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Whats next for Renoise?


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#1 thalamus

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 13:16

What is planned for Renoise >3.1 ?

 

 

 



#2 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 13:37

What is planned for Renoise >3.1 ?

 

I know nothing, but I'm very curious. We are entering the final stretch of 2016. If they exist novelties for this year, I guess will come to light... Though such silence, I do not expect much.  :unsure: We hope surprises!!!

 

I sign your question ...


:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 18 July 2017):

Spoiler

#3 Roppenzo

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 13:54

You can't answer this sort of questions on this messageboard. Everyone is going to comment with;

- we're must be happy with the Renoise version we have and don't complain
- cats

that's about it.

sad but true.
House Music All Night Long. - Say What?

#4 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 14:11

Thalamus maybe want to see cats  ^_^

 

I guess many people wondering the same thing. But they do not write here...


:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 18 July 2017):

Spoiler

#5 Abissus

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 14:22

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#6 Fsus4

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 20:58

Must.... resist... commenting....

 

Damn it, can't resist!

 

OK. So the thing is that this "radio silence" is probably not really The Ideal Situation™ for the devs either. It wouldn't surprise me if taktik someday, when writing his memoirs, revealed that he actually wished that virtually all users would become alpha testers and help the project forward in so many different ways.

 

Instead he got cats. And it's difficult to be a cat herder.


Edited by Fsus4, 14 September 2016 - 21:03.


#7 Abissus

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Posted 14 September 2016 - 22:37

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Edited by Abissus, 14 September 2016 - 22:37.

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#8 DoubleDeep

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 07:54

Hopefully Ableton Link will get added, as it seems Ableton has made the technology open source.

http://www.synthtopi...r-desktop-apps/

 


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#9 joule

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Posted 15 September 2016 - 08:55

Sometimes I feel that I'd much rather have a dislike button added to the forum than a new version of Renoise released :)


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#10 Bungle

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 02:03

You can't answer this sort of questions on this messageboard. Everyone is going to comment with;

- we're must be happy with the Renoise version we have and don't complain
- cats

that's about it.

sad but true.

 

The only reason people say to be happy with the version of Renoise you have, is because it currently works as advertised, and nobody even knows if they are currently working on Renoise at all, they obviously have other jobs/enterprises to earn off, sometimes these have to take priority, if Renoise isn't doing what you want it to, then it may be time for you to consider investing in other software, unfortunately Renoise can not update as fast as Abletone or Imageline or Steinberg, this is just the economy of scale, those softwares have a lot of active users, renoise may have a lot of forum members, but very few people actually using the software in the grand scale of things, and even less paying for updates (Keep in mind here that paid updates for Renoise are very very rare)

 

The most unfortunate thing in terms of development, was creating all the scripting add on stuff, then continually changing it so a lot of old developments no longer worked, a hell of a lot of time went in to all that development, for what ? a couple of tools that to be perfectly honest are not actually that useful anyway (No disrespect to their developers, if you need them then they are great) there was a bit of a rush at first by users developing, now it is pretty much dead, and that is a lot of wasted development time to get all that scripting built in.

Take that development time, add a linear arranger, linear audio recording, and yes a piano roll, and bam, you have a huge bunch of interest, because the actual backbone of the software is rock solid.


Edited by Bungle, 21 September 2016 - 02:09.

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Meh

#11 robohymn

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 04:11

Scripting activity's slowed down, but danoise in particular is still putting out some amazing stuff and supporting it. Though I have to agree it's unfortunate a lot of plugins are effectively dead. I hope they never do audio tracks or a piano roll, instead I hope they innovate further with the tracker format and emphasize immediacy in writing music.

 

I recently sold a bunch of my old synths and got a bunch of new ones with great sequencers, nothing beats a good hardware sequencer for immediate gratification and getting ideas down fast and working with them... except maybe Renoise's pattern/phrase editor! Now that I'm accustomed to it I can get things down faster than I ever did in a piano roll (it's all in the key-commands -- right hand on computer keyboard, left hand on synth keyboard).

