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DEVs on what you are currently working on? Redux update?


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#26 deathdisco

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 05:41

Re: the people talking about software development as developers - yes, I get you. I have run a software development consultancy company for 6 years now, and have been in the software industry my entire life, and I feel I understand the processes of writing software pretty well. However, I can also offer some insight into marketing and selling software products. And often, developers get very caught up in the 'matrix' haha, basically, they see the process as the product and don't understand that customers don't see things that way, they see your product as more of a service. The audio industry is already full of vendor lockin, obscene orwellian DRM, DAWs which are slowly turning into nothing but sample-pack delivery systems, proprietary file formats, crazy levels of asset dependency hell, and the list goes on, adding vapourware to the list of concerns is sad. The team have produced some amazing software, I really do hope they continue to do so and don't decide to neglect it in favour of a unicorn - that's the way many software companies die.

 

As the software ecosystem (your operating system, plugins, new technologies and devices) changes, all software needs to keep up. It's never written in a vacuum. Take bitwig for example, they seem to be pushing out updates constantly and there's only two developers I believe? And yet it still crashed when Sierra came out, but they fixed the bugs and pushed an update.

 

When your only product lines stagnate and haven't even had a small maintenance release in over a year, it's safe to call your software vapourware. I have resisted the urge to tell people about renoise in the past even though I use it a lot and feel it is WELL worth the asking price, purely because I don't have any confidence it will stand up to whatever is around the corner. Any OS update could break it and we'd be out of luck - and saying 'don't update' is no where NEAR acceptable.

 

Refactoring and new ideas and new processes can seem like progress is being made internally, but in fact are killing output. I feel that's what's happened here.


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#27 majony78

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 18:51

All this is very sad. :(

All this is very sad



#28 radian

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 20:12

I'm wondering why paid users aren't a little upset that there's been no updates for a year to either renoise or redux?

 

Cos it worked as-is when we bought it, and still does ?


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#29 TheBellows

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 20:36

This is bs imo, Renoise has never been into marketing and has always been a niche product, but even so it has been under constant development for about 15 years and now it's a very powerful tool that can do much more than any competing product for the price. Just go to the Mutant Breaks compo and listen to all the amazing stuff people make on their spare time in Renoise, it's sick dude! 

Renoise is the most advanced tracker in existence. If you need something else then go get something else, no one is going to stop you. Just don't spread false rumours or cry about  how Renoise is a vapourware or whatever.

Maybe you know marketing deathdisco, but i don't think you know Renoise that well.


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#30 TheBellows

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 20:43

We need speculation thread though, if no one makes one i guess i'll have to. We need to speculate what the heck they're up to and how many cats that are involved in the process.


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#31 ghostwerk

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 21:11

"In terms of Ricochet 2, we always have this problem that when we talk about things too far in advance, we end up changing our minds as we're going through and developing stuff, so as we're thinking through the giant story arc which is Ricochet 2, you might get to a point where you're saying something is surprising us in a positive way and something is surprising us in a negative way, and, you know, we'd like to be super-transparent about the future of Ricochet 2. The problem is, we think that the twists and turns that we're going through would probably drive people more crazy than just being silent about it, until we can be very crisp about what's happening next." - Gabe Newell



#32 Fsus4

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Posted 14 December 2016 - 21:42

Re: the people talking about software development as developers - yes, I get you. I have run a software development consultancy company for 6 years now, and have been in the software industry my entire life, and I feel I understand the processes of writing software pretty well. However, I can also offer some insight into marketing and selling software products. And often, developers get very caught up in the 'matrix' haha, basically, they see the process as the product and don't understand that customers don't see things that way, they see your product as more of a service. The audio industry is already full of vendor lockin, obscene orwellian DRM, DAWs which are slowly turning into nothing but sample-pack delivery systems, proprietary file formats, crazy levels of asset dependency hell, and the list goes on, adding vapourware to the list of concerns is sad. The team have produced some amazing software, I really do hope they continue to do so and don't decide to neglect it in favour of a unicorn - that's the way many software companies die.

 

As the software ecosystem (your operating system, plugins, new technologies and devices) changes, all software needs to keep up. It's never written in a vacuum. Take bitwig for example, they seem to be pushing out updates constantly and there's only two developers I believe? And yet it still crashed when Sierra came out, but they fixed the bugs and pushed an update.

