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#1 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 30 March 2016 - 11:14

I'm using Renoise assiduously, since 3.1 version. And honestly, I would like the next version had a much more "Advanced Automation Editor". Automation Editor is still very green.

 

Rather than add preset curves, work perfection in editing, select group, copy, paste, and especially easily creating lines. For example, the connection between points to create a line does not work fine. And it would be great improvement in the introduction of the value of each point, easier.

 

Enhance the Automation Edition think it would be the next logical step to perfect Renoise, above our other features...

 

I'm composing like a bullet, and when I use the Automation Editor, go with the handbrake on, I think I am not the only. I use a lot the Automation Editor.

 

Regards!


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#2 Andrey Marchenko

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Posted 10 April 2016 - 11:59

I'm using Renoise assiduously, since 3.1 version. And honestly, I would like the next version had a much more "Advanced Automation Editor". Automation Editor is still very green.

 

Rather than add preset curves, work perfection in editing, select group, copy, paste, and especially easily creating lines. For example, the connection between points to create a line does not work fine. And it would be great improvement in the introduction of the value of each point, easier.

 

Enhance the Automation Edition think it would be the next logical step to perfect Renoise, above our other features...

 

I'm composing like a bullet, and when I use the Automation Editor, go with the handbrake on, I think I am not the only. I use a lot the Automation Editor.

 

Regards!

 

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#3 Akiz

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Posted 10 April 2016 - 19:46

Yeah and the matrix editor is the second...

Ive got feeling that instrument section is very well done with 3.1 



#4 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 10 April 2016 - 23:15

Yeah and the matrix editor is the second...

Ive got feeling that instrument section is very well done with 3.1 

 

Personally, I do not have many problems with the Matrix Editor (It is a great invention, could only be refined, works in an acceptable way, actually). Which it was in version 3.0.1 was the collective selection of rows out the screen to drag or copy (keep shift and select with mouse). It was fixed in version 3.1.

 

Actually (v3.1)The Pattern Editor can also improve many things. I would like a padlock to lock each track and protect when composing, for example. It would be secondary and it is just a detail of so many....

 

But the Automation Editor is, for me, very important. It should have plenty of well-crafted native functions. I am surprised that there are native effects well crafted, and the Automation Editor so poor.

 

Before the Matrix Editor, improve the Keyzones Editor, which it is basic also. But with the Automation Editor, I would not want developers sprucing four things and go. A drastic change would be magnificent, well-crafted. The Automation Editor could improve drastically...

 

Those comments are not a complaint at all. It should be understood as a possible roadmap... Developers know what to do with the good fortune of these forums. There is no better tester that a composer with Renoise. Renoise seems to have no limits. It is a modern and enviable tracker !!! Everything can be improved, but there must be priorities, always. I just not want to wait a whole year not to see more improvements.  ^_^


Edited by Raul, 10 April 2016 - 23:19.

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#5 thunk

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Posted 13 April 2016 - 22:10

Two words: Tension handles.

 

It's 2016. Automation curves need tension handles.

That would do it for me.

 

Edit: Well, that and the ability to "mute" a parameter's automation, so you can fiddle with automated knobs a bit. (I know you can delete the automation, fiddle with the knob, then undo the delete. But that workaround is particularly prone to human error, like if you forget to undo the delete before modifying something else (surprisingly easy to do in the moment)).

 

Edit2: IMO FL Studio is still the undisputed king of curve point types (Smooth, Hold, Single Curve, Single Curve 2, Single Curve 3, Double Curve, Double Curve 2, Double Curve 3, Half Sine, Stairs, Smooth Stairs, Pulse, and Wave).

 

But I'd be more than happy with a couple curve scalings (with tension handles) like the ones already available in the doofer's macro scaling menu, plus Hold (so useful for stepping without putting the whole envelope in Point Mode), as FL's other types are rarely used, and easily composable from these building blocks.


Edited by thunk, 13 April 2016 - 23:46.

