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Whats next for Renoise?


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#151 thalamus

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 19:04

For me it's more about the devs opening up about their aspirations for Renoise, rather than a stone cold roadmap that we expect to be executed.

I'd just really like to know if the devs still have any appetite for the evolution of Renoise and maybe some words about their current projects. Just a bit of transparency and good will really because I think the community comes from a cool place and there is a lot of mutual respect.
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#152 Gavin Graham

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 22:17

For me it's more about the devs opening up about their aspirations for Renoise, rather than a stone cold roadmap that we expect to be executed.

I'd just really like to know if the devs still have any appetite for the evolution of Renoise and maybe some words about their current projects. Just a bit of transparency and good will really because I think the community comes from a cool place and there is a lot of mutual respect.

 

100% this.

 

Community engagement is important. It shows that users are important, helps drive expanding the user base and keep people connected to and enthused with future developments. Anyone who think community engagement isn't necessary needs to study marketing for at least a semester (or just a week - to get a clue)

 

A quick comparison (rough stats) of similarly priced DAWs:

Reaper: New versions consistently, Devs post daily. Listens to the community regarding bugs and features for the next version. You can see from their forum profile that they were last online 'today'

Waveform: New versions consistently. Devs post daily. Listens to the community regarding bugs and features for the next version. You can see from their forum profile that they were last online 'today'

Renoise: Last update 2 years 1 (maybe 2 bug fixes notwithstanding), No recent posts. Can't even tell you if the main Dev looks at the forum since his 'last online'  in his profile is set to 'private'.

 

Let's say I was just starting out and shopping around for a DAW. My criteria narrowed it down the the three aforementioned products. I WOULD be concerned as a potential new user about how engaged the devs are but I probably wouldn't even go as far as finding out how engaged they are when I read on the products website that the latest update was two years ago.

As a potential new customer, that would be where I stopped because I haven't yet bought and would not feel invested to pour through forums and the like to see what the story is. Maybe I would since my criteria mandates Linux support so I have narrow options but you Windows/OSX users have a plethora of competing products so I could imagine that you would just move on.

 

I've got more to say that I've kept bottled-up for some time. Yes they are criticisms but don't get me wrong, I've used Renoise for 5 years and make 7 albums with it - I love it. It's because I love it I feel obliged to be critical and being critical, as opposed to sledging can help it grow new features and fixes at the least. It's like as an Australian patriot I feel its my duty to hold my government accountable for what they do to the country I love. I am a Renoise patriot too.

 

I do have some critical words for this community too, unfortunately.

 

When people ask about new releases and features, they are often retorted with a paraphrase of "spend your time better by making music with it than asking (complaining)". That's not helpful advice. It's not like the people asking are consumed with their post and halt being productive. It's dismissive to respond that way. Luckily for me and being around these forums long enough, I get the in-joke of cat pictures and yeah, it's cools by me - but - imagine a new user coming into a thread about the future of the product to see it end up in a spray of cat pictures, it somewhat says "We've given up on asking about the products future". Turning this thread into cat pics is counter productive. The community is working against the product they love. To flip things around, wouldn't you be better of being productive in Renoise than wasting your time posting cat pictures? Hehehe. :) Oh that's right, you can do BOTH!!! 

 

My personal conclusion is that since the Renoise devs can't be arsed in talking to us, they don't really care about us which is probably an indicator that they don't particularly care about their product either. I mean, I spent maybe 20 minutes writing this so that isn't going to throw my life's schedule into chaos. If the Devs cared, you would think they could afford 20 minutes (at least once) to say something about the state of things. Would it kill them to do so? I don't think so, in fact a bit more involvement may halp sales eventually and more sales translates into more development effort - if they cared.

 

Instead of saying/thinking "don't bother asking" about the product. This should be a call to arms. We should rally and demand our devs to get on-board with us - even if its just to say "Hi!". 

 

This product and community will (and is) slowly atrophy as time marches on and the product starts to look more defunct. Do you want that? No you don't! Round up the troops!

 

Cheers,

Gavin

 

Btw, I'm happy to reply to any comments or challenges to my post as long as they aren't shitposts and offer some form of reasonable thought.


Edited by Gavin Graham, 18 April 2018 - 22:37.