 

When your only product lines stagnate and haven't even had a small maintenance release in over a year, it's safe to call your software vapourware. I have resisted the urge to tell people about renoise in the past even though I use it a lot and feel it is WELL worth the asking price, purely because I don't have any confidence it will stand up to whatever is around the corner. Any OS update could break it and we'd be out of luck - and saying 'don't update' is no where NEAR acceptable.

 

Refactoring and new ideas and new processes can seem like progress is being made internally, but in fact are killing output. I feel that's what's happened here.

 

Your reasoning would be correct if Renoise developers actually were working full time as Renoise developers. But quite the opposite seems to be the case: Renoise/Redux is just a spare time hobby project for all we know. Most likely it's even just one of many different hobby projects (remember that the devs are also artists and music producers). And time is a very limited resource in today's world.

 

But it's a commercial product, people say? Aren't customers entitled to demand new features? No, there is no such entitlement. Never has been. The product is sold "as is", and they ask a very low price for a user license, probably enough to cover the costs for the website, maybe some hardware devices for testing purposes, and occasional rent of a meeting room in some Berlin business park. But growing a company and making lots of $$$ has probably never been the aspirations of the Renoise team. It's a niche product with an unknown/missing roadmap and maintained by one or two guys who feel they work best when people don't gaze at them and shout out demands for XYZ. You the user buy a license on the merits of what it does for you here and now, not what you wish and daydream it would do for you in the future.

 

Personally I think it's very fresh and exciting news that they're open minded and willing to explore the potential of new projects. I certainly don't blame them for not working exclusively on Renoise development (managing some massive 15+ years of code could probably be quite a headache sometimes, especially if you're short of time in your daily life and have too many tasks on the crowded todo-list). People should do whatever they enjoy doing, that includes the devs too.

 

But, as I've stated before, there is a solution to the Renoise development situation, something that could radically change the game in the future (unless they got a huge amount of cash and decided to work full time on the project, getting even more coders involved): if taktik & co actually adopted a new approach to their license model, and made it possible for users to license the entire Renoise code (or essential parts of it, the core being compiled & encrypted) just as game developers today use i.e. the Unreal Engine code to build new games, simulations, whatever. They could then publish and maintain the official Renoise project, while essentially saying: "If you want feature X, code it!".


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#33 afta8

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 01:02

Make Renoise great again!
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#34 magickz

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 09:46

I always made my decisions to buy a software tool on the basis of the status quo and on the basis of my tasks, and not on the basis of how it might be in the future after some upgrades - simply because I want to use it immediately. If it does not meet my requirements before an update, I would not purchase it before it is released. In the best case you get frequent updates that enhance the program's functionality, in the worst case you have to pay $$$ every year for an update that you do not always need... Before you mentioned it, I never missed an update for Renoise, because it just works as promised. :-)

 

Regarding Renoise, I have no regrets. It's worth every penny. And in my opinion the price is really fair. On my PC it runs very stable, it is reliable and seems to do exactly what is written in the documentation. It is a unique tool, and there is no alternative tracker around that I would want to try. Sooner or later you will reach the limitations of a tool and you'll need something "supplementary" - no matter how much you invest in the beginning your requirements will change over the time, that's my belief.  In my case, I combine Renoise with Reaper (which I already owned before I bought Renoise), and I believe both tools together offer far more flexibility than a single solution for more than the double price of both. They collaborate very well. Finally, you have to consider, that you as a user always also pay the marketing costs, if you buy from "bigger" companies that put a lot of effort into their marketing. 

 

In my opinion it is even more important for me than a frequent update, that there's a friendly and supportive user community. Even better, if the developers participate from time to time in the discussion. I admit I am not very active here in this forum, maybe because the documentation is so good that it almost leaves no questions unanswered and my spare time is so limited, but generally I like it here.

 

Andrey, I think it is good to compare and to try out demos, before you spend your money. But don't waste too much time for it.  I tried many software, the result was spending years on learning a lot about technology and not so much about music... ;-) Sooner or later you will come to the same conclusion, that Renoise is unique among all the music related software; there's no real alternative, if you really like the tracker style.


Edited by magickz, 15 December 2016 - 09:59.


#35 antic

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 13:22

Whenever I find myself thinking "Oh! I'd love Renoise to be able to have / do [...]" I reflect on how much of its capabilities I'm actually using - I'd say that 50% is very generous. I still learn new things about routing, automation, effects, modulations, instruments, etc. and have not even touched scripting. It's like people only feel vindicated if there's constant stream of features being added, regardless if they will use them or not. Sure, like anyone I have a list of things that I'm missing or that are cumbersome to achieve and easier workaround should exist, but that's the case for ANY software. But we need to understand that some things are so specific that the ratio of usability (for whole user base) vs. the effort required is too low to bother, some are probably coming and others are completely out of the scope of devs "idea" of what Renoise should be.