 

I'm sick of piano rolls, they can basically eat a dick. It's been piano rolls since the freakin 90s (yeh I know that's a bit ironic to say, trackers have been too) and it's a shit metaphor and I wish developers would have the guts to move beyond it, they need to start dropping the hardware studio metaphor for DAWs in general and embrace the computer for what it is. This is beginning to happen in products directed at electronic music producers, but it's still not really too exciting or new... just yet, it's getting there. I can see why guys who want to dick around with recording live drum kits and some idiot singer might want to stick with a hardware studio metaphor in a DAW, but for electronic music -- fuck it, let's head for outer space. And Renoise is one of the projects going there, I think.

 

I hate when I have to use Reaper's piano roll. And I left Logic partly because I got sick of basically needing to know how a hardware studio works in order to use a piece of software. It's not intuitive in the slightest, it's frankly awful. I feel liberated from it after so many years.

 

OK, I'll admit though that it might be nice to have another way to work with rendered audio besides turning it into a sampler instrument. (But that's what I use Reaper for.) Anyway Renoise remains for me the most interesting software sampler/sequencer going, I hope the devs continue with it and I really hope they don't waste their time trying to make Renoise more like the tired standards or trying to be everything to everyone.


Edited by robohymn, 21 September 2016 - 04:33.

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#12 fladd

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 12:41

The only reason people say to be happy with the version of Renoise you have, is because it currently works as advertised, and nobody even knows if they are currently working on Renoise at all, they obviously have other jobs/enterprises to earn off, sometimes these have to take priority, if Renoise isn't doing what you want it to, then it may be time for you to consider investing in other software, unfortunately Renoise can not update as fast as Abletone or Imageline or Steinberg, this is just the economy of scale, those softwares have a lot of active users, renoise may have a lot of forum members, but very few people actually using the software in the grand scale of things, and even less paying for updates (Keep in mind here that paid updates for Renoise are very very rare)

 

The most unfortunate thing in terms of development, was creating all the scripting add on stuff, then continually changing it so a lot of old developments no longer worked, a hell of a lot of time went in to all that development, for what ? a couple of tools that to be perfectly honest are not actually that useful anyway (No disrespect to their developers, if you need them then they are great) there was a bit of a rush at first by users developing, now it is pretty much dead, and that is a lot of wasted development time to get all that scripting built in.

Take that development time, add a linear arranger, linear audio recording, and yes a piano roll, and bam, you have a huge bunch of interest, because the actual backbone of the software is rock solid.

 

The constant backward incompatible API changes are certainly problematic, yes. Most of the nicest tools don't work anymore (e.g. Pking) unfortunately. I think the scripting had quite some potential, though. Who knows, maybe people get enthusiastic about it again, once LuaJIT will arrive in Renoise...



#13 kazaroval

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 13:45

I hope full VST support....... fairly reasonable asking for a daw in 2016 I think.......... was hopping for R3........ surprisingly and sadly did not happened ...... 8/



#14 Fsus4

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 17:18

The case for the blending of trackerism and linear DAW conventionalism is very much about making it easier for potential users to get accustomed to tracking. The scenario is quite simple to grasp: a new potential user installs Renoise and starts producing while standing on safe ground and familiar functionality, graphically dragging audio files into a linear arranger type of working space. Then gradually and progressively switching into the tracker view to manipulate the audio alphanumerically on a more detailed level.

 

Now the keyword here is "gradually". You simply can't expect people without any previous tracker background to install Renoise and then spend a lot of time aquiring the necessary tracking skills in order to get anywhere. However, by allowing such users to start using the software and get some instant gratification, operating within the familiar framework they already know from conventional DAWs, that would gradually push them towards exploring the tracker's powerful audio mangling capabilities and therefore also build up their new tracking skills.

 

So it really boils down to this: Closing the doors to standard conventional features such as audio tracks also means closing the doors to 99.9% of the music production market. For me and many other people that have used trackers since 1989 and Renoise since 2002, such closed door approach seems to be a very bad idea. We wish to see the tracker way of composing to become more accessable for more people. Having spent some 15+ years on developing a software such as Renoise, that already has most of the DAW stuff in it, why not simply make the most out of it? At least, why not make it easier for more people to start using it?


Edited by Fsus4, 21 September 2016 - 19:17.

