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DEVs on what you are currently working on? Redux update?


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#51 Fsus4

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 17:41

Maybe, maybe not. I don't have that information. AFAIK there's nothing about it on the Renoise pages. I hear it for the first time and at least the guys take money for their product. So why should the assumption that part of the team behind Renoise makes a living of it be quite absurd ? The opposite assumption would be absurd.

 

Further, as I've already written: if money is a problem why not collect more money ? People would easily pay 100 € for Renoise. Many people already offered to pay more for more features. The usual argument of the devs is: more money doesn't help, because we just have not more time.

 

Ok, so far so good. But if there's enough money maybe one developer could work fulltime for at least 1-2 years. Yes, it's a risk, but if the result is good, more people will buy Renoise and in the future you could take more money for more features. It's the usual business.

 

And last but not least: "the not more time" argument of the devs: if there wasn't enought time how come that products like Redux are developed beside Renoise ?

 

No, for me the "no money" and "no time" arguments are both misleading and not convincing.

 

Well, currently this forum has 10856 members. Rough calculation, assuming at least 1/3 of those members have purchased a license for Renoise at $75, that's about $271.400 in sales total, then spread it out over 15+ years, which is about some $18.000 a year, or $1500 a month. Subtract regular taxes, business costs, website/forums, e-shop, hardware for testing, maybe occasional rent of a meeting room, etc, then what do you conclude? I conclude that in NO WAY it's a full time project. Part time project, sure, but then we're talking maybe a few weeks net worth of working time every year. Even if you would re-calculate with 10K registered users, it's still only lunch money. 


Edited by Fsus4, 18 December 2016 - 18:14.


#52 Airmann

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 19:07

Well, currently this forum has 10856 members. Rough calculation, assuming at least 1/3 of those members have purchased a license for Renoise at $75, that's about $271.400 in sales total, then spread it out over 15+ years, which is about some $18.000 a year, or $1500 a month. Subtract regular taxes, business costs, website/forums, e-shop, hardware for testing, maybe occasional rent of a meeting room, etc, then what do you conclude? I conclude that in NO WAY it's a full time project. Part time project, sure, but then we're talking maybe a few weeks net worth of working time every year. Even if you would re-calculate with 10K registered users, it's still only lunch money. 

 

Your calculations and assumptions are not correct. For example my first Renoise license was only valid till Renoise 3.x. I had to buy a new one, and thus I had to pay for two licenses in 8 years. And regarding the forum member numbers vs. Renoise license holders: it could be much more than 1/3, also people could own licenses without ever visiting the forum.

 

Finally, how come you are so sure that this isn't a full time project ? Who told you that ? An hour ago I asked a former Renoise team member and he told me that they had been working full time (at least until 2012).


Edited by Airmann, 21 December 2016 - 23:57.


#53 Fsus4

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 20:01

Yes, the calculations were just rough estimations. Regarding the facts, I don't remember exactly who said this or that, I think it was one of the developers themselves who commented on these issues somewhere in these forums a few years ago. And then lots of users have been saying that for years, too, while I've rarely seen anybody suggest otherwise. Before 2012 it was a bit different, yes. For example, taktik was involved with Ableton for eight years and AFAIK today is a companion at SupraMotion.


Edited by Fsus4, 18 December 2016 - 20:03.


#54 Bungle

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 22:03

It seems people missed the point of me mentioning Bitwig and Reaper.
Amount of developers means nothing.
Amount of money made does, the Renoise developers have no interest in more sales or they would have gone the route of other DAWs years ago (Piano roll, linear arranger with audio tracks)

As for Justin Frankel being a billionaire, do your research
1 He was never a billionaire
2 He gave a shit load to charities
3 (important) He does not self fund Reaper, and has confirmed on multiple occasions that it is fully self sustaining, Reaper has a LOT of users haha
Meh

#55 Airmann

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Posted 18 December 2016 - 22:36

As for Justin Frankel being a billionaire, do your research
1 He was never a billionaire
3 (important) He does not self fund Reaper, and has confirmed on multiple occasions that it is fully self sustaining, Reaper has a LOT of users haha

 

@1: you're right, according to Wikipedia he sold nullsoft for 100 million dollars. But that would be enough for project funding ^^.