 

I personally paid the asking price for what's available in the package right the moment I purchased it. Anything on top of that will be a bonus.


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#36 OopsIFly

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Posted 15 December 2016 - 15:07

I must say the "suggest improvements in the forums frenzy" had gotten hold of me in the beginning, too. Is this symptomtic only for the renoise community, or is this aggressive like this for every software project around? It is so pointless, such a small project, and there's a thread with feature improvement suggestions with a looooong list, longer than the dev are able to fulfil within reasonable time.

 

I found remedy by just trying to use the software. And try to find ways around missing or broken features. It is actually fun to try to find ways to do something that isn't obvious, and I know little other software that is so granting in the regard of opening possibilities for such inventions. It is more fun to do it, and actually make music, than wasting time spamming the forums for having feature xyz that just won't come in time. The open way such ideas are shared in these forums is a nice thing as well.

 

Of course I see everyone has a different workflow and different expectations on their tools. It currently works well for me, but I guess it sometimes couldn't for someone with real pro expectations trying to drive the state of the art methods. Then again such people would possibly try to drive renoise with vst effects where a simple eq or compressor alone would cost twice the price of a renoise license. I can understand this trying to use rns in vain like this must be very frustrating.

 

Just like in the old days, fast tracker II just wasn't cakewalk and could never have been. Now for renoise the distance has become a lot closer, but still one shouldn't expect this project to become a boss in the biz.



#37 Bungle

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 07:44

It is so pointless, such a small project, and there's a thread with feature improvement suggestions with a looooong list, longer than the dev are able to fulfil within reasonable time.

 

Of course this is complete and utter nonsense

Reaper - Same amount of developers, compare the last 5 years side by side

Studio One - Same amount of developers, Compare the last 5 years side by side

Bitwig - Same amount of developers, compare the last 5 years side by side

 

So there is no way that feature requests could not have ALL been incorporated, the developers are fully capable and very good at what they do, they chose NOT to add all the feature requests, it is their software, they decide what they want in it, not you, not me, not any user.

You only need to look at their choice of developments, this is a fun project for them, they obviously have no interest in mass market appeal...

Heres a couple....

Redux - Minimal interest to anybody outside of Renoise users, minimal interest to Renoise users because it is built in to Renoise anyway.

Scripting - Minimal interest to most of the userbase, those that did develop using it have pretty much given up using it.

 

If everybody started to just look at Renoise for what it is, somebodies spare time hobby project, you would all be happier, stop dreaming of world wide domination, with no piano roll or arranger, and nowadays clip triggering too, that is never going to happen, every other app on the planet for Renoise money or less already has those features, and if you think that tracking will EVER have mass market appeal, you are mad.

(Lets be perfectly clear here, the developers know as well as anybody else that with those additions Renoise will have mass market appeal and they have zero interest in that)

Use it or don't use it, but you have already been told by the developer that nothing is coming, they are working on something else.


Edited by Bungle, 16 December 2016 - 07:47.

Meh

#38 SPDK

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 09:28

I like Renoise the way it is. If it keeps working on future operating systems and I can load my vst's, it's ok with me.


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#39 TheBellows

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Posted 16 December 2016 - 17:30

Of course this is complete and utter nonsense

Reaper - Same amount of developers, compare the last 5 years side by side

Studio One - Same amount of developers, Compare the last 5 years side by side

Bitwig - Same amount of developers, compare the last 5 years side by side

 

So there is no way that feature requests could not have ALL been incorporated, the developers are fully capable and very good at what they do, they chose NOT to add all the feature requests, it is their software, they decide what they want in it, not you, not me, not any user.

You only need to look at their choice of developments, this is a fun project for them, they obviously have no interest in mass market appeal...

Heres a couple....

Redux - Minimal interest to anybody outside of Renoise users, minimal interest to Renoise users because it is built in to Renoise anyway.

Scripting - Minimal interest to most of the userbase, those that did develop using it have pretty much given up using it.