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#6 Andrey Marchenko

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 03:22

Want to hear DEVs about this question because yesterday i again realized why i sold my previews Renoise copy -> Renoise's automation is pain in the a**. I'm talking about automation when you're mixing and arranging your track. When you creating loops (sketching track) - everything is perfect. But when you need to create exponential curve for automation across 10 (for example) patterns - say goodbye to inspiration. All this tools like "Automasher", "Autobender" - not a real solution. Yes, i can create curve with it, but what if i need to work fast and want to edit curves by hand? Yes, it's time for show stopper. 

 

I'm really in love with Renoise but today is 2016 and still nothing about automation improvements. Curves still lock in one pattern  :mellow: And if i need to sacrifice Piano Roll or Audio Tracks for Automation improvements - 1000 YES for this!


Edited by AndreyMarchenko, 15 April 2016 - 10:09.

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#7 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 12:00

Want to hear DEVs about this question because yesterday i again realized why i sold my previews Renoise copy -> Renoise's automation is pain in the a**. I'm talking about automation when you're mixing and arranging your track. When you creating loops (sketching track) - everything is perfect. But when you need to create exponential curve for automation across 10 (for example) patterns - say goodbye to inspiration. All this tools like "Automasher", "Autobender" - not a real solution. Yes, i can create curve with it, but what if i need to work fast and want to edit curves by hand? Yes, it's time for show stopper. 

 

I'm really in love with Renoise but today is 2016 and still nothing about automation improvements. Curves still lock in one pattern  :mellow: And if i need to sacrifice Piano Roll or Audio Tracks for Automation improvements - 1000 YES for this!

 

I agree 100% with your comment. Before finishing version 3.1, I protest strongly about this topic. The first answer was provided. Use you Automasher or Autobender... But these tools do not really serve. Something as basic as creating a sloping line between two separate points of two distant patterns does not work fine. No function curves made select, copy and paste them easily, or drag. My pisses me off this topic. In addition, it is also arduous having to deal with the introduction of the starting values. As is the tool still looks like a test tube.

 

I would let developers instead of add things, focus on the automation editor once and for all. Now a new cycle for version 3.2 starts, I guess. If another member on the forum talking about Automasher or Autobender, I'll shoot. It is as if they did not understand.

 

In the background it is very basic what is needed:

  • Facilitate the creation of linkages between points, addressing the gap between patterns. This works fatal.
  • Facilitate the selection of areas, copy and paste and drag and drop areas.
  • Even create a preview of banks saved areas. Create multiple curves or slopes of various patterns. Select all patterns and save in a bank. Repeat this 10 times. You will have 10 saved banks. Visualize through a floating window, before applying.
  • Include a new .XRNA format, or something, to save curves and a section for loading.
  • Easier to include the values of each point.
  • Easier to include the initial value of each effect.
  • See the values of each point, all points and not only circles.
  • A multiplier or divider tool for raising and lowering selected curves. A basic function already exists, but falls short.
  • Forgetting native automation curves (I would like to have "Face In" "Face Out" at least...but...).They are a great work for implementation and serve little purpose. The important thing is to strengthen the editor. This is a complicated issue because the curves must conform to each parameter of each effect, and it is a very inefficient work. Keep in mind that the editor is used for hundreds of parameters of each effect.
  • And the list goes on...

I used a lot the Automation Editor (v3.1 or 3.01 and previous ), I have studied the keyboard commands in Preferences/Keys/Automation and it is very green. I think the Editor Automation is not used by many people, because it is very basic. But, this issue would be full of protests.

 

With an advanced automation editor, they could do wonders. You enter the forum of ideas. Most are "stupid" or little things here and there. Most are not some weight, as an Advanced Automation Editor. It is so basic, that saddens me that is not made. It is that this issue is not new. We carry this item years. I also find that there is little connection between the forum members. When someone throws an idea, there is always someone tangling or contradicts it. There is no consensus, and the end is ignored. A good idea should be supported much. And many also are tired of asking for details and be ignored. Something that is normal. You can not implement everything. But this topic yes, of course I do. There is no excuse.

