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Best way to time samples with long attack?

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#1 whisp

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 21:27

I'm using sample libraries with Kontakt 5. Many of them, especially the orchestra samples, have a relatively long attack, e.g. strings. This causes them to be off rhythm with e.g. the percussion (or the metronome). So i have to put them one line/beat (or more) in front and additionally work with the delay column. It's quite a bit of work to find the right delay and for some instruments it even differs per note. Also for the very first note in a pattern i have to move it to the last line of the previous pattern.

 

Is there a better way to do this?

 

Thanks for any hints!

 

whisp


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#2 lwpss

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Posted 30 September 2016 - 10:43

Well, in theory you could set a negative delay in mixer device for your strings track, but I'm not really sure if it'll help much.

tbh, I think Renoise is not a best tool for such a task. Consider using some other DAW.



#3 keith303

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Posted 30 September 2016 - 18:52

it doesn't sound like you're using strings with a long attack, but strings with a slighty delayed attack and you are probably trying to play them rhythmically in staccato.

if so, you might be able to adjust the sample start in kontakt in order to cut  the first bits of the sample.

 

i also remember issues like this when using project sam's symphobia library years back. these samples were just badly cut and aligned. not chance if using the original frontend.


Edited by keith303, 30 September 2016 - 18:53.


#4 OopsIFly

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Posted 30 September 2016 - 19:46

You can right click the time scales above/below the waveform view of a sample. Set it to "beats", then you see a scale for I think C4 that should adapt with transpose and song speed. Then you can insert silence, and cut through it to align the intended "peak" of the sample to a certain beat from beginning, and place the notes ahead by that amount of beats.

 

This won't work with changing pitch of the sample (playing melodies with it), as the nature of sampling is that playback speed would change then also and shift away the "peak" in time. Well, if you only use a few notes, you could copy the samples around the keyzones, and sync all copies the same way as described above, each of them individually and taking transpose into acount.

 

Edit: my further take on this, when having to pitch it...if you're working with samples like violins fading in and then making a hit, those are not really one note but two, and could be split into 2 samples/instruments, the fade in and the peak being sequenced individually.


Edited by OopsIFly, 30 September 2016 - 19:50.


#5 DonStroganotti

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 00:58

Setting a negative track delay is how this is handled in pretty much any DAW. If it differs per note then I guess you have to work with the delay column, but that shouldn't be a common problem.



#6 whisp

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 09:41

Hey, thanks for all the answers.

 

@Iwpss & @DonStroganotti: The negative delay is a feature i didn't know about (even though i saw the millisecond text-box in the mixer channels and wondered what it is good for). Sounds like a good solution. The samples are from CineSamples and i think the dilay should be consistent, with exception of Voxos' Phrase-Builder sounds. Not sure why you suggest a different DAW, though. (In general i'm pretty used to tracker DAWs, played a bit with FastTracker 2 a long time ago and then Buzz, while i never liked the Piano Roll design of other DAWs.)

 

@keith303: Not sure if i just used the wrong terms, i'm not used to them. At least there's no silent delay before the samples, if it's that what you mean. The library comes with different articulations, in some articulations the samples play in time, the main problem are the sustain samples which have this long attack or legato or however to call it :).

 

@OopsFly: I have to check this, i'm not absolutely sure what you mean or if this helps me, since i assume you're talking of Renoise standard-sample features, where the instrument itself is based on the sample (while my instrument is a plug-in sample player that plays some kind of special sample-format)



#7 danoise

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 14:36

Another thing to check out when dealing with slight per-note delays: the 'Nudge' feature, located in Advanced Edit > Notes.
All it does is to insert/change the delay-column value of notes in the selected scope...but not having to do it for each and every one can save some time and effort.

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#8 whisp

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Posted 01 October 2016 - 18:27

@danoise: Thanks, that might become handy, although right now the mixer delay does a pretty decent job.

 

But there is one problem with the mixer delay: i can only set it to a maximum negative delay of 100ms, but the strings legato section needs a -150ms delay. Is there some way to raise this limit? Or maybe an addon that enables this?



#9 DonStroganotti

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 01:54

@danoise: Thanks, that might become handy, although right now the mixer delay does a pretty decent job.

 

But there is one problem with the mixer delay: i can only set it to a maximum negative delay of 100ms, but the strings legato section needs a -150ms delay. Is there some way to raise this limit? Or maybe an addon that enables this?

I use cinesamples cinestrings a lot and a track delay of about -50 or -60 usually works great, cinesamples has a legato speed option as well that makes the note transitions faster. I usually separate short and long articulations to different tracks and shorts seem to work fine with around -20 track pre delay. for delays larger than -100(which should be quite rare) you can nudge the whole track as danoise said.



#10 whisp

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 09:36

I use cinesamples cinestrings a lot and a track delay of about -50 or -60 usually works great, cinesamples has a legato speed option as well that makes the note transitions faster. I usually separate short and long articulations to different tracks and shorts seem to work fine with around -20 track pre delay. for delays larger than -100(which should be quite rare) you can nudge the whole track as danoise said.

 

If you believe it or not: Before i posted here i heard that the strings are off rhythm, still, with the -100ms seconds delay. Even the cinestrings docs (cinestrings core 1.2) state this delay:

 

The legato transitions when played normally (i.e. not a fast moving line) will take roughly 150ms to land on the next note when the legato speed knob is at 12 o'clock (50%) ... While there is plenty of bow noise and other things happening in this small window (which is why we left it in) this could cause a bit of "delay" to your programming.

 

I'm still interested in raising the mixer delay limit to -150ms, if it's possible at all. If not, i will certainly have to go with the delay column.

 

Edit: Sorry if i sounded a bit grumpy, just got up and hadn't my breakfast, yet :D


Edited by whisp, 02 October 2016 - 10:06.


#11 DonStroganotti

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Posted 02 October 2016 - 14:29

Yea that's why I've usually tweaked the legato speed knob to make the transitions match my pre delay. As a side note, I bought reaper two days ago and ran into this exact problem, and reaper doesnt have track delay at all! I really hope I can live without it or it is back to renoise for orchestral music....







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