 

If everybody started to just look at Renoise for what it is, somebodies spare time hobby project, you would all be happier, stop dreaming of world wide domination, with no piano roll or arranger, and nowadays clip triggering too, that is never going to happen, every other app on the planet for Renoise money or less already has those features, and if you think that tracking will EVER have mass market appeal, you are mad.

(Lets be perfectly clear here, the developers know as well as anybody else that with those additions Renoise will have mass market appeal and they have zero interest in that)

Use it or don't use it, but you have already been told by the developer that nothing is coming, they are working on something else.

I find it interesting how you "know" so much about the development of these different types of software and how the developers makes their decisions and of course you always "know" best.

Sounds like you're best friends with all the developers, how well do you really know them and their business/development strategies?



#40 Airmann

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 01:31

I find it interesting how you "know" so much about the development of these different types of software and how the developers makes their decisions and of course you always "know" best.

Sounds like you're best friends with all the developers, how well do you really know them and their business/development strategies?

 

Well, as far as I know Reaper has 2-3 core developers with Justin Frankel as lead. Bitwig maybe has a few more. 

The "such a small team" argument is indeed not very convincing.


Edited by Airmann, 18 December 2016 - 01:36.


#41 ffx

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 01:39

It surely is about making some money for a dog's living. Tracker isn't obviously too attractive for average joe, just like excel (excel has no alternative simply). Not everybody is a good salesman, too. Only the information politics from the dev team sucks, IMHO.

 

Well, I am quite happy since I now know, what is not happening. Post trauma phase now.



#42 Airmann

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 01:53

It surely is about making some money for a dog's living. Tracker isn't obviously too attractive for average joe, just like excel (excel has no alternative simply). Not everybody is a good salesman, too. Only the information politics from the dev team sucks, IMHO.

 

Well, I am quite happy since I now know, what is not happening. Post trauma phase now.

 

Well, it easily could've been much better. I had this vision for years: Renoise would become a "cream of the crop" modern creative DAW. But I'm not convinced anymore. It feels like something really has stopped.

 

Last days I demoed Bitwig (again). And meanwhile it's really great and mature. Lot's of features implemented which I still miss in Renoise. E.g. great GUI scaling, wav tracks, sidechaining, multimonitor support, simplicity of the workflow, great native fx and so on. Two years ago Renoise users laughed about it. Now, it definitely has passed Renoise. It also provides scripting. Probably I'll give it a chance. It's not easy, though, because I grew up with trackers.


Edited by Airmann, 18 December 2016 - 01:58.

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#43 f+d+k

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 02:50

[Bitwig] It also provides scripting. Probably I'll give it a chance. It's not easy, though, because I grew up with trackers.

 

I'm on Bitwig for almost one year now. I'll definitely recommend to give it a try. But when it comes to scripting: I see Bitwig scripting for controllers, but that's all there is. There's no scripting like Renoise's or Reaper's tools, or is there? If so, I didn't notice...



#44 Airmann

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 02:59

I'm on Bitwig for almost one year now. I'll definitely recommend to give it a try. But when it comes to scripting: I see Bitwig scripting for controllers, but that's all there is. There's no scripting like Renoise's or Reaper's tools, or is there? If so, I didn't notice...

 

Thanks for feedback, well, scripting for controllers would be most important for me ^^.



#45 brisket

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 12:58

Heh. I've spent the last year with Bitwig and failed to finish a song in it. It's too good, in a way - the nested devices and so forth, there's just too much to play with. Also very touchy.

I got a lot more done with Renoise, in spite of its sometimes infuriating (and sometimes inspiring) limitations. There's simply no comparing the two in terms of stability. 

 

I'm not using Renoise much at the moment, but I did write a whole album using it, and I'm very glad it exists. Given how awesomely stable I've found it, and the fact that you use it knowing it isn't going to have newest features (x) (y) and (z), I don't stress about updates. It's almost more like hardware in that regard. I think more developers should take that approach.



#46 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 14:12

Of course this is complete and utter nonsense

Reaper - Same amount of developers, compare the last 5 years side by side

Studio One - Same amount of developers, Compare the last 5 years side by side

Bitwig - Same amount of developers, compare the last 5 years side by side

 

So there is no way that feature requests could not have ALL been incorporated, the developers are fully capable and very good at what they do, they chose NOT to add all the feature requests, it is their software, they decide what they want in it, not you, not me, not any user.

You only need to look at their choice of developments, this is a fun project for them, they obviously have no interest in mass market appeal...

Heres a couple....

