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[fixed rc1] Midi recording: notes sometimes placed a line too early?


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#1 a773

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 12:11

I'm recording some unquantized keyboard parts with beta4. Two times during this session, renoise chose a line too early for placing the note event. Unfortunately, I can't really say what I did different those two times. Also did some unquantized parts yesterday with different instrument, didn't have a problem then..

 

Some relevant info:

renoise 3.1 beta4 32-bit linux

debian linux with kernel 4.3

instrument is multisampled renoise native instrument, in mono-mode (instrument->midi->mono)

the instrument yesterday (no problems) was loomer aspect plugin

tempo 190

in both cases I was playing on every other line (1/8th notes) 

 

And no, I'm not that un-precise.

 

This is really, really bad.



#2 toblerpone

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Posted 14 November 2015 - 13:37

Go into the preferences and tick compensate latencies on or off, see if that helps, see if increasing the the lpb 32 helps too.



#3 a773

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 16:29

Ok, will try that. But I'm pretty sure it's not gonna change anything.

 

Maybe I should have been more clear: Most notes are dead on. Those that are off are of by *exactly* one line. So it's not that notes in general are late or early. Is that occasionally one note is off by one line...



#4 robohymn

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 19:56

I record a lot of stuff into patterns live and have found the same thing on occasion. Raising the LPB to 16+ generally solves it (higher time resolution). I never use quantization on live recording so I can't comment on that.



#5 a773

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 20:16

More clearing up:

 

1) This is without quantization.

 

2) If renoise has a bug (as I suggest), where it sometimes throws events in "a line too early", 16LPB would minimize the effect (the wrongness would be only 1/4 the time), but not eliminate it. This is just as bad. I need to be able to trust renoise to place events on the correct line. Running at 64LPB might make the timing error so small that I wouldn't notice/care or think "it's just me". But this is a work-around, and such a basic feature of a DAW should absolutely be dead one *every time*.

 

3) I've used renoise for about 7 years and done recordings like this all the time. Never had a problem before.

 

So, to sum things up: I still believe it's a bug introduced in the 3.1 series, and would really like to hear taktik what he has to say. I know it's a major drag to work on a might-be-bug from the sparse info I've provided so far. I'd like to perform *any* test taktik thinks would be helpful. But work-arounds are not really something to consider, especially in a beta release, IMHO.



#6 toblerpone

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 20:28

That was not a workaround, but a way to find out the cause. As far as I remember, renoise would always tend to stick notes into one column on recording. So

 

01 Note On

   -note off between the lines-

02 Note On

 

Results into

 

01 Note On

02 Note On

 

the note off data is lost.

 

That's why I suggested you try a higher LPB to cross out some other possibilities.


Edited by toblerpone, 15 November 2015 - 20:29.


#7 a773

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 20:48

Ok, sorry I missed that...

#8 taktik

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 22:19

If it's a bug we're of course interested in fixing it. No question. Problem is that it's a bit vague and I personally did not experienced it yet, so any more infos and tests are very appropriated. Will do a few tests here too.

 

Just to be sure: If you say "unquantized", then this is with note column delays enabled, isn't it? Not quantized to a single line?

 

If you record the same sequence again with the same tempo and instruments, can you make it happen again or is it completely random?



#9 Guest_ffx_*

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 23:22

I cannot tell for sure, but I have also the "feeling" that since 3.0, more notes slip out of the raster... I dunno. It felt different in 2.8. But maybe this is, because it is more precise than in 2.8?

 

What I can say for sure is, that

 

1. changing the note delay to 80 as default (80-ff for negative and 0-7f for positive) and

 

2. adding the advanced edit quantization options for live ( some magnetic kind of quantization) would highly lower the amount of post editing time.

 

By reducing the need of moving notes around.  I also miss an option to live quantize notes, but not note-off. Not only for post-edit.



#10 a773

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Posted 15 November 2015 - 23:40

Thanks, taktik, for answering.

I'll try to do more testing tomorrow, although I think I have a flue comming.

Correct, delays enabled, quantice grayed out, renoise native instrument in solo mode.

#11 robohymn

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Posted 16 December 2015 - 17:39

I just don't seem to have this problem, and I record live MIDI constantly in Renoise, including some pretty complex jazz riffing and stuff. I have noticed that sometimes a note is placed a line earlier than I meant it to be even though I'm pretty sure I'm playing to the beat, but it's not consistent, and quantization (using the advanced edit panel) clears it up quickly...

 

Maybe I should add that I always use a minimum 8 LPB (often 16 when live recording) because less than that *does* seem to introduce some timing problems. Also, when I'm recording to a track, I'm in the habit of setting the track delay to a negative setting, usually -12, and this keeps things in time when there are issues. This is using LineIn Return mode.

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Edited by robohymn, 16 December 2015 - 17:47.


#12 taktik

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Posted 17 December 2015 - 10:07

Did a few more tests and found one little issue which could, more or less randomly, write down a note exactly one line off and fixed that now. Happened every few thousand notes, but depending on the tempo, LPB and current audio settings it also could happen more or less often or not at all.

Would be great if you guys could give this a try again in the next update and report back if you still can replicate this then.
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