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Do's and don'ts of redistributing the Renoise demo?

Demo Redistribution

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#1 Neurogami

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Posted 17 January 2016 - 18:36

At some point I want to release an album that, as part of the download (or as part of an SD card/USB thumb drive distribution), includes xrns files and some custom Renoise tools.

 

The end user would of course need Renoise so I want to bundle in the demo version as well.

 

Is this permitted?

 

Is there some specific legal information I would have to include? An explicit licensing doc? Other stuff? Or maybe nothing more than the demo installer?

 

Thanks!


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#2 agent220

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 18:22

neat idea! should be fine. and as far as documents iirc the demo comes with the fine print (licensing doc etc) so I'd imagine all you'll have to do is simply bundle in the demo install

#3 Neurogami

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Posted 01 February 2016 - 20:39

neat idea! should be fine. and as far as documents iirc the demo comes with the fine print (licensing doc etc) so I'd imagine all you'll have to do is simply bundle in the demo install

 

I looked for such docs but found nothing.  There's just the installer. I didn't actually install the demo since I already have Renoise installed and don't want to boink anything by mistake.



#4 agent220

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Posted 02 February 2016 - 02:04

yeah, I don't know, it's been ages since I've installed the demo, I just assumed that it would include all that information, or at least somewhere in the terms and conditions scroll screen that the user either accepts or declines before install. maybe you can include a Readme type of filing letting your listeners know about the demo included and give them the link to the site. afaik there's really no harm distributing the renoise demo, if anything you're helping the potential for our community to grow.
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#5 GrooveMastaPutz

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 01:00

I'm sure the devs would have no problem with you pimping out the demo of renoise, so long as you didn't modify it or anything (which I assume you don't intend to do).

Maybe put a link to where they can buy it just to be safe? Or alternatively just put a link to where they can download the demo and have them do it on their own.

I feel like they would only have a problem with users distributing the demo on websites other than the official renoise page, but I'm not a dev so I won't speak for them.


Edited by GrooveMastaPutz, 09 February 2016 - 01:01.

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#6 Neurogami

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 03:25

I'm sure the devs would have no problem with you pimping out the demo of renoise, so long as you didn't modify it or anything (which I assume you don't intend to do).

Maybe put a link to where they can buy it just to be safe? Or alternatively just put a link to where they can download the demo and have them do it on their own.

I feel like they would only have a problem with users distributing the demo on websites other than the official renoise page, but I'm not a dev so I won't speak for them.

 

I doubt there would be any problem so long as I make clear the source of the demo version and include all the expected info about copyright, trademark, etc. I.e., make clear this is not MY software, but software needed to play my songs.  And certainly I would encourage people to purchase the full version.

 

When I'm ready to actually release something like this I'll make a point of contacting someone at Renoise World Headquarters directly to be sure there isn't so unexpected reason (legal or otherwise) this would not be allowed.

 

I was just hoping one of the Renoise overlords would see this thread and comment.



#7 ffx

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 10:44

Come on, guys. As far as I understand the license text, this is clearly forbidden. For good reasons.

Why not put a link to renoise page instead? Personally I would prefer to download a software from the official webpage, nowadays. I even would say I would find an installer on a music album quite dubious. Also a link would be a much better promotion.
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#8 danoise

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 12:28

Speaking for myself, I think no one at Renoise will complain or sue you for distributing a demo as part of an album release - but, ffx has a good point. I'm pretty sure that most people will feel more comfortable downloading any software from it's official website. 


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#9 radian

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 14:06

And they can use this page to ensure they get a specific version, in case that matters.
http://www.renoise.c...chived-releases



#10 Neurogami

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 15:51

Come on, guys. As far as I understand the license text, this is clearly forbidden. For good reasons.

Why not put a link to renoise page instead? Personally I would prefer to download a software from the official webpage, nowadays. I even would say I would find an installer on a music album quite dubious. Also a link would be a much better promotion.

 

A goal is to make as friction-free as possible.  I'd provide a link to the demo download page as well, but want to provide an all-in-one package as well.



#11 Neurogami

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 16:30

Come on, guys. As far as I understand the license text, this is clearly forbidden. For good reasons.

 

 

Where is the license text for the demo installer?  The installer itself includes a license file that, as best I can tell, refers to  the Renoise program itself (e.g renoise.exe) but  I have not seen a license that describes the installer (e.g,  Renoise_3_1_0_Demo_x64.exe). 

 

It isn't clear to me that the restriction on copying the files provided by the free demo installer means a restriction on copying the installer itself.  That is, the license applies when you run the installer and applies to the files installed.



