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Is Renoise terminated?

update VST keyzone multitimbral

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#1 Finnishcoffee

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 02:59

Greetings.
 

I just registered on to this forum thing to ask one question:

Is there still development on this tracker at all?
 

I have been using the demo for quite some time but l would much prefer to know if anyone is still working on this before spending that much money on a program that may never get any more updates.
 

What I'm looking for is keyzone working with VST, not just samples. 

Being able to "solo" more then one VST without using the very complicated and ineffective MIDI routing.

 

I work with VST's exclusively so the MIDI workflow and ability to combine several VST's for live play is vital.
Sadly, I hate the other DAW's out there. I much prefer the tracker and I also use a mix of 32 & 64 bit VST's that Renoise doesn't have much of a problem with on my Win 7 x64 system.

 

The rundown of this post is that the pricetag for this software is very high in relation to my puny income and will sting. But if this program is still being worked on, it's the closest thing I've seen so far to what I want for my VST musicmaking...

 

VST keyzones and a better way to play more then one selected VST instrument at the same time is really all that's missing for me... Well, and mp3 rendering. :P

 

 



#2 toblerpone

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 03:23

Of course it's still being developed, simply updates have never been extremely frequent. http://www.renoise.c...e/release-notes


Edited by toblerpone, 06 November 2016 - 03:24.


#3 Finnishcoffee

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 03:39

:huh:

 

That is rare indeed... I shall ponder on this with a fresh made pot of coffee...



#4 xbitz

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 06:33

VST keyzones and a better way to play more then one selected VST instrument at the same time is really all that's missing for me... 

yepp same feelings, IMO currently a MUX Modular wrapper is the best solution to solve this



can create keyzones, can use multi-out, has drag and drop support also has inbuilt macro system which can be connected directly to a Doofer one etc. (ok ... it's also costs some money)


Edited by xbitz, 06 November 2016 - 06:44.


#5 danoise

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 11:55

What I'm looking for is keyzone working with VST, not just samples. 
Being able to "solo" more then one VST without using the very complicated and ineffective MIDI routing.

 
Using Midi > Input Device, it's possible to stack/split connections between MIDI gear and instrument keyboard ranges.
So, Renoise essentially does what you want, but it does not have the visual convenience of the keyzone. You have the "Routing Overview" but that requires more than a single glance at the screen to tell what's going on. Would be nice to have a better design of this component.

Or do you need the velocity axis too? It would be pretty cool if it was possible to, say, ignore the velocity information, without doing this globally (in preferences). Using the keyzone as a metaphor, that would be the "Key > Pitch" toggle button, again working on a per-instrument basis. 
 

mp3 rendering. :P

 

Mmmmm... render to encoder hotfolder? 


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#6 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 13:20

Sometimes I think I'm not in tune with some Renoise users. If there were improvements to use VSTi more comfortably, would be great! But basically Renoise 3.1 already has the basics to defend myself.

 

I use several VSTi and heavy libraries (sounding as I like for orchestral music, original soundtrack type, for example: Kontakt 5) and I play live to record the tunes, with a keyboard midi simple 61-key (with previous midi mapping) and then the adjustments and arrangements.

 

I simply add the VSTi in a slot in the instrument box and then use the routing, if the VSTi permits (several buses, many VSTi includes a single bus). I also try not to overload effects. Some composers are put through these things.

 

I admit that at first I struggled to learn the management of routing VSTi (the issue of "VST alias"), but once understood, it is repetitive, makes it easy; what repetitive is good and easy in Renoise. Perhaps complicated is the variety of VSTi, with the way it has each load of their libraries. Overall, VSTi management is complicated a little. I do not know if there is a specific video tutorial about this, but it would be good...

 

Regarding the price of Renoise I do not consider expensive absolutely, quite the opposite. The licence Renoise is a cheap software as it offers a lot of features that many today still ignored. His only problem is its slow development. Of course it is worth saving to buy and support this software. The more buy better to continue its development. Renoise still has a long journey, more even if for a simple update of bugs need to wait more than a year, and not to forget Redux, a drag on efforts to Renoise...

 

Finnishcoffee, some forum members "are fighting" continually for Renoise not stop to evolve and improve. There are good ideas in these forums. Worth it!

 

Take patience and coffee...


