on a sample.. just like i proposed.
for the keymap-mode of phrases.. Remember the groups i was talking about..  If i could set per track in the phrase, if the notes in the phrase can be transposed yes / no and how it treats its range... that could be interesting:
then your "oneshot drumsamples" you track on a nontransposable track.. while your bassline ranging from C3 to C4.. you can put on a track, that if the note be D5 after transposing, will turn into D3 (like wrap around)
but i am not completely satisfied with my thinking on that..

and yes, i would understand if ideas that drastic have to wait until 3.2.. i am sure you guys like sleep 2..


Edited by the dreammer, 11 December 2015 - 14:29.


#8 danoise

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 15:14

+1 I would love to see such a feature make it into the next version (3.x) 

 

may i be bold to offer 3 solutions

 

Thanks for the input :)  IMO, having this option relocated to the sample properties is definitely the most logical/intuitive choice. Head into the keyzone, and you would simply see "whatever" value is enabled for that particular sample. 

I think that now, the challenge is more about how things are organized - the sample properties panel is already quite crowded  :blink:


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#9 the dreammer

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 15:42

I just put an example on my view on phrases in my onedrive : http://1drv.ms/1NKs18x
in this example, i just used loops (from samplepack if your curious) used Sxx fx to slice them, just like i would on my octatrack..
I trigger the patterns again with offsets and whatnot.. lots of fun..  But I am sure, i would have more fun.. if I could program a bassline to go with it or pads..

the loops stay in place.. the bassline the pads do transpose.. or instead of loops, Program my own loops.. whatever :)
.
do the same tricks.. but add melody to it..  by triggering a difrent key then C4..

the file was 2 big to attach to the forum.. its 2.5mb. and yes.. it doesnt sound superskippie. cause i removed all "non-renoise plugins" atleast i think i did.

 



#10 the dreammer

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Posted 11 December 2015 - 15:47

And yes I am aware that loops dont transpose anyways if you use beatsync.. but that doesnt work with oneshot hits.. unless i make beatperfect samples and use beatsync.. but then they pitch if i change bpm..
it be much more neat, if there was easier solution.. like well.. were we started when i used the key-pitch button :)



#11 the dreammer

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 19:56

Small update on my thinking:

I did a few tests, because something inside me was nagging, that i was looking at the problem the wrong way:
Locking pitch is one thing: but, if I could tell renoise, to stop transposing on a per track basis.. it will be more neat.

suggestion:
above the notelane/track you see the word play in yellow, the one that also acts as a "mute" button..  next to it is room for a small toggle Transpose/no transpose.
if set to transpose, it should follow the rules of the global phrase-transpose options.. if set to non-transpose.. the notes should stay as is, resulting in playback as is, no matter what note actually triggered the phrase..

 

Yes, locking the pitch of a sample, will result in simular results..but the downside of that is:
if i set the pitch of a sample, i cant play little variations with it. which some folks use to when creating hihat'lines..  or prevent me from using a sample as both kick and toms.

So I made a new pattern.. a much smaller, and lot more clear renoisefile.
within this renoise file there is
1 !! track to play the instrument in.. (thats all i needed..)
within that track i use 2 notelanes.. 1 for the melody.. and 1 to trigger the lfo's within my instrument.

 

Within the instruments, there are multiple keyzones assigned to multiple samples. so i could play drums, play bass, play piano hits, play leadsynth and play organpads..
made my phrase.. and assigned it to C01.. 

Copied the phrase and assigned it to a following note until
C01 to C02 had a phrase assigned.. (that was allot of coping, which my suggested method will prevent if wanted)
within each of those phrases I manually transposed each notelane i thought needed transposing. (no fun work either)

I gave each sample within my instrument its own fx-channels, so i could add a gloriously complicated fx+lfo-automation system.. (one of the reasons i love renoise.. its the cheap-asses version of a eurocrack synth)..

and triggered my instrument..  tadaa.. bobs your uncle..

The big problem of programing what i want by hand, instead of asking for a "non-transposable notelane" option.. 
for this example, i needed 12 phrases, to get me 1 octave of playabillity..  in real life situations, i would uses bigger octave spans..
And well.. when I started, i did not know what everything was going to sound like.. stuff got added later.. for example adding the lead-synth (i did last)
I had to add .. an extra notelane to every phrase.. copy the pattern.. manually change pitch, change notelane-name, check for errors .. and that 12 times..
for 3 octaves, that would have been 36 times! 
to be honest, i also wanted to tinker with the leadsynth melody a bit.. but again.. that would just be allot of work..
if it could all be handled within 1 phrase..  it would be so much less "administration" and so much more "yeah tinker on buddy"...

 

I tried to give everything in the renoise-file easy to follow names.. and i did specify which tracks i would have set as "transposable" or "non-transposable"..
I hope this makes clear what i am sugesting..

btw, for those who love interesting automation-idea's .. or dont have a clue how to misstreat lfo's as automationtools.... have a fun day looking at my pattern..

and yes, i put snippet online, if your just curious how my suggestion sounds, if applied: https://clyp.it/fxfihkg3

 

Enjoy..
 

Attached Files



#12 the dreammer

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 22:16

Attached File  example 3 how i use my phrases smaller.xrns   400.79KB   73 downloads

https://clyp.it/rmlxc5qj <- how it sounds..

 

Just because i could.. Its the same instrument, but altered sample-set, and difrent sequence driving the instrument, using 2 notelanes, and using the seperate voices within the instrument, to create a minibreak..

So I hope, with my 3 examples (where 1 was to complicated to follow).. and my tldr; stories about my idea..
This all combined is satisfactory explanation of my suggestion..


Edited by the dreammer, 16 December 2015 - 22:19.






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