#12 ffx

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 19:21

Have a look here:

http://www.renoise.c...cense-agreement

 

It's targeting demo and full version.  Especially read §1.1.B and §6.1.D.


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#13 Neurogami

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Posted 09 February 2016 - 19:33

 

It's targeting demo and full version.  Especially read §1.1.B and §6.1.D.

 

Right.  I read that.  As best I can tell it refers to  the software being installed by the installer.

 

As it says at the top of the license, 'the "Renoise" computer programme,' 

 

Not the installer software package itself.  I take this license to mean that I cannot redistribute the parts extracted from the installer.  



#14 ffx

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 00:24

Well, only taktik can answer this it seems :)
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#15 Neurogami

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 01:08

Well, only taktik can answer this it seems :)

 

That's basically it.  I can think of reasons for and against allowing it.  Even if there was some technically valid legal view that would allow it, but the chief Renoisers were against it, I'd want to respect their wishes.

 

 And I appreciate the observations that people might not want to use a bundled installer versus grabbing it from the official source (convenient or not).

 

I'll inquiry more directly with the Renoise folks if and when I actually have something to release.

 

It also struck me that if I'm selling an album + xrns + demo version I am  conceivably (albeit indirectly) selling the demo.  

 

Short term I need to produce something that is at least proof-of-concept and see where it goes from there.

 

I really do like the idea of providing an end product that is not meant to be the one true and only rendering of a piece.



#16 ffx

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 06:24

Neurogami, nah, you are completely wrong here.

1. The installer of course is the same as the software, from law way of view. The installer contains the software, so redistribution of the installer is the same as redistribution of the software.

2. If nothing is written about a downloadable software, all rights and properties remains to the creator. That's the German copyright law.

So basically, you are exactly allowed to do NOTHING WITHOUT permission.

C'mon man, you should have asked such thing privately.

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#17 f+d+k

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 07:07

Legal stuff aside...

 

I really do like the idea of providing an end product that is not meant to be the one true and only rendering of a piece.

 

Sounds cool to me as a concept. I also like the idea behind Gescom's Minidisc.


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#18 Neurogami

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 07:18

Neurogami, nah, you are completely wrong here.

 

1. The installer of course is the same as the software, from law way of view. The installer contains the software, so redistribution of the installer is the same as redistribution of the software.

2. If nothing is written about a downloadable software, all rights and properties remains to the creator. That's the German copyright law.

So basically, you are exactly allowed to do NOTHING WITHOUT permission.

C'mon man, you should have asked such thing privately.

 

 

 

I'm asking about permission. 

 

Asking things in private doesn't help others who might have similar questions.

 

Not having a legal education background,  I'm not going to presume to know  the answers.  I do have enough legal experience to know that things are often not as obvious or simple as they might appear.

 

The fact that I could not find anything that, to my understanding, specifically addresses this doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

So I asked.


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#19 Neurogami

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 07:24

Legal stuff aside...

 

 

Sounds cool to me as a concept. I also like the idea behind Gescom's Minidisc.

 

Wow. Minidisc!  That sure didn't last.:) 

 

I like the idea of that album.  It's something I would apply myself, using jumps among patterns and loops. (Probably not as the basis for an  entire piece though.)

 

What's striking is that the composer made a point of exploiting an interesting quality of the distribution media, something that doesn't happen often enough.



#20 pat

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 19:50

I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask this in public.

 

Hopefully taktik responds :)

 

fwiw I don't think there's any real friction in telling someone to download the demo, but I get where you're coming from.



#21 Neurogami

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Posted 10 February 2016 - 20:58

I think it's perfectly reasonable to ask this in public.

 

Hopefully taktik responds :)

 

fwiw I don't think there's any real friction in telling someone to download the demo, but I get where you're coming from.

 

One of the useful things about asking something in public, even if the answer ends up seeming obvious in retrospect, is that it gets me (and maybe otehrs) to think things through more thoroughly, and to consider things that may not have otherwise occurred to me.

 

For example, I'm now giving more thought to the pros/cons of just telling people to go download the demo.

 

It does make certain things simpler (e.g there's no issue with me selling a product that instructs people to follow a link).



#22 DDspeed

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Posted 12 February 2016 - 14:51

Why would redestributing the demo installer be seen as a bad thing? Not that long ago every music magazine would come with a cover cd packed with demo versions of software and that was considered part of the programme's promotion efforts. I always thought that the sheer idea of a demo version is to distribute it as widely as possible.


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