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#153 The_Traveler

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 22:42

 

This product and community will (and is) slowly atrophy as time marches on and the product starts to look more defunct.

Well, it depends on how you wish to look at it. I've seen, as I'm sure many have, that some communities and products simply "find their level" and persist. Wings3d http://www.wings3d.com/ is one I can think of. A really excellent 3D modeler, never been mainstream, been around for years, and gets updates very occasionally. However, it has a dedicated community that does what this one does, creates tools, chats and contributes, etc. and keeps it alive. MilkyTracker http://milkytracker.titandemo.org/ is alive 20+ years on and still being used. The point, as I see it, is that if an application fits someone's needs, they'll stick with it regardless of how many updates it gets or "bells and whistles" people say it needs. Personally, I think Renoise is in that category. It's a very capable tracker. OpenMPT for example, while capable, gets regular updates sure. But, until OpenMPT fulfills a need that I can't get with Renoise, I stick with Renoise and use it in the domain it was intended for. :)

 

Cheers.


Edited by The_Traveler, 18 April 2018 - 22:55.

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#154 Gavin Graham

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 22:59

Well, it depends on how you wish to look at it. I've seen, as I'm sure many have, that some communities and products simply "find their level" and persist. Wings3d http://www.wings3d.com/ is one I can think of. A really excellent 3D modeler, never been mainstream, been around for years, and gets updates very occasionally. However, it has a dedicated community that does what this one does, creates tools, chats and contributes, etc. and keeps it alive. MilkyTracker http://milkytracker.titandemo.org/ is alive and well. The point, as I see it, is that if an application fits someone's needs, they'll stick with it regardless of how many updates it gets or "bells and whistles" people say it needs. Personally, I think Renoise is in that category. It's a very capable tracker. OpenMPT for example, while capable, gets regular updates sure. But, until OpenMPT fulfills a need that I can't get with Renoise, I stick with Renoise and use it in the domain it was intended for. :)

 

Cheers.

 

 

Ok sure, I see your point. May I counterpoint and see what you think.

 

We all (well, most of us) always try to improve ourselves. We grow upwards and strive to improve in our careers, hobbies, fitness, our art, and of course our music. It's a trait for us all to want to do better.

Now I can't speak of Wings3D directly but I could imagine that some people started with it and then since it hasn't got new features, they've moved on to another package that grows with them.

Wings and Renoise will always find new users to replace them as the feature set suits them initially but some of them may move on to as they outgrow it.

My point there is that it can seem like a stable community in terms of numbers but that relies on turnover or user churn.

 

I, for one, had to look elsewhere because although I did 7 albums with Renoise, It's just not fulfilling my needs anymore. I recently read a comprehensive review of another DAW where the reviewer states the same for them as to why they (totally) dropped Renoise. Press like that is not a good look for this awesome software. Surely you agree. :)

 

Wouldn't it be great if user retention was more of a thing. That way the product and community grows instead of maintain a status-quo. Though Renoise will always appeal to a niche, it could go beyond that niche and we all benefit by a growing user community.

 

Again, the flip-side is this hypothetical: Those mainstream DAWs (and I could kinda see Reaper pulling this stunt if they wanted) just need to add a tracker view and boom, I would think that Renoise would shrink considerably quickly and users could have more of everything in the other DAW. 

 

Besides, Renoise staying the same just smacks of a lack of ambition, I'm sorry to say. Isn't ambition the reason why we all strive to improve?

 

Ok, shoot! haha. :)


Edited by Gavin Graham, 18 April 2018 - 23:01.

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#155 The_Traveler

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Posted 18 April 2018 - 23:49

Ok Gavin, I'll counterpoint, your counterpoint. :)

 

 

It's just not fulfilling my needs anymore.

Right here. I contend that most applications have a "usable domain" in which they fulfill both an end-user's needs and the software developer's needs. If the two "needs requirement" remain collateral, then "success" for both is prolonged. I think of Reaper which gets a steady stream of updates and thus satisfies both the user base and developers. If either the end-user or the software creator doesn't see the software satisfying their need(s), perhaps it lacks a feature for the end-user or it's a developmental dead-end for the software developer, OR in the case of the developer, it DOES satisfy their need (reaches end-cycle and they don't see any need to further develop their software, met a sales goal, etc.) then it's natural to seek an alternative. Self improvement can certainly be considered here.