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#15 ffx

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Posted 21 September 2016 - 18:07

I vote for blocks. Blocks! + pixelwise 60hz scrolling (nice for eyes) + side chaining (nice for ears) etc.  :w00t:


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#16 Bungle

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 13:37

There is no voting haha

 

The case for the blending of trackerism and linear DAW conventionalism is very much about making it easier for potential users to get accustomed to tracking. The scenario is quite simple to grasp: a new potential user installs Renoise and starts producing while standing on safe ground and familiar functionality, graphically dragging audio files into a linear arranger type of working space. Then gradually and progressively switching into the tracker view to manipulate the audio alphanumerically on a more detailed level.

 

Now the keyword here is "gradually". You simply can't expect people without any previous tracker background to install Renoise and then spend a lot of time aquiring the necessary tracking skills in order to get anywhere. However, by allowing such users to start using the software and get some instant gratification, operating within the familiar framework they already know from conventional DAWs, that would gradually push them towards exploring the tracker's powerful audio mangling capabilities and therefore also build up their new tracking skills.

 

So it really boils down to this: Closing the doors to standard conventional features such as audio tracks also means closing the doors to 99.9% of the music production market. For me and many other people that have used trackers since 1989 and Renoise since 2002, such closed door approach seems to be a very bad idea. We wish to see the tracker way of composing to become more accessable for more people. Having spent some 15+ years on developing a software such as Renoise, that already has most of the DAW stuff in it, why not simply make the most out of it? At least, why not make it easier for more people to start using it?

I doubt very much the developers care about 99.9% of music production market, when a project is a part time or simply done for the love of it, the developers tend to be more obstinate, everybody knows if they had chosen a different path that they would be up with the major players in the DAW world right now, they didn't, they wont and Renoise is and always be a hobby project, nothing wrong with that of course ;)


Meh

#17 pat

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 15:50

The case for the blending of trackerism and linear DAW conventionalism is very much about making it easier for potential users to get accustomed to tracking. The scenario is quite simple to grasp: a new potential user installs Renoise and starts producing while standing on safe ground and familiar functionality, graphically dragging audio files into a linear arranger type of working space. Then gradually and progressively switching into the tracker view to manipulate the audio alphanumerically on a more detailed level.

 

 

Doesn't Rewire make this workflow available to them?


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#18 Fsus4

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 17:20

I doubt very much the developers care about 99.9% of music production market, when a project is a part time or simply done for the love of it, the developers tend to be more obstinate, everybody knows if they had chosen a different path that they would be up with the major players in the DAW world right now, they didn't, they wont and Renoise is and always be a hobby project, nothing wrong with that of course ;)

 

Sure. It may be the case that the devs aren't really interested in having any more Renoise users. Enough is enough! Maybe they're actually even trying hard to reduce the number of users they already have. But it seems unlikely. I mean, why create Redux if they had no interest in entering new markets?

 

 

Doesn't Rewire make this workflow available to them?

 

It's certainly the closest you can get to such workflow, so thanks heavens for full ReWire support since version 2.1. But my main point is that if new users launch Renoise for the first time and won't have anything familiar to start from (and also get some instant gratification from), they won't spend the time to learn tracking at all. However, if the same potential user launches Renoise and immediately can arrange audio files in a way he's used to in all the major DAWs, chances are much higher that he'll explore and learn the unique tracker sample mangling features and then go further down the road and actually learn tracking.



#19 pat

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 22:45

It's certainly the closest you can get to such workflow, so thanks heavens for full ReWire support since version 2.1. But my main point is that if new users launch Renoise for the first time and won't have anything familiar to start from (and also get some instant gratification from), they won't spend the time to learn tracking at all. However, if the same potential user launches Renoise and immediately can arrange audio files in a way he's used to in all the major DAWs, chances are much higher that he'll explore and learn the unique tracker sample mangling features and then go further down the road and actually learn tracking.

 

 

Maybe. Or they'll just complain that it's missing a bunch of other DAW-like features, and wonder why all the tracker stuff is in the way.

 

Rewire and Redux both provide options for meeting DAW users halfway. If they want to do the tracker thing, they will. I don't see how adding DAW-specific features makes them any more likely to try the tracking side.

 

But it's not like what I say has any bearing on what will happen :)



#20 Fsus4

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Posted 22 September 2016 - 23:26

If they want to do the tracker thing, they will. I don't see how adding DAW-specific features makes them any more likely to try the tracking side.