@3: interesting



#56 deathdisco

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 07:11

All of these apologists, I'm left shaking my head at the mental backflips people will do to support people they don't know for a totally unknown and illogical set of reasons.

 

The Renoise team still take money for selling their product. They have a duty of care to support it. Put up or shut up - if you can't support the product don't sell it. Open source it so it can at least survive and you haven't completely wasted peoples time. The minute the app stops working with a new update, all those hundreds of hours spent building and working with renoise and redux, the instruments, projects etc, become more useless and potential art/music is lost forever. It's not cool building a library you care about only to have the cornerstone you trusted on as a workhorse (in my case, redux) ripped out from you at some point.

 

It's a great product, by great developers, support it at least, or give it to the world to adopt and change the audio industry in a bigger way. The thing companies sometimes do where they just milk the product for years without support (sylenth guy did it for years and everyone railed against him for that), and then it just disappears or changes completely overnight leaving people stranded (alchemy?) is not just a 'business decision', it's a matter of respect for your customers. I'd never sell a product and then leave my customers stranded. Ever. So stop defending this company guys, you're ACTUALLY not doing anyone any favours least of all yourselves.


Edited by deathdisco, 19 December 2016 - 07:13.

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#57 toblerpone

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 09:25

Ranting here that your 70 euro daw was not a good long term time investment because it only got a bug fix update in 1 year doesn't do any favours either. if your time is so expensive, have some sanity checks before you spend it.

Just hop to another daw like the rest of the world. The new doesn't come out right? - Hop again till it does.

Bitwig almighty costs 300 euro without version number upgrade paths. Lord FL is only the most used daw in the world. Reaper is the dictionary opposite of "elegant in use".

 

The renoise team is very small, it physically can't get any smaller. Renoise competes with other daws in overall methodology, not directly (especially since bitwig).

I personally can't see renoise and the daw business in general being very lucrative, and if it doesn't pay the rent every day, you can't be working on it 8 to 5.


Edited by toblerpone, 19 December 2016 - 09:28.

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#58 afta8

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 11:29

Wow, so much salt and entitlement... 

 

The idea that Renoise is dead has been refuted

 

Whats with all the negativity? If Renoise aint doing it for you then look elsewhere to fill the voids in your life


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#59 joule

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 18:49

This is all a natural thing to happen in relationships.


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#60 Conner_Bw

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 20:23

No, Renoise doesn't have one or two full time coders! It's a spare time hobby project!

 

Why do people keep assuming that Renoise is backed by one or even two FULL TIME coders? It's quite absurd. Just stop it.

 

Renoise has an office in Berlin and at least two devs work on it full time. At one time it was probably four.

 

Renoise has a fluctuating testing & miscellaneous staff (The Renoise Team) and for *those* people it's a hobby. Sometimes "Team" and "Core" cross over. The team was at one time much more active. Now it's mostly core.

 

The nuance is that "Renoise" isn't just Renoise "the software" but whatever is done at Renoise HQ or any side projects that involves Renoise tech.

 

I was part of a wave of people who wanted "more than just a tracker" but that didn't happen. I also wanted scripting at a time when Ableton Live released Max for Live. I don't see how these ideas are mutually exclusive. Other people who pushed the project in different directions, way more than I ever could, have also come and gone. Some people pushed out other people willingly or otherwise. Some people changed their goals in life. In hindsight, it's a 17 year project with one constant: Taktik.

 

This thread gets some things right and other things very wrong.  Probably this post too. The Renoise organization prefers no information over any information because it doesn't like to stress. The problem is that a thread like this causes stress... Merry Christmas?

 

Source: https://renoise.com/who-are-we


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#61 Airmann

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 20:51

This thread gets some things right and other things very wrong.  Probably this post too. The Renoise organization prefers no information over any information because it doesn't like to stress. The problem is that a thread like this causes stress... Merry Christmas?