 

For a comparison. I do not want a "Beta Paint", I want a "Photoshop v10". It is exaggerated, but for people to understand. Actually it would not be very complicated. The "beta" already is made, so to speak. I'm sure the developers they know perfectly.


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#8 Andrey Marchenko

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 12:26

Also next thing that i want to see is Editing for automation of different tracks (or for several parameters for one track):

 

Screen+Shot+2016-04-15+at+21.20.58.png


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#9 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 14:09

Also next thing that i want to see is Editing for automation of different tracks (or for several parameters for one track): ...

 

It would be great too! There could be an effect selection button on the left list (inside the list on the right side), for at least 3 windows automation. Also greatly help in coordinating. Even add a vertical bar for the windows automation selected. All this could be programmed without invading nothing.

 

The problem is the bottom bar of buttons and menus, which should be bigger for more functions. Perhaps a horizontal bar higher for more buttons would be feasible. Let's see if I have time next week and I think some fictional screen capture for all these ideas.

 

I like to create those screenshots although then are useless or are ignored ^_^  ^_^  ^_^ !


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#10 danoise

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 15:49

The problem is the bottom bar of buttons and menus, which should be bigger for more functions.

 

At least it is possible to vertically resize the automation editor (drag to resize). Worth pointing out in case you missed it? 


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#11 Skolskoly

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 19:54

Personally, the biggest problem for me with the automation editor is that it's strictly locked to the pattern length. I've got to add 16 points to the editor just to do a simple linear fade over 8 patterns. And then if I remove a pattern or two, I have to reconnect the dots all over again. It would be nice if I could just insert a point at the beginning of the fade, and one at the end, and everything would just work without having to worry about the pattern edges. This would break the way that automation clips are all independent of each other, I understand that, but I think it would be worthwhile.


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#12 thunk

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 20:13

Personally, the biggest problem for me with the automation editor is that it's strictly locked to the pattern length. I've got to add 16 points to the editor just to do a simple linear fade over 8 patterns. And then if I remove a pattern or two, I have to reconnect the dots all over again. It would be nice if I could just insert a point at the beginning of the fade, and one at the end, and everything would just work without having to worry about the pattern edges. This would break the way that automation clips are all independent of each other, I understand that, but I think it would be worthwhile.

 

 

 

I agree. I imagine it's a nightmare from the devs' point of view. But if it's possible, even a global "Continuous automation envelopes (no pattern breaks)" option would be really great.

 

(And tension handles, and automation muting, and and and .... we whine, but it's for the greater good :) )


Edited by thunk, 15 April 2016 - 20:16.


#13 lhaastdaiz

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Posted 15 April 2016 - 22:49

I've got to add 16 points to the editor just to do a simple linear fade over 8 patterns

 

To be fair, this is something you can already do with the line tool.

 

http://tutorials.ren...utomation_Tools



#14 Andrey Marchenko

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 02:21

Like to see that people really care about Automation & Editor. DEVs just turn off this annoying lock function for automation lines in patterns!



#15 J.Yarmosh

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 13:32

 So if we talk about mixing - it`s all about volume. From start to end we need to change volume of each instrument. So than we creating the balance. But now it`s just impossible for whole track. And it`s the shame for real DAW for real mixing. Yes, i`am a tracker musician, but i`am a sound engineer also. And i need a normal automation on whole tracks no interruptings by patterns regions.  

 

 

  Ok. I use a nanoKontrol for a automation while playing. But Renoise can`t calibrate the post volume! It`s need to use a "gain" of the top of the effects-chain. Gain? Really? It`s ruined the balance. The controller makes many mistakes. It`s just unconfortable. So we really need the post fader automation like it`s done for pre-fader. Post fader automation for WHOLE track.