 

Having been a software programmer and developer for over 30 years in a number of usage domains, I can see a lot of reasons why the Renoise developers would, for the most part, discontinue active development.  I also understand dedicated users who wish to see programs continue to evolve, have new features added, gain market share, enhanced community involvement and growth and so on.

 

 

Though Renoise will always appeal to a niche, it could go beyond that niche and we all benefit by a growing user community.

Perhaps. However, as you say, it's a niche. Trackers were the mainstay for music composition on early computers for years, but other "styles" of DAWs evolved and trackers fell out of favor. Historically, we've never seen trackers regain that popularity. Of course, we can't rule out a "Tracker Renaissance" in the future, which like most "renewed interest" events I believe would be somewhat short-lived. I contend that Renoise, in it's present state, would be more than capable even then.

 

 

Cheers. :)


Edited by The_Traveler, 19 April 2018 - 20:38.

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#156 Gavin Graham

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 03:18

Having been a software programmer and developer for over 30 years in a number of usage domains, I can see a lot of reasons why the Renoise developers would, for the most part, discontinue active development. I also understand dedicated users who wish to see programs continue to evolve, have new features added, gain market share, enhanced community involvement and growth and so on.

So, you are an IT pro of around the same vintage as myself. Nice! You would be acutely aware of scope-creep then when it comes to software. It's generally a hard thing to push back against - though the Renoise developers have certainly got that under control. :)

By and large, I think we're pretty much in agreement on these points so there's not much I have to add to your last post.

You do mention the software developers "needs requirement" which I would call their overarching goals or remit for their product. But there in part lies the problem with Renoise, we are in an information vacuum and we as paying customers don't know even in a vague sense what the developers want to take this software - though the lack of updates or communication is probably a pretty good sign of that.

We seem to focusing in on new features for Renoise but that is not the entire story either. Even if the Devs see it in some way as being feature complete, there's the fact that computers are changing and Renoise isn't keep up and that can take it into obsolescence. For example, nowadays, all my screens are HiDPI and Renoise is looking terribly 'squinty' on these screens. I know there are work-arounds for this particular problem such as changing resolution or zooming DPI but they are nonetheless workarounds that come with a downside such as all my apps I have running while Renoise is open are affected and issues such as that.

So even current usability seems to be under threat. Also, we may reach a point where core OS-Level libraries such as LibSTDC may change to a point where breakage is inevitable. I don't know. This 2nd example is a little over simplified and a tad alarmist, I know but the first example of DPI holds true today.

Plus, Renoise isn't bug-free. No software is. At least other software (DAWs in this case) I have some confidence that their bugs will be remedied. With Renoise, it's feeling a lot like "You've got what you've been given" and you're lucky to get anything more. I know some fixes have happened but its that damn information vacuum that is killing me.

It's not like I've totally given up on Renoise. There's still many things I appreciate about it. For me, Redux is how I'm now using Renoise but that makes it more a supplementary than a primary tool.

I got one board with Tracktion with Waveform 8. Waveform 8 without Redux would not have been worth the switch over to it as W8 didn't offer some key fucntionality that I was getting with Renoise/Redux.
Then Waveform 9 came out with a kick-arse Multi-sampler. I stull use Redux for some certain modulations and effects but largely its W9 on its own.
I can foresee when Waveform 10 arrives next year (yes major revision every year), even those edge cases that I rely on Redux for will most like have gone away and so my need for Redux could disappear.

This is part of it. as other DAWs grow, Renoise/Redux is just going to feel longer in the tooth. To me, at least.

Fun times. Renoise has been good to me. I still love it just the same.

Edited by Gavin Graham, 19 April 2018 - 16:52.

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#157 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 11:05

Some thoughts...
 

Well, we, have 3 persons that give support or help about Renoise (and Redux), although they did not participate directly in Renoise's internal development: Achenar, DBlue and Danoise. Apparently Taktik was the only Renoise programmer. While he is not there, I do not think there's any news. The direct conclusion is that, if there is no news to comment, it is because there is nothing new really. Renoise's development is "on hold".