 

It's not the thread that causes, stress. The stress is caused by Renoise organization's attitude towards users. Ignorance and silence causes stress. Don't swap cause and effect. It's like the refugee crisis here in germany. The more the problems are ignored or played down, the more upset people get. It's a justified and normal process.


Edited by Airmann, 19 December 2016 - 21:13.

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#62 Conner_Bw

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 21:12

It's not the thread that causes, stress. The stress is caused by Renoise organization's attitude towards users. Ignorance and silence causes stress. Don't swap cause and effect.

 

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man. 

 

I was the we need more communication guy. I was also the complain aggressively rage quit every year then come back guy...

 

I took many a lump, but 'twas all in good fun.

 

I'm not sure why i'm participating in this thread... Sorry.


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#63 Airmann

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 21:26

I was the we need more communication guy.

More communication was so important. And it starts with listening.

 

I took many a lump, but 'twas all in good fun.

 

Sorry, I don't understand ... what's the meaning behind ?



#64 Fsus4

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 22:39

Renoise has an office in Berlin and at least two devs work on it full time. At one time it was probably four.

 

[..]

 

The nuance is that "Renoise" isn't just Renoise "the software" but whatever is done at Renoise HQ or any side projects that involves Renoise tech.

 

 

OK, that actually makes a lot of sense. So the total work being done at Renoise (Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung) could also include other side projects within a B2B context. The nature of such projects and/or any information about such projects would then of course not be available to the public.

 

Fair enough. Case closed.

 

A personal note to Renoise GmbH employee(s):
I'm sorry for trying to put out fire with gasoline in this thread and others. I wish you all the best with that new secret project of yours, I'm sure it's going to be awesome whatever it is. Thanks for letting us know about it, thanks for Renoise & Redux, a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!!


Edited by Fsus4, 19 December 2016 - 22:53.

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#65 Airmann

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 22:54

OK, that actually makes a lot of sense. So the total work being done at Renoise (Gesellschaft mit beschränkter Haftung) could also include other side projects within a B2B context. The nature of such projects and/or any information about such projects would then of course not be available to the public.

 

Oh even more assumptions ;-) ?


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#66 Fsus4

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Posted 19 December 2016 - 23:45

It's not the thread that causes, stress. The stress is caused by Renoise organization's attitude towards users. Ignorance and silence causes stress. Don't swap cause and effect. It's like the refugee crisis here in germany. The more the problems are ignored or played down, the more upset people get. It's a justified and normal process.

 

Yes, it's a justified and normal process. But you can also choose to express yourself and channel your frustrations in somewhat different ways. All of us want Renoise to be developed further, but such exceptional and rare software as Renoise doesn't grow on trees. We don't want to pressure the lead developer and make him feel that the more time and energy he puts in, the more negativity and bigger can of worms he gets back... Right? And as the saying goes: "You can't please 'em all." We all got our wishlists for fixes, features and "thou shalt prioritize this" concerns.

 

 

Oh even more assumptions ;-) ?

 

I'd say an educated guess. ;) A reasonable perspective, something that seems plausible and would also explain a few things. But sure, as I've stated countless times, I would also have preferred to get the actual facts from the primary sources, i.e. the developer(s). Who wouldn't? But since this is not what the primary sources themselves seem to prefer, I rest my case. I choose to channel my wishes for some lacking features in Renoise by exploring the potential of other DAWs and audio hardware/software instead. I'll get some things done in Renoise, some things done elsewhere. But I'll get the job done. 


Edited by Fsus4, 20 December 2016 - 00:05.


#67 Bungle

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 03:28

Anybody who thinks there is no problems in Renoise land, and that the only problem is threads like this, well they are simply a little mad surely, the fact that these threads exist, would suggest entirely that their is problems in Renoise land, at least with it's userbases perception of Renoise itself.

 

Simple fix 1, developers be more transparent.

Simple fix 2, developers release faster.

Simple fix 3, open source Renoise.

 

1 Won't happen, in recent days the developers have payed the forum with a visit to say "We have a secret" this is their typical stance, so live with it

2 Won't happen, they have never shown any interest in faster releases, that is if we assume they are capable.

3 Won't happen, there are closed source 3rd party parts of Renoise, so forget it (Or do you want features removed before it is open sourced)

 

Take those in to account and let the cold air of "I don't give a f**k anymore" wash over you, Renoise is just a piece of software, and i suspect it never beat your mother up, and neither did the devs.