 

 

  When mix is done. All track are ready for MIXING. It`s all about volume. Like an orchestra. I have a mixboard and each instrument on own channel. And it`s need to conduct by faders. By Post-faders. Post-volume. Not by gain-effect. This is mixing as is. This is faders conduct by controller or just use automation on whole track from start to end. And i just want mixing in favorite Renoise.


Edited by J.Yarmosh, 16 April 2016 - 14:11.


#16 Skolskoly

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Posted 16 April 2016 - 18:36

To be fair, this is something you can already do with the line tool.

 

http://tutorials.ren...utomation_Tools

oh...

I wish I had known about this a long time ago, haha. Thanks.



#17 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 14:57

Hi Skolskoly. 

 

I'll put a few simple steps to make connections between línes in various patterns. Anyone who begins with the automation editor initially found a sea of problems of edition. Not select multiple patterns to copy, paste, drag...

 

Each pattern is worked separately, and is a burden. Creating lines between patterns is tedious. The best way I use are these steps (I use 10 patterns and Panning parameter:

  1. Example: the song has 10 patterns of 64 rows (0-63).
  2. Select "Automation Editor" and Time in "Grid". Widen the window dragging up maximum to work comfortably.
  3. Select "Panning" parameter in left list (default selected is "Volume" parameter).
  4. Left click mouse in pattern four for select this.
  5. Double left click mouse in "Panning" parameter for create a point in four pattern in the beginning with default value (center). Initially the Automation Editor working in "linear".
  6. Change "linear" per "points" (this helps create lines easily between two widely separated points between patterns). You will have a point with "center" value.
  7. Left click mouse in pattern nine random, without releasing the left button, drag to the value 30R at the end of the row 63.
  8. Change "linear" per "points" again.
  9. Linking the first point to the second point using the line tool (use the mouse wheel to zoom horizontally if necessary).
  10. Repeat the steps to create sawtooth on these or future patterns (11, 12, 13...).

All these steps serve to create a clean line between two points in two very separate patterns. If you use the line tool continuously, you will have problems in some cases. 

 

Each line through each pattern is defined by 2 points, first one and the second at the end. If you have joined 6 patterns, actually have 12 points. In this case, with a continuous slope line, if you delete an intermediate pattern, you create a rung or jump. To join, you must create a full line of new, erasing earlier. No option to initially change the linear function or points. Need to work with each pattern separately, without being able to select a group of patterns and change.

 

So yes, I am in part agree with you. With the editor you can work and make lines, but work cased continuously without a global vision within the own edition, and that's what most angry.

 

A new way to select multiple patterns in a group would click above each pattern in the editor automation. It would be like a kind horizontal selection button complete pattern. Then copy, cut or drag patterns group.

 

For me, drag to select multiple patterns in the pattern editor is essential. Perhaps in the future could the matrix editor only joined each parameter automation automation editor used. Select, drag and drop in the matrix editor, without affecting the pattern editor and your notes.

 

Can develop many new things ...

 

So 2 more ideas:

  1. Using the Matrix Editor affecting only the previously selected parameter automation. Expand the Matrix Editor window horizontally to understand. 
  2. Add a button above each pattern in the Automation Editor, to select multiple patterns, copy, cut, paste or drag an drop as a whole.

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#18 thunk

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Posted 21 April 2016 - 20:14

J.Yarmosh:

It`s need to use a "gain" of the top of the effects-chain. Gain? Really? It`s ruined the balance.

 

 

 

I actually love the lack of automation on the post faders. It gives you the freedom to mess with the mix at any time, without worrying about screwing it up, or having the faders locked to the automation during playback.

 

I put a mix volume Doofer at the end of each track FX chain (a slight modification of what the manual suggests).

 

It's just a Gainer in a Doofer, with a Volume macro knob mapped to the Gain, scaled how I like (Min: -INF, Max: +12.025dB, set to the steepest exponential (#4 in the list).