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#7 Fsus4

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 17:44

Speaking of patience, this particular forum post from taktik is worth reading again today:

 

http://forum.renoise...lease/?p=293449



#8 xbitz

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Posted 06 November 2016 - 19:28

Sometimes I think I'm not in tune with some Renoise users. If there were improvements to use VSTi more comfortably, would be great! But basically Renoise 3.1 already has the basics to defend myself.

still learning Renoise not sure what is the easiest way for layering, AFAIK there are two easy way

using the Sync All Notes In Group tool https://www.renoise....-notes-in-group
or using some modular VST host ( Metaplugin by DDMF, MUX etc) and dropping the VST(i) into them then driving them from a common track

currently the second one,  especially with MUX  seems the easiest, especially if I'd like to create common automation(without using tons of Doofers) macros to all the included instruments


Edited by xbitz, 06 November 2016 - 19:31.


#9 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 07 November 2016 - 12:09

yes renoise is dead , all the developers have been bought out by apple , they are now working on a ios tracker with piano roll 


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#10 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 07 November 2016 - 12:40

Speaking of patience, this particular forum post from taktik is worth reading again today:

 

http://forum.renoise...lease/?p=293449

 

Yes! We hope to continue having surprises... but really the forums would be dead.

 

yes renoise is dead , all the developers have been bought out by apple , they are now working on a ios tracker with piano roll 

 

You do not make jokes, some users may take your words seriously!  :unsure:

 

still learning Renoise not sure what is the easiest way for layering, AFAIK there are two easy way

using the Sync All Notes In Group tool https://www.renoise....-notes-in-group
or using some modular VST host ( Metaplugin by DDMF, MUX etc) and dropping the VST(i) into them then driving them from a common track

currently the second one,  especially with MUX  seems the easiest, especially if I'd like to create common automation(without using tons of Doofers) macros to all the included instruments

 

I will look at all this. However, I am happy using each VSTi for each track separately, and if I have to group, use groups in pattern editor and then the effects on group work with VSTi.

 

But I recognize that users starting, it will be difficult to handle VSTi at first. It happened to me. My great desire is to improve the Automation Editor drastically for the future. This will help to better control the VSTi to compose. Also use automation parameters in the pattern editor, but I'd rather have cleaner...


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#11 toblerpone

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Posted 07 November 2016 - 12:48

You do not make jokes, some users may take your words seriously!  :unsure:

Taktik took a bike ride and now works at Ableton instead, he created Ableton link and their new sample slice system in exchange for the filters we got in redux. On the plus side, 3.2 will have Ableton link.


Edited by toblerpone, 07 November 2016 - 14:55.


#12 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 07 November 2016 - 14:23

Taktik took a bike ride and now works at Ableton instead, he created Ableton link. On the plus side, 3.2 will have Ableton link.

 

I understood that was allied with Bitwing!  ^_^ Renoise-Bitwing fusion: "Bitrenowingise" is the new project... The name is too long for people to talk.


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#13 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 07 November 2016 - 14:51

Hi xbitz, thanks for the info. I like MUX, but it costs 59 €. However, I leave the official link, if anyone cares:

 

http://www.mutools.c...ux-product.html

 


Edited by Raul (ulneiz), 07 November 2016 - 14:58.

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#14 Finnishcoffee

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Posted 08 November 2016 - 01:57

yepp same feelings, IMO currently a MUX Modular wrapper is the best solution to solve this



can create keyzones, can use multi-out, has drag and drop support also has inbuilt macro system which can be connected directly to a Doofer one etc. (ok ... it's also costs some money)

Ehum... That goes a little beyond my horizon. Muxers and doofers and all that. I can't even buy a pizza without worrying if the money gonna last the rest of the month so the muxer thing for 60 bucks is like grasping for the moon at the time being (as is the ReNoise license)
 

I have several kinks to fight with for the MIDI routing that are quite frustrating...

 

For now. this is what I have to do all the time with the MIDI device routing;

Using a M-Audio Key 69 I can set up to 4 keyzones on it using seperate channels. But it's a rather poor workaround for the pitch and mod-wheel will then be limited to only one of those channels and will hence not work on the other instruments. 

 

Problem nr 2 with the MIDI routing is that Mute/Solo does not work properly. For some mysterious reason, ReNoise still plays all the VST and trigger all their notes on the track, it only mutes the sound. There is a thing in Options supposedly to fix that but it doesn't work properly. Using a ton of VST's, this eventually borks the CPU with overload at some 8-16 tracks going on and all the VST are processed, even the ones that are temporarily muted.
 

Problem nr 3 with MIDI routing is that some VST, quite many in fact, will only work on Omni-channel. This also complicates it with the built in Keyzone per MIDI channel on my M-Audio controller.

Problem nr 4 is that I record a lot of it all live, as in real time playing, and the inability to rather swiftly swap instruments on and off makes that needlessly difficult.

This should be done with the numerical keys used for instrument selection being toggles, and VST's should be working as they get highlighted in instrument window rather the complicated MIDI-routing and then manually pull down the volume sliders per track on my M-Audio controller or similar. 