Edited by Bungle, 20 December 2016 - 03:31.

Meh

#68 deathdisco

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 06:20

Still amazed at the amount of apologists, and anger at those who bought the software expecting it to be mildly supported - hey even a simple blog post update in a whole year with a mild update about what's going on, would put a lot of peoples minds at ease. Not everyone checks the forum, I don't come on here often.

 

Also the price has very little to do with expectations. If that's the case, they should be charging more as has been stated many times over and over. Most people would pay it. The price is not NOTHING, on iOS it would buy you a complete DAW, but I do understand price relativism, so if that's the case charge more. Or bring out a major version update and expect everyone to upgrade more often. But in order to do that you'd have to... you know... like... actually work on the project.


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#69 Bungle

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Posted 20 December 2016 - 17:51

For the record, i am not apologising for anybody, i think the speed of Renoise development and the stagnant nature of its development in a lot of areas is absolutely horrible, my own personal belief (Notice the word personal, no facts, no truth, just my opinion) is that the developers lost all interest in Renoise many years ago, and anything that was available to be leveraged out of its development over the years would be (Redux as an example)

 

The reason i say to calm down and not give a f**k is because there really is no point, nothing changes round here, the developers will continue to ignore the forum, then they will pop in now and then and act all high and mighty or butt hurt, then they may release something, and then the cycle will begin again.

They are not terrible communicators, they simply don't care (Again in my opinion) so why should any of us ;)

 

Renoise is what it is, use it, be happy, or move on, those are your options.


Meh

#70 TheBellows

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 14:27

All of these apologists, I'm left shaking my head at the mental backflips people will do to support people they don't know for a totally unknown and illogical set of reasons.

 

The Renoise team still take money for selling their product. They have a duty of care to support it. Put up or shut up - if you can't support the product don't sell it. Open source it so it can at least survive and you haven't completely wasted peoples time. The minute the app stops working with a new update, all those hundreds of hours spent building and working with renoise and redux, the instruments, projects etc, become more useless and potential art/music is lost forever. It's not cool building a library you care about only to have the cornerstone you trusted on as a workhorse (in my case, redux) ripped out from you at some point.

 

It's a great product, by great developers, support it at least, or give it to the world to adopt and change the audio industry in a bigger way. The thing companies sometimes do where they just milk the product for years without support (sylenth guy did it for years and everyone railed against him for that), and then it just disappears or changes completely overnight leaving people stranded (alchemy?) is not just a 'business decision', it's a matter of respect for your customers. I'd never sell a product and then leave my customers stranded. Ever. So stop defending this company guys, you're ACTUALLY not doing anyone any favours least of all yourselves.

They still take money for their product, because it's well worth the money and if you don't want to buy it you can use the demo or buy some other DAW. I can't see why this should be a problem? It's not like a tax you have been forced to pay or anything like that. You can read about all the release dates for the different versions and bug fix updates, there shouldn't be any assumptions that the software is being updated once a month. What you see is what you get.

I think last couple of updates has had a lot of useful stuff for me. I wouldn't mind if they updated the software more often, but i'm glad they don't just make a lot of half arsed updates that doesn't work.

 

Just because the Renoise team does not involve themselves in the vast amounts of post an threads like this, doesn't mean they don't care. Why would they bother to answer the same questions over and over again?

If you have a customer that calls you every day to ask what the weather is today, even though you work with computers, then you would start ignoring this customer. The same is with threads and post like these here, why would they even bother to give an answer to this when they have already answered it in thousands of different ways earlier only to be asked the same god damn questions again a few days later? Thank god they don't, because that would probably steal a lot of energy that could go towards developing a good product.

Developers do not ignore the forum at all, that's just nonsense.  You guys seem to expect that they're almighty gods from the heavens with super abilities. They aren't, they're only human.