 

I also understand that these three types can not provide any official information, despite being continually participating in the forums, in a kind of support or user help. In fact, I believe that, currently, it is thanks to these three people, these forums continue with some activity. Presumably Taktik, the chief here, is responsible for that hermetic environment of little or no information. As we all know, he is busy with another job, unrelated to Renoise. Until he comes back and has some contact in the forums, do not expect anything new.

 

I would say that there are three aspects related to the development of Renoise:

  1. Bug fix. The most serious and important of all. If a user detects a bug and describes it in the forums, it is not conceivable that it will take 2 years or more for someone to solve it. It's too much time. For me it is the most important thing. There is no team of developers behind Renoise testing different scenarios to detect errors. This point is the one that indicates the greatest abandonment.
  2. Improve the characteristics that already exist. For example, drastically improve the automation editor, the editor of phrases (management of the same), review and improve the API available for tools as it is solved point 1 and a long list of details, which make it easier to driving.
  3. Remove certain feature that does not work at all well and add new features. That is, update Renoise to be more powerful and consistent with existing hardware. It is inconceivable that there are specific scenarios with a very powerful hardware where there are blockages, or some windows are locked, or that the GUI is not really fluid, rhythmically accompanied by the sound that is played. Here comes the issue of modernizing the Renoise GUI for high resolutions and removing BMP skins, upgrading to VST 3 and Renoise working fine with the plugin windows and things like that, which have a lot to do with the GUI in particular.

I think that Renoise's team (that is, Taktik) has all this in their heads, but in a state of pause because they are involved in another matter. If you take into account everything that has happened up to now, the fact of creating Redux was already a bad sign for Renoise. It is time not invested in Renoise! After launching Redux, Taktik went to work on another program that is not Renoise. It seems obvious to think that something has happened so that Renoise is paralyzed (and they go two). For business, money, conformism, or just for fatigue, refresh the mind in something else. Some explanation will be. Although that to us in the background we do not care. We just want to know the current state of things.

 

At the same time there are still requests from specific users: pianoroll, audio waves, even converting entire Renoise into a VST (it seems that Redux is not enough for some). They are things that are a bit out of place. It would be more than enough with a normal development of Renoise: cover bugs, improve what already exists and finally add certain features, eliminating what does not work well.

 

But the situation apparently is this: Renoise 3.1 --> Redux --> Other project... You can draw your own conclusions.


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#158 The_Traveler

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 14:06

Good points gentlemen. Well, we find ourselves in the "wait and see" queue it appears. We know something is being done as we've seen the version bump to 3.1.1 for some bug fixes http://forum.renoise...bugfix-release/ which are always appreciated. ( Frankly, lack of bug squashing was my only real complaint with Renoise so I'm happy for now. ) :)

 

Cheers.

 

 

 

 

 


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#159 m.arthur

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 16:35

 

 

I do have some critical words for this community too, unfortunately.

 

When people ask about new releases and features, they are often retorted with a paraphrase of "spend your time better by making music with it than asking (complaining)". That's not helpful advice. It's not like the people asking are consumed with their post and halt being productive. 

 

 

The problem here is that you're re-contextualizing this type of behavior into a scenario that, for me, doesn't match reality. I'm one of the posters who has made "spend your time making music..." comments, but I *never* did it in response to a well-meaning inquiry about the future development of the product. 

When you re-contextualize it as you've done above, sure it seems like a useless comment to make. But in reality, I make this comment when certain forum members have decided that *every* thread needs to be about their already-stated anger and frustration regarding the lack of development. When people start hijacking threads and repeating themselves over and over again because they are angry, then the comment of "maybe focus on making better music instead of ranting endlessly about Feature X you still don't have" makes a lot more sense. 


Edited by m.arthur, 19 April 2018 - 16:37.

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#160 lettuce

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 17:06

It would be great to have sampler - modulation - LFO cycles definable in ticks and lines...currently they can only be defined in beats and Hz.

 

I would really love to see the vibrato, tremelo and autopan commands creating cycles in time with song settings too.

 

Its a small thing but it would just be great for my purposes


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#161 Rpnz

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 19:18

Whats next for Renoise?


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#162 esaruoho

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 20:27

well, is taktik on twitter? could we tweet at him?
 


