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#101 Airmann

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 23:37

They don't listen at all before release, they implement whatever they like, it is their software, they then listen to bug reports and fix some of them.

I don't know of any developers in the audio world that listen in any other way than this ?

Possibly the only ones are the Reaper developers, but they only listen in a slightly different way, they ignore all feature requests, implement whatever they want, then listen when people say "That doesn't work, do it like this instead" then they change it.

 

Sorry, but this is bullshit. Serious projects have a clear goal where they want and need to go to. Projects need discipline and limitations. What you describe is private hacking, not engineering. I know a lot of software engineers and they have to follow plans, goals, specifications. They have to implement features that a customer wants and pays for. That's because they also work for money and not just for the pure fun.

 

Renoise is and also should be more than a hobby project. It SHOULD because we all have paid for it and got updates granted. But it seems it has mutated into some kind of anarcho thing.

 

Reaper devs developed a classical Studio DAW for recording, editing, mixing and mastering. It's a pretty different DAW, but IMO they stick to a certain game plan. My impression is that Renoise has gone slightly mad since 3.0. Today I installed Reaper 5.30. It's really amazing what the devs did in a month. Probably more than Renoise devs did in a whole year.


Edited by Airmann, 21 December 2016 - 00:06.

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#102 Airmann

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 23:45

Precisely illustrates why its probably better not to promise any features.

 

Yeah, if you're unable to stick to a plan it's probably not clever to do that. Otherwise, if you're sure about upcoming features why not announce it ?



#103 Airmann

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 23:55

LOL. This is funny - I guess it has something to do with having a software that serves many different purposes and people use it in a gazillion different ways? That certainly rings a bell. You try to figure things out in advance, but there's always something you're missing out on. 

 

This is why "dogfooding" is important: by using your own software instead of just developing it, you have that perspective too. You become aware of the small workflaws that lead to frustration, down the line. I think that's what happened with Renoise 3.0 - it introduced so many new features that some felt... a bit unfinished.


 

Anyway...anyone reading this whole thread (which is now on page 4, so less and less chance of that actually happening) should know that taktik clearly stated that development hasn't stopped - but for now, focus is only on fixing bugs and making sure it actually works across the various OSes. This, I guess, is information that bears repeating. 

 

And also, I would like to join the chorus of people pointing out that it makes little sense to wait for a software to implement feature XYZ, no matter if that feature got promised or not. Use it as it is, switch to something else, or learn to combine things. In other words, "live in the present". 

 

And sometimes it helps that you leave your box and review the whole thing from the outside. And sometimes developers must be stopped from falling in love with adding too much (unimportant) features. Renoise would've been much greater if they had evolved the bread and butter stuff. Ok that may be not the most exciting thing in the world, but necessary.

 

Instead they created a feature freakshow in 3.0 and introduced Redux. IMO they left Renoise 20% unfinished and startet something new. That's my biggest problem with Renoise. A good example is multi monitor support: undocking is just supported for the instrument editor. Why e.g. not the mixer ? I just don't understand it. And it's the same with many other things.


Edited by Airmann, 21 December 2016 - 00:03.

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#104 Airmann

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 00:24

So.. Do any of you die-hard renoise fans/users had/have great experiences with other daws?
Your opinions on Reason, Reaper, Tracktion, Bitwig etc?
the cons and pros? what felt the most like Renoise?

 

I had Bitwig on my list for 1-2 years now. In the beginning it simply was not mature enough and a lot of features like track grouping were missing. But that has changed.

IMO it's a DAW which shares many features with Renoise (meta modulation, fx concept, linux support), but also introduces some new which are missing in Renoise (wav clips/tracks)
If you don't like piano rolls, forget it. But Bitwig can do similar things like a tracker via micro expressions. So if you need a quick and easy kind of pitch slide fx for samples it's possible in bitwig.

 

I bought Bitwig today over KVR (used license), I can recommend it. It's perfect for sound design and electronic music production. But it's also similar to ableton.

 

Reaper is a totally different DAW. It's perfect for multitrack recording via microphones. And it's biggest strength is non-destructive audio editing. perfect xfades, ripple editing. Rendering/conversion/CD creation/video post production, Mixing / Mastering. I used it a lot for that. It's my go to tool for wav editing. But it sucks more in modulation and dsp chain creativity. But a cool feature is, that you can add fx chains to a single item and then render in place. That's great for sound design. And actually it's good in combination with Renoise, and you can use Rewire (can be tricky, though). And it's really really cheap.