 

You can't buy a cheap featureless car and expect that it's fully upgraded with rear view cameras, parking sensors, air condition and GPS in the next free upgrade.  

 

What's the point in expressing all this negativity towards something that has given us so much and that they have never been greedy about it? All this negativity does not work as fuel towards the project, i would rather belive it has an opposite effect. For how long can someone cope with all this negativity? Why would they bother doing an effort when all you immature kids just complaint anyway?

 

Please stop complaining and take it for what it is and not for what you want it to be. It's meaningless use of energy.

 

In comparison, take a look at for instance software like SynthEdit, it costs about the same as Renoise, is completely outdated and terrible piece of software that features so little for the money's worth in comparison.

There are a vast amount of software around that essentially rip you off. Renoise is definately not one of those, it's actually the single best purchase i have ever done. How can i possibly complain about this?

Since i last bought a license for Renoise i have gotten lots of new stuff that i didn't even expect or hope for when i bought it. Now i got a convolver, i got phrases, improved filters and effects, better gui, a much improved instrument structure and MACROS! God dammit, why the fuck are people complaining? I just don't get it!


Edited by TheBellows, 21 December 2016 - 16:38.

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#71 Djeroek

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 16:38

first world problems.

 

Spoiler


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#72 TheBellows

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 16:46

first world problems.

 

Haha, sorry for my rant, i'm done now. It's just that i'm allergic to unreasonable arguments, but fortunately i got some anti histamines. :P



#73 Mister Sombrero

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 17:16

I hope the renoise development continues far into the future.

I use renoise and sunvox together...awesome way to work with music.

 

I'm intrested to see how they implement vertical waveforms in the pattern editor...(seems like it might go that way), maybe video clips?

 

live long and prosper.


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#74 redhoot

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 19:40

happy user since 1.27, paid for the updates. Will happily pay more. Keep doing what you do Taktik.


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#75 Chris Edberg

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Posted 21 December 2016 - 19:45

Regarding the ethic & commercial discussion there's something essential that have been overlooked. Renoise pretty much is exclusive with their concept in the market today. Well, not monopolized in jurisdiction terms, but simply that's how reality just is in practical terms.

 

The concept I'm refering to is the Pattern Editor and how it handles samples, and nothing else (imo). Since other DAWs and plug-ins (samplers etc) covers the rest. Sure, there are other trackers, but not nearly as high quality. Not to say how less frequent they are updating (unless I've missed something here).

 

Point is, it's not exactly accurate to compare the spot of Renoise in the business to other DAWs which have the more traditional setup since those already have competition in the same pool. Like never before, actually. So, In that regard the Renoise team have succeeded with their business model and can relax. Why should they do otherwise?

 

They could of course raise the price tag in exchange for more features and updates. For instance, I'm one of those who would be happy to see the Renoise software include the more obvious features of a traditional DAW as a complement to their already unique concept, if not out of the box then at least as extensions (which could be bought optionally by Renoise users).

 

However, once similar suggestions have been brought up the interest from the developers are pretty mild. That would rather indicate that their price plan estimation is a success already, meaning enough buyers compared to other unrelated incomes. This may be a good sign for them, but a not so good sign for the Renoise users who wish a fast-pace development.

 

Obviously Renoise is still important enough to continue working on though, from an economic pow. If this was more of a hobby project/"heroic salvation" to the tracker scene, we would've been offered the open source code and most of the features which is frequently discussed today would've been implemented years ago by a larger developer-community.

 

So, the only "solution" to this (from the tracker community pow) is probably more competitiveness. Meaning, if there were other decent alternatives which could compete with Renoise, we would probably see more frequent updates and more blog posts around here. That's simply how the market works.

 

( Sure, there are tools development for Renoise to just add features as you like but not sure how advanced these can be. Either way, I for one would look forward to a worthy competitor. Crowdfunding and other creative solutions you know, just broaden the view guys.  :) It would be interesting to see how many months it would take to catch up Renoise if there were 10-20 people working fulltime. )

 

Sorry if I might appear a bit too speculative, just trying to think as logical as I can considering the currently known circumstances.


Edited by Chris Edberg, 21 December 2016 - 20:04.