For example, in Sudio One, the only thing I like about that software is the "monitor" button each instrument has. This does the trick for VST. It toggles them on and off. Literally, as in no note triggers or sound. And it allows for as many VSTs as the CPU can handle to be played at any given time, no matter what channel they are on. 
It shouldn't be that hard to make ReNoise instrument selection window and the numerical keys do same thing. 

Just some thoughts.  :walkman:

 

 

Speaking of patience, this particular forum post from taktik is worth reading again today:

 

http://forum.renoise...lease/?p=293449

 
Sadly... That thread is 3 years old. Don't want to sound pessimistic or anything but I'm not a young man and if the updates are years between, I may just have to give up on this alltogether. My hearing and vision are not getting better with old age. This is the reason I was asking if it was worth to purchase the license. I don't feel good about paying that amount of money (Some of you say its cheap, but you guys don't know my situation - everything is relative, especially pricetags) for something that may or may not ever happen at all. Does that make sense? - Had the updates been weeks or maybe months between. Ok, I'd find a way to scrounge up the cash. But not with the way it is now I'm afraid. I can't motivate that.

Appretiate all the replies here so far though. 
 
** Edited a few times for the most brutal typos... **

Edited by Finnishcoffee, 08 November 2016 - 02:07.


#15 Fsus4

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Posted 08 November 2016 - 03:03

Speaking of patience, this particular forum post from taktik is worth reading again today:

 

http://forum.renoise...lease/?p=293449

 
Sadly... That thread is 3 years old. Don't want to sound pessimistic or anything but I'm not a young man and if the updates are years between, I may just have to give up on this alltogether. My hearing and vision are not getting better with old age. This is the reason I was asking if it was worth to purchase the license. I don't feel good about paying that amount of money (Some of you say its cheap, but you guys don't know my situation - everything is relative, especially pricetags) for something that may or may not ever happen at all. Does that make sense? - Had the updates been weeks or maybe months between. Ok, I'd find a way to scrounge up the cash. But not with the way it is now I'm afraid. I can't motivate that.

 

Renoise is just like any other product in that you buy the actual thing, not some potential future version of that thing. So if you conclude that Renoise currently doesn't meet your requirements in terms of needed features, it seems quite reasonable to not buy a full license for this particular tool --- especially if money is an issue.

 

It's a bit tough to deal with the fact that Renoise development seems to get slower and slower for each new release. But at the same time it seems reasonable as the codebase gets more complex and the team stays small.

 

However, let's not rule out the developers' sense of idealism here.

 

Maybe they are willing at some point to actually discuss alternative paths for this great project to live and prosper. 

 

Now, my eldest son is 17 and very much into game programming. He said to me the other day, as he demonstrated his new Playstation VR stuff, "Dad, maybe in 10 years from now we'll see innovative music software in a virtual reality framework". Then he showed me the stuff he's doing in Unreal Engine and I have to say that the text on their website really got me, so I'll quote it here:

 

 


If you love something,

Set it free

Unreal Engine is now FREE
FREE for game development. FREE for Virtual Reality.
FREE for education. FREE for architecture. FREE for film.

 

Pay a 5% royalty on games and applications you release. We succeed when you succeed.

 

(Quoted from:  https://www.unrealen...unreal-engine-4  )

 

Now maybe the developers of Renoise are open to similar thoughts in the future. At least that's what I'm hoping for, and I've been using Renoise since 2002 so I guess I've been patient enough. If they were to make it possible to license portions of the codebase rather than the compiled software, we're talking a whole new game.

 

Let's not rule anything out. Maybe a "Renoise Engine" is there on the horizon. Maybe we'll once again see the great tracker community flourish.


Edited by Fsus4, 08 November 2016 - 03:25.


#16 f+d+k

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Posted 08 November 2016 - 11:17

If you can't afford Renoise, then use the demo, create a great track for MBC#9 (ask someone to render your XRNS), win the bucks, and buy Renoise. ;)



#17 antic

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Posted 08 November 2016 - 11:41

Actually I was considering the same - whether to buy the full version in light of slow / sporadic updates - but came to the conclusion that current v3.1 already does much more than I need, so I've bitten the bullet.

 

Fingers crossed for new features and all that, but I'd be happy with my purchase even if v3.1 was the last one we get.



#18 danoise

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Posted 08 November 2016 - 12:37

Using a M-Audio Key 69 I can set up to 4 keyzones on it using seperate channels. But it's a rather poor workaround for the pitch and mod-wheel will then be limited to only one of those channels and will hence not work on the other instruments.