Edited by Airmann, 21 December 2016 - 00:54.

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#105 mclstr

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 01:49

Re: "I bought Bitwig today over KVR (used license), I can recommend it."

 

It compliments Renoise. They both have advantages, depending on your style of course.

I often have them running off of each other.



#106 Bungle

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 02:29

Sorry, but this is bullshit. Serious projects have a clear goal where they want and need to go to. Projects need discipline and limitations. What you describe is private hacking, not engineering. I know a lot of software engineers and they have to follow plans, goals, specifications. They have to implement features that a customer wants and pays for. That's because they also work for money and not just for the pure fun.

 

Renoise is and also should be more than a hobby project. It SHOULD because we all have paid for it and got updates granted. But it seems it has mutated into some kind of anarcho thing.

 

Reaper devs developed a classical Studio DAW for recording, editing, mixing and mastering. It's a pretty different DAW, but IMO they stick to a certain game plan. My impression is that Renoise has gone slightly mad since 3.0. Today I installed Reaper 5.30. It's really amazing what the devs did in a month. Probably more than Renoise devs did in a whole year.

 

 

How exactly are you comparing software that is put on sale as "This does this" vs "I am paying an employee (Programmer) to make this"

Are you just being obtuse for the sake of it, or do you lack any sense of comprehension of the difference in product vs service ?


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#107 Airmann

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 23:36

How exactly are you comparing software that is put on sale as "This does this" vs "I am paying an employee (Programmer) to make this"

Are you just being obtuse for the sake of it, or do you lack any sense of comprehension of the difference in product vs service ?

 

Well, you talked about the whole music industry. And I doubt that developers in that industry can afford to do whatever they want. Even if they run their own company and create products they better listen to their customers. That's the difference between anarcho hobby style and a professional software company.


Edited by Airmann, 21 December 2016 - 23:38.

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#108 antic

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 11:45

So, to bring the discussion back on topic - Live or Bitwig?

 

I can upgrade from Live "Lite" (which I got with my Arturia Minilab) to "Standard" version for EUR 240, while Bitwig would cost EUR 300, but the latter seems to come with more stuff (instruments, effects, samples) as default - so the price difference isn't really that big and important. But which has better features and more familiar work-flow for someone who only worked with trackers? I understand Live is much longer on the market, which makes it thoroughly tested and stable, but then Bitwig doesn't really seem to be missing any features and on top of that has a lot of small things (like side-by-side clip & arranger views, in-track mix of MIDI and audio clips, per-note setting of selected MIDI parameters, etc.) which are really great.

 

Oh, and I'm making psychedelic trance, so recording audio is much less important to stuff like automation, sound mangling, etc.



#109 ffx

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 11:47

Wait for end of january and decide then. Because of NAMM 2017, where usually new versions will be published. For genre, both DAWs are good. Bitwig has a more modern concept, but is not as complete as Ableton. Well, Ableton also is like 15 years older?


Edited by ffx_away, 29 December 2016 - 11:48.

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#110 antic

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 11:57

Wait for end of january and decide then. Because of NAMM 2017, where usually new versions will be published.

 

That's actually a very good advice! Thanks :)



#111 terminalbash

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 17:58

An update has been confirmed so I don't think it's dead. Did i miss something?

yes the trolls have discovered renoise forums and are spreading dissension 


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#112 Airmann

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 19:12

So, to bring the discussion back on topic - Live or Bitwig?

 

I can upgrade from Live "Lite" (which I got with my Arturia Minilab) to "Standard" version for EUR 240, while Bitwig would cost EUR 300, but the latter seems to come with more stuff (instruments, effects, samples) as default - so the price difference isn't really that big and important. But which has better features and more familiar work-flow for someone who only worked with trackers? I understand Live is much longer on the market, which makes it thoroughly tested and stable, but then Bitwig doesn't really seem to be missing any features and on top of that has a lot of small things (like side-by-side clip & arranger views, in-track mix of MIDI and audio clips, per-note setting of selected MIDI parameters, etc.) which are really great.

 

Oh, and I'm making psychedelic trance, so recording audio is much less important to stuff like automation, sound mangling, etc.

