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Some notes not playing, regular notes + phrases mixed, monophonic VSTi


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#1 toimp

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 20:30

It seems phrases have a higher priority, when you play a phrase and a simple note with a vsti plugin, you hear just the phrase.
I'm using mono mode on this vsti and i thought that note events on track 2 will be played after the phrase.
When i dont use a phrase on track 1, then it works.
I want to use phrases for basic bass arps and play a melody over it. For polyphony, everything is fine. But on mono mode(re trigger), it doesn't work.
I've attached a demo song, you need Synth1 for testing.

Attached Files



#2 dblue

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 21:04

Renoise is sending all of the notes to the plugin, whether they come from a phrase or not. You can clearly see/hear this by switching Synth1 from mono to poly mode, where all of the notes do get played.

So it's not necessarily that one note has priority over the other, or that the single notes on track 2 will somehow 'block' the phrase notes from playing on track 1. They simply all get sent to the plugin, and then it's the plugin's job to handle them appropriately.

After checking the output on the MIDI monitor, the notes are at least being sent in the correct order — ie. the E-4 in track 2 triggers after the phrase E-3 in track 1 was triggered — but it seems that Synth1 may not like the way the note on's and off's are being handled?

We'll try to look at things in a bit more detail anyway.

In the meantime, you can enable the note delay column on track 2, then add a single digit of delay to each of the notes. This will delay them by an amount which is hopefully imperceptible to your ear, but is just enough to make Synth1 play them correctly when in mono mode.

Attached File  notes_are_not_playing_fix.xrns   5.23KB   86 downloads

#3 ffx

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Posted 20 March 2016 - 22:25

Don't know if related, but I found out that the 64 bit version of synth1 is really buggy, for example breaking 12dB filter. Maybe try 32 bit build?


Test system: macOS 10.13.4, HFS+. Firewire Audio, i7 4770, 8GB Ram, GTX1050 2GB, 48kHz


#4 toimp

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Posted 21 March 2016 - 16:20

@dblue: I think this happens with all VSTi's. The delay could be a fix, too bad you need to put it on each note for the melody manually.
When i dont use a phrases at all, then it works fine for me, see attachment.

@ffx: It also happens with xfer Serum. Its not a Synth1 related "issue".

Attached Files


Edited by toimp, 21 March 2016 - 16:20.


#5 toimp

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Posted 02 April 2016 - 17:28

Btw. when you mix phrases and you loop the pattern, note playing will change after some time. Attached another song.
Its also not possible to do this with vst midi plugins. I tried to use bluearp to archive this, but it also randomly play the melody notes... :/
Can someone explain why this happens? It seems the notes sometimes doesn't fit in the 1/16 quantize and gets filtered.
Tried other midi plugins and got the same results. Is there a timing issue in renoise?

Attached Files



#6 danoise

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 09:38

Btw. when you mix phrases and you loop the pattern, note playing will change after some time

 

Yes, there is something wrong in the first example. Skipping notes in a random fashion, just like you describe. 

 

Strange thing is, it works fine when loading into Renoise 32bit (I usually go with 64bit). 

Perhaps it has something to do with sandboxing?... could be any number of things, really. 

 

I created a different testcase, a bit more simple pattern and sound. 

Attached File  notes_are_randomly_playing_bluearp_native.xrns   17.09KB   85 downloads

 

PS: Couldn't hear anything wrong in the second example? 


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#7 toimp

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Posted 04 April 2016 - 16:29

You mean the demo song "notes_are_randomly_playing.xrns" , right? Just play the loop for some time. After the 8th/9th loop, the whole loop will be played differently.

Sandboxing seems to be fine, because this happens also with 64bit VSTi's.

#8 danoise

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Posted 05 April 2016 - 18:46

You mean the demo song "notes_are_randomly_playing.xrns" , right? Just play the loop for some time. After the 8th/9th loop, the whole loop will be played differently.

 

No, I meant the MIDI arpeggiator example. Here, the phrase example played as it should no matter for how long it went on. So I couldn't find any problem there. 

 

I simplified your MIDI example it as I found it kind of hard to hear what was going on with such long attack/release in a synth preset. 

 

In that one, there is something strange going on - it skips notes an an apparently random manner.

It will behave strangely even with just a single note playing, if a note-off is placed somewhere after the triggering note! 

 

All of this seems to happen only when running 64bit build of both Renoise + plugin. 

 

Edit: Indeed, all these combinations seem to be working:

* 32bit Renoise, 64bit plugin

* 64bit Renoise, 32bit plugin

* 32bit Renoise, 32bit plugin


Edited by danoise, 05 April 2016 - 18:47.

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#9 taktik

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 17:37

Plugin bridging implies the use of "static buffer", which is what BlueArp seems to need here to get the timing right. Will double check this with some other plugins, to be sure that this is not a Renoise problem, but I vaguely remember there have been some other quirks with BlueArp, which usually did not happen with other plugins.

 

Also, don't trigger VSTs from multiple tracks. This will lead into weird behavior - sooner or later - a plugin instrument really can only be played back on one track at the same time. In your example it switches from track to track.



#10 toimp

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Posted 06 April 2016 - 19:25

@taktik: I tried xfer cthulhu and i've the same issues like bluearp.
About multiple tracks and vsts: When set a track in the audio routing settings, then everything should be fine, right?

@danoise: Ok. Thx for testing.

#11 taktik

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Posted 07 April 2016 - 16:05

I can not replicate that problem with cthulhu here. Could you please give us an example?

 

About multiple tracks and vsts: When set a track in the audio routing settings, then everything should be fine, right?
 
No, audio routing settings don't apply when the plugin is used as MIDI generator. Simply avoid this in general. Sooner or later weird things will happen if you don't.


#12 toimp

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Posted 07 April 2016 - 17:01

I made a video, because i cant save a song with the cthulhu demo:
https://vid.me/LgZG

I hope this weill help to reproduce it.

#13 toimp

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Posted 08 April 2016 - 18:18

It seems i stumbled over another issue with the midi routing feature.
I was testing phosycon and using it for 10-15 minutes.

Renoise was playing an empty song during this time. So i can use the internal sequencer to programming a pattern.
After that, i was trying to trigger the patterns via notes. On the first line 00 i put the note c-1 to trigger the first pattern and on line 32 i put the note d-2 to trigger the second one.
Phosycon is on instrument 00 and i've a second empty instrument 01 in the song.
I was testing the midi out feature of Phosycon before, so the midi routing was set to intrument 01.
When i play this song, renoise doesn't trigger the notes in the right time. There's always a little bit of latency.
When i disable the midi routing, then everything is fine.

I saved a test song, but renoise doesn't load it and crash.
I was using renoise 64bit with the 64bit version of phoscyon, download: http://d16.pl/phoscyon

Edit: It seems renoise doens't crash everytime... strange.

Not sure if this is related.

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Edited by toimp, 08 April 2016 - 18:19.


#14 toimp

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 19:15

Any news about this? Was it reproducible, so it can be fixed?