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#163 afta8

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 20:31

When people ask about new releases and features, they are often retorted with a paraphrase of "spend your time better by making music with it than asking (complaining)". That's not helpful advice.

 

I think it is helpful advice. It seems to me that in general some folks around here are having trouble accepting reality. There have been very clear statements made about the current status of Renoise, it's on hold, other projects are being worked on, this may or may not benefit Renoise in future. No amount of moaning, or wishing otherwise is going to change that.

 

The best way to predict what might happen in future is to extrapolate from previous behaviour and I personally draw some conclusions from this, one is that no amount of community activism on here is going to derail whatever plan Taktik has for Renoise and it's development, secondly it is extremely unlikely that future plans for Renoise will be shared, I don't think this has ever happened previously. Finally, will Renoise development continue? Probably...

 

My advice to anyone who finds themselves in a situation that they are not happy with is to focus on the things you can control, therefore in this context focussing on making music and working around the limitations present in Renoise is valid and good advice.


Edited by afta8, 19 April 2018 - 20:33.

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#164 Rpnz

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 21:50

There have been very clear statements made about the current status of Renoise, it's on hold, other projects are being worked on, this may or may not benefit Renoise in future. No amount of moaning, or wishing otherwise is going to change that.


Tell me.. how long ago were that statements made?

edit: found it: 09 November 2016 - 11:02

Edited by Rpnz, 19 April 2018 - 22:04.

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#165 Gavin Graham

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 22:03

@m.arthur

 

Hey. Look, I hear what your are saying and I'm not trying to start a witch-hunt here. Seriously.

 

This is how I see it - I don't read every post made, I skim read. I dont keep a mental map of who said what and how many times. SO when I read comments like that, I'm admittedly not reading it in context. I will contend to context doesn't really matter though. I'm sure other skim-read and in the case of potential new customer who may comes to the forums as part of their evaluation on whether they want to invest in this software, I feel confident in saying that they aren't going to read every post to get an appreciation of the context either.

 

It's not my place to tell anyone how to respond to ad-nauseum requests but I think our responses can all be made as if we are moderators. Myself, I would (if I felt so compelled to) respond by putting a link to a thread where their complaint is on-topic and politely ask that they keep it there. It's a tough one. Some times their repeated request (moan, whatever) may be valid in the thread's discussion, maybe not.

 

@afta8

 

I must respectfully disagree. Sorry.

I'm sure that people understand the reality and its the reality itself that they are challenging. The thinking of acceptance you suggest would stymy protest on many real-life matters even. People are compelled to challenge the status-quo - to not do so is quite defeatist.

Think of it as a positive! If people are so inclined to whinge, moan, protest then that shows that they are passionate about the issue - they love Renoise!.

I've only decided to speak up not because I have nothing better to do (I've done 7 albums in under year on Renoise - I'm prolific) but because I love this software. It is easily one one the best purchases I've made and I want to see iit develop new features and foster expanding community interest.

 

We all have an idea what Taktik is working on. It would be nice though if it wasn't such a hearsay environment.  When you say "Probably..." to whether Renoise development will continue, you're highlighting part of the issue. A "probable" is not a "yes". We don't know. 

If I was to invest in Renoise today (regardless of how cheap it is) I would think that I've got a good deal with having free upgrades for one whole version. But then I probably wouldn't purchase if I realised how infrequently this software is updated.

 

Taktik is not transparent. But if people start to voice that they want more from him, he may consider one day consider to be more active on these forums. People are known to change their minds! 

 

My advice is to never just accept the status-quo. 

 

Gavin


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#166 Rpnz

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 22:06

..but because I love this software. It is easily one one the best purchases I've made and I want to see iit develop new features and foster expanding community interest.


amen to that.
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#167 afta8

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Posted 19 April 2018 - 22:43

@afta8

 

I must respectfully disagree. Sorry.

 

It's cool man, no need to apologise :)

 

I'm with you on many of the points you make, I share your passion for the product and would love to see new features etc.. But I also have to respect the fact the 'Renoise Inc' is a private entity, this isn't a democracy, nor is it a cooperative open source project, nor is it a kickstarter style project where specific promises were made.