 

I'd say go for Bitwig. I bought an used license for round about 130 € at KVR Forum. Ableton has probably the better synths and DSP's though and is more mature. On the other hand Bitwig's strength is modulation and midi expressions. For me as a Renoiser Bitwig is much more familiar than Ableton and IMO has the better GUI and workflow. Bitwigs is the perfect mix of Renoise and Ableton features. Also the Bitwig roadmap is interesting (work together with other people via internet and so on).


Edited by Airmann, 29 December 2016 - 23:49.

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#113 Bungle

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 17:13

yes the trolls have discovered renoise forums and are spreading dissension 

 

What a ridiculous post !

Are you suggesting that nobody should have a differing opinion to you ?

Maybe you should think before posting such utterly stupid comments.


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#114 mclstr

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 17:37

What a ridiculous post !

Are you suggesting that nobody should have a differing opinion to you ?

Maybe you should think before posting such utterly stupid comments.

 

There are differences of opinions and there are trolls.

The way this thread started and many of the comments are borderline.

 

Anyone on this forums knows that the developers are making progress.

I personally would rather have them make progress than spend their time reading and responding to posts on threads like this.



#115 Sqeetz

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 02:05

I personally would rather have them make progress than spend their time reading and responding to posts on threads like this.

 

Who are you to say how anyone has to spend his time? 



#116 Bungle

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Posted 01 January 2017 - 09:46

There are differences of opinions and there are trolls.

The way this thread started and many of the comments are borderline.

 

Anyone on this forums knows that the developers are making progress.

I personally would rather have them make progress than spend their time reading and responding to posts on threads like this.

 

What the hell are you talking about ?

Anybody who reads the forum knows the developers are NOT making progress, they are quite honest and open about the fact they are working on something else.

What forum are you reading ?


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#117 TheBellows

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 16:43

c595586b491836bb2135fb603c2f4e5997ce0e2f


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#118 mystical&magical

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 05:37

So, to bring the discussion back on topic - Live or Bitwig?

 

I can upgrade from Live "Lite" (which I got with my Arturia Minilab) to "Standard" version for EUR 240, while Bitwig would cost EUR 300, but the latter seems to come with more stuff (instruments, effects, samples) as default - so the price difference isn't really that big and important. But which has better features and more familiar work-flow for someone who only worked with trackers? I understand Live is much longer on the market, which makes it thoroughly tested and stable, but then Bitwig doesn't really seem to be missing any features and on top of that has a lot of small things (like side-by-side clip & arranger views, in-track mix of MIDI and audio clips, per-note setting of selected MIDI parameters, etc.) which are really great.

 

Oh, and I'm making psychedelic trance, so recording audio is much less important to stuff like automation, sound mangling, etc.

I'd go for Ableton + Max for Live perfect for creating Psytrance. Check out https://www.youtube....PsiloCybianLive best Tutorials by PsiloCybian ..this guy demonstrates the depths of it. Bitwig is awesome too but I think with Ableton +Max for Live together you get way more instruments,effects and really good, useful tools. And Abletons Operator is a universal beast imo. GOod for FM, Acid sounds, Kicks, Bass and all that nice subractive jazz.


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#119 afta8

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 15:52

Perhaps this is a bit off topic but this thread doesn't seem to die, I also had some reflections on why these expectation comes up a lot with creative software, I don't think Renoise is the only software that has these issues, spend some time on KVR forums and you get the impression there are a significant number of users looking for that next update with x new features, and then getting a bit hysterical when too much time passes between updates or lack of communication from developers.

 

Interesting how you don't get these strong expectations with hardware devices, I mean for the same price as Reniose you can get a pocket operator and thats all you get, no updates.. ever.. and a whole lot less in terms of features. However I seem to have a lot more fun with these devices with their limited sets of options..

 

Like many people, I have more than enough software to make music with, Ableton, Bitwig, NI Komplete + loads of other plugins, but I haven't written a complete track in around two years.. Granted I do get kicks from making lua tools and playing around with new software but this is a distraction taking me on a coding and sound design path and neglecting song writing skills.

 

The issue therefore is not what DAW you use but what process and workflow you follow. In this regard the limitations of your tools of choice can be beneficial and should be embraced.

 

As an example for xmas I got an OP-1 and at first glance it is nothing special, a bunch of very digital sounding synths and only 4 tracks of audio, it's almost the antithesis of the modern audio software world with it's analogue fetishisation, track and plugin counts etc. After coming from all of my software options I found it incredibly infuriating to work with this thing, it is so damn limited.