 
You want a traditional split keyboard, with various ranges playing different instruments?
Maybe I didn't completely understand what you are trying to achieve, but you can achieve this via Midi > Input - the splits are saved as part of the song. See my previous answer?
 

Problem nr 2 with the MIDI routing is that Mute/Solo does not work properly. For some mysterious reason, ReNoise still plays all the VST and trigger all their notes on the track, it only mutes the sound.

 

Yes, tracks can be muted in two ways. Here's how I usually understand them:

 

I always likened it to the difference between a conductor and a producer. 
 
Off = conductor telling orchestra to stop playing, eventually comes to a halt
Mute = producer turning down fader, instant change but band is still playing 

 
So, depending on what you choose, MIDI mapping the mixer solo/mute buttons will have either one behavior.

Note: matrix mutes will always use Off

 

Problem nr 4 is that I record a lot of it all live, as in real time playing, and the inability to rather swiftly swap instruments on and off makes that needlessly difficult.
This should be done with the numerical keys used for instrument selection being toggles, and VST's should be working as they get highlighted in instrument window rather the complicated MIDI-routing and then manually pull down the volume sliders per track on my M-Audio controller or similar. 

For example, in Sudio One, the only thing I like about that software is the "monitor" button each instrument has. This does the trick for VST. It toggles them on and off. Literally, as in no note triggers or sound. And it allows for as many VSTs as the CPU can handle to be played at any given time, no matter what channel they are on. 
It shouldn't be that hard to make ReNoise instrument selection window and the numerical keys do same thing. 

Just some thoughts.  :walkman:

 

 

Ok, that's a different scenario. Some of these plugins are so heavy that, even in the idle state they're bringing down performance? 

Unfortunately, there's no explicit "enable/disable this plugin" switch in Renoise. Closest thing is the "Auto suspend", which is located here for effects, and simularly in the Plugin panel for VST/AU instruments

I'd use this feature with caution - possible side-effects include plugins loosing the timing, trouble when rendering and so on..


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#19 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 08 November 2016 - 13:18

Note: Read this comment before the last of Danoise. He got ahead of me  ^_^

 

Hi Finnishcoffee. I'm going to be honest. In my case, the price of Renoise for Spain is: 58,00€ (+ VAT 12,18€) = 70,18€ (euros). I suppose in other countries the price will vary. I have a licence for Renoise and other licence for Redux. I bought Redux to support Renoise's project, although I know I was not going to use it widely. And I do not have the money either, I had to save. And honestly, I did not like that the team of Renose spending time in Redux. Because it is development time not invested directly in Renoise, but it is a small team and needs to be financed in some way, I suppose...

 

Now compare the price of Renoise with other DAWs. Then you will see that Renoise is the DAW more cheaper. Therefore, the problem is not the cheap price of Renoise, but rather their purchasing power. If you can not buy it, I suggest you save. The reason is that version 3.1, without any future update, already has a value much higher than 70 €. You are lucky to buy it at a price that is contained. You buy a DAW with 14 years of history. It is no small thing. If you ask for more complicated things, maybe you should save more money, and buy other software in the future.

 

If you want to compose and record live with VSTi, I suggest you do it per steps. Play one instrument. Ends. Then another, and so it goes completing its composition. I only use a midi keyboard for everything. But maybe you can connect more keyboards or midi devices and routing (more money). 

 

However, it would be a great help to create a keyzones for a keyboard midi only for control various VSTi in the same time and have a visual aid. It would be more sophisticated than using XRNI renoise instruments and his keyzones section, but it would be advanced level already. Danoise says something about it, but it looks very complicated to control with the view. Maybe other users who have multiple connected midi devices can help, since they will be more involved in the matter...

 

Right now I have a 61-key midi keyboard with 16 additional pads (Novation Launchkey 61). I do not know if I can assign the keys to a VST # 1, and the pads to a VSTi # 2... So with the keyboard playing a multi-octave instrument, and with the pads, the percussion, for example. The problem is to assign each pad the specific percussion within the VSTi. All this I see already convoluted.

 

Regarding the updates, it is true. Many of the renoisers are older with age and tired sight. In the forums is full of comments of complaints about the lack of faster updates, because users get older, I included, and is desolating... And we also need a Renoise to accept larger screen resolutions so as not to break the view. I'm sure the developers know it. Something they are doing behind closed doors to solve it... even with his small team.

 

MUX cost 59€ (per Paypal, checked). That's why I put the price. It seems like an out of place solution, more so it can cost more than the DAW Renoise itself.

 

And then another reflection: If it can hurt to buy Renoise's license, how much will it hurt to buy several VSTi of a certain quality? Because the prices of these are not cheap precisely...