 

Well, let's put it another way then. The most likley typical scenario today:

 

1. Electronic music producer without tracker background reads about Renoise somewhere (magazine, blog, forums...)

2. Thinks let's try something fresh and different. Decides to download and install the Renoise demo. 

3. Fiddles around, gets intimidated, watches a few tutorial videos.

4. Concludes the tracker way of composing is too slow compared to the piano rolls and linear arrangers he's used to.

5. Never reaches beyond the let's try out sessions, never adopts Renoise and never develops tracker skills.

6. Communicates with others in negative terms about his Renoise experience (in magazines, blogs, forums...)

 

OK. So, my proposed scenario for tomorrow:

 

1. Electronic music producer without tracker background reads about Renoise somewhere (magazine, blog, forums...)

2. Thinks let's try something fresh and different. Decides to download and install the Renoise demo. 

3. Fiddles around, drag and drop audio loops into the familiar linear arranger, presses some preset buttons with tracker effects on the audio.

4. Gets impressed with the immediate results (instant gratification).

5. Concludes the tracker way of composing is worth exploring further because of the unique FX stuff that can be done to samples.

6. Goes beyond the let's try out sessions, purchases a copy of Renoise and develops his new tracker skills further.

7. Communicates with others in positive terms about his Renoise experience (in magazines, blogs, forums...)

 

 

Now, what the familiar stuff would be about is an open issue. Doesn't have to be a linear arranger. Maybe something similar to dblue's Glitch interface would be better:

 

glitch210-screenshot.png

 

 

...or something similar to the clip launcher pads in Ableton Live and Bitwig Studio:

 

bts-mixer-clip-launcher.png

 

(BTW. Maybe it's only me - but isn't Renoise and Bitwig Studio quite close in terms of graphics and GUI?)

 

Again, my point is that you create another familiar default layer on top of the tracker/pattern editor that the common man without any previous tracker experience could easily handle and get started with for instant gratification. Then all the tracker/pattern editor/sample sequencing stuff would be more like the under-the-hood, detailed level control of things and therefore not feel intimidating.

 

But of course all my reasoning here presupposes that the Renoise team and the developers are actually interested in getting positive reviews and feedback, increased sales, more users, etc. If they are not, then of course there is no point in making it easier for people to like the software.


Edited by Fsus4, 23 September 2016 - 00:30.

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#21 Roppenzo

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 00:49

Well, let's put it another way then. The most likley typical scenario today:
 
.........
 
But of course all my reasoning here presupposes that the Renoise team and the developers are actually interested in getting positive reviews and feedback, increased sales, more users, etc. If they are not, then of course there is no point in making it easier for people to like the software.


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#22 pat

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 02:14

Well, let's put it another way then. The most likley typical scenario today:

 

1. Electronic music producer without tracker background reads about Renoise somewhere (magazine, blog, forums...)

2. Thinks let's try something fresh and different. Decides to download and install the Renoise demo. 

3. Fiddles around, gets intimidated, watches a few tutorial videos.

4. Concludes the tracker way of composing is too slow compared to the piano rolls and linear arrangers he's used to.

5. Never reaches beyond the let's try out sessions, never adopts Renoise and never develops tracker skills.

6. Communicates with others in negative terms about his Renoise experience (in magazines, blogs, forums...)

 

OK. So, my proposed scenario for tomorrow:

 

1. Electronic music producer without tracker background reads about Renoise somewhere (magazine, blog, forums...)

2. Thinks let's try something fresh and different. Decides to download and install the Renoise demo. 

3. Fiddles around, drag and drop audio loops into the familiar linear arranger, presses some preset buttons with tracker effects on the audio.

...

 

 

4. Ignores tracker functionality entirely, complains on forums that it's not more like Ableton / Bitwig / Logic / whatever

 

:)


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#23 Akiz

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 07:17

I would love to have possibility use matrix editor like clip editor. Just turn the "row synchronization" off :-)
This is the main thing a miss from Ableton / Bitwig. Phrases arent enough for fast and random pattern switching. 
 



#24 Roppenzo

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 09:02

I love the amount of activity on this forum when we're discussing updates and the future for Renoise :-)
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#25 Robbie S

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Posted 23 September 2016 - 09:26

Beer button.


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