 

But then after a while you learn to start working with it's limitations, you create happy accidents and follow paths you hadn't previously considered, making music becomes fun again, productivity increases and I started to appreciate again the power limitations can have in fostering creativity. It has made me see Renoise in a new light and actually changed the way I work with it, the whole tracker paradigm takes you down interesting and new paths that mainstream DAWS will never do, that's what makes it special.

 

Anyway I could ramble on but probably best to leave that for the pub! In response to the OP however, if you really must, pick any of the mainstream DAW's, Logic, Cubase, BItwig, Live, Reaper etc.. They all do pretty much the same thing and NONE of them will help you make better music than you can do already with Renoise.

 

What really matters is your creative process, that is where focus should be applied but we don't really get threads like "Help me find a new creative process" around here. Maybe that is just the nature of forums, people who are happy with Renoise are just getting on with it and forums are inherently always going to give a skewed perspective.

 

If you really do feel something is missing in your music making and you have some money burning a hole in your pockets then maybe pick up a cheap piece of hardware, pocket operators, korg volca's, novation circuit all seem to be fun little devices that may help you rediscover the FUN and create new starting points for future tracks.


Edited by afta8, 06 January 2017 - 15:56.

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#120 ffx

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 16:01

I kind of disagree here.

 

Let's take Bitwig as an example:  starting here, Bitwig almost already can do everything what Renoise can do. When it comes now to the basics, you will soon notice, that the song sounds more professional with less effort. This is, because e.g. the high quality of the Bitwig EQ, also containing LP/HP. Or the awesome dynamics module. Also the midi recording is just as precise as you would expect it, and the quantization mostly works out-of-the-box. No track commands will be destroyed etc. And you so easily draw any automation curve, with ultra high precision and nice and simple spline curves... So all these little annoyances that we have in Renoise do not exist in Bitwig. So you could say that Renoise actually is not finished when it comes to the basics. I wont add side chaining here, but have a look how bitwig handles it: It's mind-blowing awesome.

 

Bitwig also does not stop here. It can chain really complex structures as a insert overall plugin, thanks to parallel containers.

 

Also the Bitwig team is constantly releasing bugfixes and little improvements. Every 2 months! Renoise feels just dead here. Live with the bugs and limitations. This is really sad, since Renoise could be the best of best of best.


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#121 ffx

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 16:12

Also Ableton's piano roll is just a horror show, and the mixer, too. Cubase is a dinosaur regarding workflow. So these DAWs cannot compete with a more modern approach like Renoise or Bitwig. Logic is similar to Cubase, but also turned into an Apple-One-Company-Freakshow, so it's not really interesting anymore, since Apple shits on Proessional Users tm.

 

SO NOW EVERYTHING IS SAID / WRITTEN.


Edited by ffx_away, 06 January 2017 - 16:12.

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#122 afta8

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 16:15

I kind of disagree here.

 

You miss my point, I have Bitwig already and I see it as something different to Renoise. Out of the box I can do things in Renoise that are much more difficult to achieve in Bitwig and vice versa. However for the money I spend on Bitwig (£300ish) I could buy Renoise + plugins which give me better EQ and compression than stock Bitwig plugins.

 

The only difference is that some things (like automation, spline curves, vocal comping) will take longer to do in Renoise but conversely taking that longer approach 'may' take you down more interesting and creative paths and lead to outcomes you hadn't anticipated.

 

Anyway I have Bitwig, Live and Renoise, they are all awesome but I don't think any of them help me make better music. My creative process makes the difference and I tend to have more success with that in Renoise. But I am not advocating one over the other, do what makes you happy, I just think that a new DAW is not the thing that will make the difference to how good your tracks are and how satisfied you are with them.


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#123 ffx

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 16:24

Oh yes, it seems I missed the point. I only want to say that RENOISE IS NOT COMPLETE WHEN IT COMES TO THE BASICS.   And there is no excuse not to fix  this (expect personal decisions of the devs of course).


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#124 Mark2

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 16:34

I tend to have more success with that in Renoise

 

 

This is so true for me too. I'm even not doing music since months or a year and having sorrow that there is a problem with the software I would use if I begin making music again.

 

Renoise has the right balance of straight note input (docked, reasonably sized etc) and a straight to use sampler, and more. It simply has worked when I wanted to create something that I found important.


Edited by Mark2, 06 January 2017 - 16:36.

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#125 ffx

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Posted 06 January 2017 - 16:37

Ok people. Then go on to whitewash your Renoise... 


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