 

So a 0.75 in the automation lane puts you right at 0dB. 0.5 is about -12dB. 0.25 is about -24dB, and so on. And there's +12dB of headroom (0.75 - 1.0 in the automation lane) when you really want to slam the limiter.

 

Personal preference. Use your ears, as always.

 

Then all the Mixer Post faders sit at 0dB. I can experiment with them any time, knowing a double-click will reset it to the "real" mix.

 

If I like a change I've made, I translate it to the Doofer's automation underneath.

 

I think this is the Renoise-endorsed workflow, and I'm fond of it.

 

---

 

Edit: The pattern-breaks in the automation lane are admittedly annoying, but possibly too deeply ingrained in Renoise's architecture to change. I dunno. Every DAW has its strengths and weaknesses.

 

---

 

Edit2: But tension handles, point types (exponential and hold), and per-parameter automation "muting"! Whine!


Edited by thunk, 21 April 2016 - 21:09.


#19 Andrey Marchenko

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 11:23

Ok. Bump for this topic! 



#20 xbitz

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Posted 02 November 2016 - 20:45

can be retrigger one-shoot LFOs with given(empty) sample triggered key trackers, it can't be a problem  ^_^ 



and the LFOs can be set to any length(dynamically too), unfortunately as I see multiple LFOs can't be assigned to same target so doofer and multi macro with same target have to be used, but at least it phrase compatible


Edited by xbitz, 02 November 2016 - 20:51.

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#21 Andrey Marchenko

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Posted 03 November 2016 - 08:59

This is not the same.



#22 danoise

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 13:33

Also next thing that i want to see is Editing for automation of different tracks (or for several parameters for one track):


I'm with you on this one. It's great having multiple parameters side-by-side (well, top-to-bottom) for the larger picture.

Could be implemented a single checkbox, "pinned", which would make the selected parameter stay affixed while still allowing you to browse freely.
And then it would really make sense to allow at least a *single* pattern to be blown up in size (Ext.Editor button), like this:
 
stacked-env.png?raw=1
 
It's similar to the picture you did, except that I'm not taking over the space of the pattern editor.
In my version, the pattern editor _would_ be visible where the expanded editor is - the "middle panel".
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#23 joule

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 20:56

(inviting a tool hack using the parameters of [placeholder]device to act as math operands combined to generate an automation curve)



#24 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 22:36

Thank you for this!!!! :

 

I'm with you on this one. It's great having multiple parameters side-by-side (well, top-to-bottom) for the larger picture.

Could be implemented a single checkbox, "pinned", which would make the selected parameter stay affixed while still allowing you to browse freely.
And then it would really make sense to allow at least a *single* pattern to be blown up in size (Ext.Editor button), like this:

 

stacked-env.png
 

It's similar to the picture you did, except that I'm not taking over the space of the pattern editor.

In my version, the pattern editor _would_ be visible where the expanded editor is - the "middle panel". 

 

 

 

Please Danoise, you could talk to Taktik for this issue to take priority? To meet all the ideas on this topic and look forward to improve Automation Editor. This screenshot is superb! Obviously need to add controls to improve the editing, but certainly the idea is easily seen! ... A vertical scroll bar, perhaps?

 

Please do not let this issue be forgotten!!!  I'm sure this likes everyone. It has enormous potential!!!

 

I hope that forum members realize the great advantages of this issue, and comment to improve... and support!!!!

 

How is the best way to edit multiple patterns simultaneously easily?

 

Here I see two parts:

  1. Edit each individual pattern, as in the screenshot. Have several parameters in view at once is great for the control!
  2. Easily edit multiple patterns together. I do not speak the horizontal zoom, but how to edit multiple patterns simultaneously, with keyboard, mouse, etc.

What about the issue of overlapping several layers??? Would it be too complicated?


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#25 The_Traveler

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Posted 05 November 2016 - 22:55

Multi-track automation editing

 

+1

 

:) :) :) :) :)


Edited by The_Traveler, 05 November 2016 - 22:59.