 

The seller/customer relationship is clear, they make a product, if we like it we buy it. What we get is whatever the product is at that point in time, not a promise of what it could be in future. You may find this status quo unacceptable but the reality is there is very little you can do to change it and trying too hard to change it IMO is disrespectful to the rights of those behind Renoise and the choices they have made.

 

'Probably' is good enough for me because I am comfortable with uncertainty, but thats a personal philosophical viewpoint and I accept this is not something everyone shares, however I think exerting effort into trying to change the current situation is a waste of time.


Edited by afta8, 19 April 2018 - 22:44.


#168 lettuce

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 00:22

.. imo the only information that is very vaguely suggested by Mr Muellers github activity is that Renoise "might benefit on the long haul" by experience with software supporting timestretching.

 

Granular :

 

Stretch : Granular stretching. Neutral at original pitch , tempo

 

Stretch HD : Multi-band granular stretching

 

Slice : Slices audio at onsets with ping-pong looping

 

Cyclic : Retro stretching inspired by classic samplers

 

Elastique solo : Formant preserving stretching for solo voice and instruments

 

Spectral :

 

Elastique : Transient preserving spectral stretching

 

Elastique Eco : Spectral stretching

 

Elastique pro : Transient preserving spectral stretching with formant control

 

Unstretched :

 

Raw : Leaves audio untouched but provides no beat / time synchronization

 

Repitch : Synchronizes beat / time by altering pitch



#169 joule

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 07:58

kubler-1024x806-1-1024x806.jpg


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#170 Arpad

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 08:02

Hi Renoisers!

I'm a new forum user here. I don't own any Renoise stuff yet.

Nowadays I was demoing Renoise Redux, and can say this is really powerful.

The sampler, the phrase editor, the effect and the modulation chains together make it easy to create complex sounds quickly.

In the past I used trackers, so I understand 100% this concept.

 

However I can't decide to buy Redux.

I have Kontakt installed, and

the sampler/effect/modulation part can be done in Kontakt. And instead of using phrase editor, I can program phrases in my daw (Reaper) or in another arpeggiator plugin.

 

So I like the main concept of Redux, but Kontakt gives similar results.

 

And there are some things I don't like/know in Redux:

-Gui: resizing fonts are OK, but resizing gui would be the real thing

-what about development? Redux was released almost 3 years ago, Did it receive any update since then? What about future versions?

a bit more transparency about development would be good... I don'think that is the case, but I could think this project is similar to Jeskola Buzz /development stopped/

-What about support? I almost decided to buy Redux, but before buying, I have sent a question to renoise. It was 6 days ago, dunno when this will be answered...

 

So still didn't buy, but keep an eye on Redux.


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#171 El°HYM

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 08:07

Man, me would luv to tweet @tactic about all kinds of renoise - related stuff!  :ph34r:  :walkman:  :yeah:

well, is taktik on twitter? could we tweet at him?
 


Inside ur Renoise; helping Byte-Smasher putting Cab Sims on ur Master.  :ph34r: 


#172 esaruoho

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 09:01

Man, me would luv to tweet @tactic about all kinds of renoise - related stuff!  :ph34r:  :walkman:  :yeah:

 

 

lies. it is actually @taktik . but account has not been active since 2008.


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More API functions, please! ;) http://forum.renoise.com/index.php/topic/26329-the-api-wishlist-thread/page-3#entry240266

#173 El°HYM

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 09:07


Inside ur Renoise; helping Byte-Smasher putting Cab Sims on ur Master.  :ph34r: 


#174 The_Traveler

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 14:58

So, has any one actually contacted taktik and inquired about taking over and maintaining Renoise? I would think that with a dedicated community such as this, there would be people with the organizational and programming skills to help kill the "wishlist and wait" cycle. It wouldn't be necessary for taktik to give up ownership, just select a "steering committee" to oversee code changes to the core, feature additions and bug squashing. It could still remain a commercial product (I for one would contribute time and code just to see Renoise advance). 

 

Cheers.



#175 ffx

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Posted 22 April 2018 - 16:46

I can understand that Taktik Has no interest in open source the code. There is a lot of knowledge and brain in renoise. Still he could open the source for a trusted selection of people and profit from teamwork. Maybe it is a question of trust and control.

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