Redux - Minimal interest to anybody outside of Renoise users, minimal interest to Renoise users because it is built in to Renoise anyway.

Scripting - Minimal interest to most of the userbase, those that did develop using it have pretty much given up using it.

 

If everybody started to just look at Renoise for what it is, somebodies spare time hobby project, you would all be happier, stop dreaming of world wide domination, with no piano roll or arranger, and nowadays clip triggering too, that is never going to happen, every other app on the planet for Renoise money or less already has those features, and if you think that tracking will EVER have mass market appeal, you are mad.

(Lets be perfectly clear here, the developers know as well as anybody else that with those additions Renoise will have mass market appeal and they have zero interest in that)

Use it or don't use it, but you have already been told by the developer that nothing is coming, they are working on something else.

Noppes , the reaper development is small , that part is true  , but there is a BIG difference  'justin Frankel is a billionaire , https://en.wikipedia.../Justin_Frankel

So the small reaper development team is payed on a monthly basis ,  we don't know how much they earn and neither should we care  , but it does make a big difference 


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#47 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 14:19

I don't know much about the bitwig dev ...but they did receive some funds when they were starting out( 2008-2009) 


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#48 Airmann

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 14:45

Noppes , the reaper development is small , that part is true  , but there is a BIG difference  'justin Frankel is a billionaire , https://en.wikipedia.../Justin_Frankel

So the small reaper development team is payed on a monthly basis ,  we don't know how much they earn and neither should we care  , but it does make a big difference 

 

Come on, do you really think money makes any difference here ?  I think it's more about dedication and fundamental decisions.

 

Justin was a billionaire way before before Reaper. He earned his money by selling Winamp. He easily could've stopped all work by that time, because he doesn't need to work for money anymore. And no, he didn't stop, he just started to develop Reaper in 2005, because he's an enthusiastic programmer and had fun in developing a DAW.

 

I may be wrong but as far as I know Renoise also has one or two full time coders (taktik at least). They had over fifteen years of development, and Reaper over ten years. So where is the difference ?  If it was about money: many users already offered to pay more for more features, but Renoise devs denied it. They could've collected money via kickstarter and so on. My impression always was that Renoise devs didn't want to expand in a more professional manner. They decided to be a niche project.


Edited by Airmann, 18 December 2016 - 14:57.


#49 Fsus4

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 15:54

Come on, do you really think money makes any difference here ?  I think it's more about dedication and fundamental decisions.

 

Justin was a billionaire way before before Reaper. He earned his money by selling Winamp. He easily could've stopped all work by that time, because he doesn't need to work for money anymore. And no, he didn't stop, he just started to develop Reaper in 2005, because he's an enthusiastic programmer and had fun in developing a DAW.

 

I may be wrong but as far as I know Renoise also has one or two full time coders (taktik at least). They had over fifteen years of development, and Reaper over ten years. So where is the difference ?  If it was about money: many users already offered to pay more for more features, but Renoise devs denied it. They could've collected money via kickstarter and so on. My impression always was that Renoise devs didn't want to expand in a more professional manner. They decided to be a niche project.

 

No, Renoise doesn't have one or two full time coders! It's a spare time hobby project!

 

Why do people keep assuming that Renoise is backed by one or even two FULL TIME coders? It's quite absurd. Just stop it.



#50 Airmann

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 17:12

No, Renoise doesn't have one or two full time coders! It's a spare time hobby project!

 

Why do people keep assuming that Renoise is backed by one or even two FULL TIME coders? It's quite absurd. Just stop it.

 

Maybe, maybe not. I don't have that information. AFAIK there's nothing about it on the Renoise pages. I hear it for the first time and at least the guys take money for their product. So why should the assumption that part of the team behind Renoise makes a living of it be quite absurd ? The opposite assumption would be absurd.

 

Further, as I've already written: if money is a problem why not collect more money ? People would easily pay 100 € for Renoise. Many people already offered to pay more for more features. The usual argument of the devs is: more money doesn't help, because we just have not more time.

 

Ok, so far so good. But if there's enough money maybe one developer could work fulltime for at least 1-2 years. Yes, it's a risk, but if the result is good, more people will buy Renoise and in the future you could take more money for more features. It's the usual business.

 

And last but not least: "the not more time" argument of the devs: if there wasn't enought time how come that products like Redux are developed beside Renoise ?

 

No, for me the "no money" and "no time" arguments are both misleading and not convincing.


Edited by Airmann, 18 December 2016 - 17:16.