Edited by Raul (ulneiz), 08 November 2016 - 13:22.

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#20 TheBellows

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Posted 08 November 2016 - 17:42

yes renoise is dead , all the developers have been bought out by apple , they are now working on a ios tracker with piano roll 

You have to buy an iphone or ipad, a special controller connected to the mini jack connector that is discontinued, so you then need a special adapter for only 995,- and link it up with the iwatch to make it work. You save files directly into icloud, which automatically publishes it on itunes. You may buy the rights to your song for a small fee.


Edited by TheBellows, 08 November 2016 - 17:44.


#21 Rpnz

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Posted 08 November 2016 - 20:39

Renoise is just like any other product in that you buy the actual thing, not some potential future version of that thing.


Nope.

https://www.renoise.com/shop

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Full version license (3.1 - 4.1)

Your license is valid for one full version. For example, if you start with Renoise 2.7 you'll get updates up until, and including, 3.7. Our point releases pack features, not just maintenance updates. Check out our release notes and see for yourself what a great value this represents.


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#22 taktik

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 11:02

Na, it's not "terminated", but we're currently indeed busy with something else which has nothing directly to do with Renoise, but may benefit it on a long term. For this year we've only a little Renoise bug fix release planed and a few updates to the contents/libraries.

 

Either way, use it for what it is and not for what it maybe could be.


  • Conner_Bw, Djeroek, Rpnz and 17 others like this

#23 The_Traveler

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 20:07

 

Either way, use it for what it is and not for what it maybe could be.

Good to get a little feedback and some sage advice. Thank you.

 



#24 Finnishcoffee

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 21:16

OK I'm back on this forum and I just tried out renoise 3.1 (been using 2.8 previously).
I still have this exact same problem and I feel I have to try explain it different then the first time.

When in "edit" mode - The problem is when using more then one instrument (VST) that Renoise is recording every single keynote on every track at all times.
This is what is creating the problem with recording as an actual musician, meaning real time playing of the select instruments.

What Renoise need is a way to record only some instruments while leaving the others idle. Or to put it in a different perspective, A "Recording" flag per track and/or Instrument so only those are recorded.
I find it mindboggling that this is not there, or maybe I'm just a senile old fart who doesn't know how to do it. LOL

Example:

Instrument 1 is a piano VST
Instrument 2 is strings VST
Instrument 3 is a Flute VST
Instrument 4 maybe a Choir VST

Recording nr 1 I play only strings and choir, starting with the strings, choirs fading in and out using a MIDI fader to control volume of the track they are routed to.

Problem is, Renoise is recording all 4 instruments on their designated tracks and even though they don't make sound (Volume to zero) - Program still plays the notes on each one of the VST's while "Edit" is on and this also means CPU load is same as if all of them were audible. The MUTE button does nothing to change this. It SHOULD prevent any MIDI information, be it Keystrokes, Pitchwheel, modulation or whatnot, from even happening during the recording.

 

So when I'm done with the strings and choir, I have to actually backtrack and mark every single note in the tracker for the piano and the flute and delete them.
Retardedly timeconsuming and negates the whole idea of using a MIDI controller I think. 

 

Recording 2; Now I want to play the Piano and the Flute. Modulation and Pitchwheel is used on the Flute from time to time and lo and behold... ALL VST.s on that same MIDI channel are modulated and pitched, even when they shouldn't be because I have no way to turn off recording on those instruments/tracks individually... 

What am I missing here? Is there a way to turn off that so it only records the selected instruments and don't mess with everything else as well just because I have to use MIDI routing for playing multiple VST's at same time?
It doesn't make sense that it records all instruments no matter what.

Aside from this and a few minor nuisances, Renoise is the tracker that I like best. There aren't all that many to choose from to begin with but I don't like the other DAW's that has Studio One look.
I'm an old school OctaMED Soundstudio (Amiga era) user and ReNoise is the closest I could find to that one. =)

Also noticed that the Instrument Editor is detachable. But wouldn't it be nice to detach the Mixer? - I find myself swaping between tracker and mixer a lot. having the mixer on the other monitor would be awesome. :)

 

M.C in Finland



#25 Fsus4

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Posted 09 November 2016 - 22:30

Na, it's not "terminated", but we're currently indeed busy with something else which has nothing directly to do with Renoise, but may benefit it on a long term. For this year we've only a little Renoise bug fix release planed and a few updates to the contents/libraries.

 

Either way, use it for what it is and not for what it maybe could be.

 

Nice to hear some words from you taktik, much appreciated!!







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: update, VST keyzone, multitimbral