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DEVs on what you are currently working on? Redux update?


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#126 Akiz

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 18:02

I really don't get your immense amount of stubbornness here, Taktik. Really seems that nobody can convince you for another perspective.

 

Renoise is not that bad (as you call it), and also could be more than a niche product - If you would sell it differently, by changing the marketing. But if yourself say even, that it is not worth to develop head a head with other DAWs - well, all is lost then. Also a tracker view is not so much limited in comparison to a piano roll. And this is really mostly the only drastic difference, Renoise is already a good DAW with lot of unique features. Really good features.

 

Also that you now tell me, that all my feature requests are "very individual wishes" and you simply could not fulfill all those millions of individual wishes - sorry, but it is not true that it's so many different requests or that those are so individual.

 

I really tried to give you some motivation/inspiration esp. in improving the already existing structures in Renoise. And besides this, of course suggesting obvious things like "side chaining" or obvious missing parameters in dsps. Those kind of requests exist here in the forum for about a decade now. It is repeated over and over again. But it is still only one feature request, in different variants.

 

New users come here to the forum and of course requesting lot of individual stuff or piano rolls at beginning, because they don't know for years, whats going on here and a feature request section really implies that somebody cares about all those requests. On the other hand, most long-time users request the same stuff over and over again. 

 

Ok, thanks for answering at least. Happy New Year for you and your team.

I think you are right. A lot of my friends never heard about Renoise and when they've seen it they were very surprised how powerful it is.
There is at least one genre where Renoise excels -> Grime. And this genre is very hip right now. 

Classic grime tunes were made in old Fl Studio where everybody just loaded samples and they pitched them.
Nothing more, nothing less. No automatization (Renoise is the worst DAW in this manner), just short weird samples that are pitched and effected. 
Example: 

old

or

new



I don' t know about any other daw than Renoise (and FL Studio) that are so good / effective in this... But nobody in the east London knows about the Renoise ;).


Edited by Akiz, 29 December 2016 - 21:00.

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#127 Ledger

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 20:47

If renoise has reached the point where adding new stuff is always going to be a mountain to climb I think the best way is to offer renoise as a VSTi.  I understand about Redux but it would not be the same.  This would require decent (flawless) drag and drop of MIDI and audio to work well, but offers a ton of usefulness:

 

-Multiple Xrns loadable into host, bring your disparate xrns ideas together easily!

 

-Access to Piano Roll/ notation etc  with fast D+D to and from Rns_VST

 

-Easy long sweeping automations over Rns_VST(chords), or chopping glitchy automation over Rns_VST(beats)

 

-Use hosts pitch shift; render down sections, drag back into Rns_VST for instant tracker treatment

 

-Track freeze;  Split different parts of your xrns to different tracks and freeze as required

 

-Use the output of Rns_VST as a sidechain source or destination

 

-Lua scripting included so that current tools work and new host specific helpers can be coded in the future (maybe two way MIDI mirroring could be achieved here)

 

+I`m sure lots more that I haven`t thought of

 

 

Better than rewire; no driver priority issues, all self contained and multiple Rns_VST allowed.

 

 

I know this might be a lot of work in itself but it seems that a ton of stuff can be leveraged that would take years if ever to fit into renoise.  Will it stop future feature requests, no, but damn! it`ll keep us busy for a long time!!!


Edited by Ledger, 28 December 2016 - 20:49.

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#128 thalamus

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 23:19

Ledger, I couldn't agree more!

 

Redux is a nice thing, obviously - but Phrases are of little interest to me .. my work flow is soundly rooted in Renoise. Now, if I had Renoise inside whatever DAW I chose (without the vagaries of ReWire) I'd be a happy man indeed.

 

As it stands I can ReWire Renoise into, say, Live or Reaper and have a workable system in place. But I'd rather have the total-recall in a single session of the host DAW and forget about all the rest of it.

 

The host automation possible with VSTi would also lend a lot of flexibility. I would rather forget about the automation curves in Renoise completely and have those available on the tracks inside Live or Reaper. That would make a lot more sense there.

 

In total though, and above ALL else, Renoise still presents me with the tools to edit note and effect data in a tracker format which for me is the most compelling aspect. 


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#129 Ledger

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Posted 28 December 2016 - 23:46

You`ve got further than me with rewire.  Had a lot of problems with Studio One v2 and v3 on my system but that wasn`t just rewire problems with S1, so I sold it in the end.
 
I have Bitwig now which has no rewire (now or planned) and a dusty older copy of Samplitude
 
Renoise VST would be great of course in Bitwig, and might even tempt me back into the menu maze of Samplitude which has a really useful notation editor.
 

 

From bitwig FAQ: https://www.bitwig.c...upport/faq.html

ReWire? There is no ReWire support planned, but if you want to route audio and MIDI between different applications, you might want to take a look at the JACK Audio Connection Kit, which is available for OSX, Win and Linux.


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#130 thalamus

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 00:07

I got Renoise working with Bitwig using Plogue Bidule. Unfortunately I could not get bi-directional transport working.

 

But it wasn't bad, pressing play in Bitwig started Renoise at the correct place and all the looping stuff worked flawlessly in that direction as well.

 

 

It was not, unfortunately, as good as the ReWire linkage I get between Renoise and, say, Live which is just about perfect on a moment-to-moment basis. Not great obviously when it comes to bouncing/freezing/loading and all those more off-line things.

 

Still, Bidule is a way forward if you don't mind not having Renoise be the daddy and control Bitwigs transport. That was a show-stopper for me unfortunately because of the way I like to work .. Renoise being the primary tool for jumping about, fine-tuning and making the meat of the track (Bitwig being used more as a sampler/piano-roll/mixer/comping thing). So having to flip back to Bitwig to play a section rather than just pressing space or whatever in Renoise is a big sucking deal.



#131 Ledger

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 00:30

Still, Bidule is a way forward if you don't mind not having Renoise be the daddy and control Bitwigs transport. That was a show-stopper for me unfortunately because of the way I like to work .. Renoise being the primary tool for jumping about, fine-tuning and making the meat of the track (Bitwig being used more as a sampler/piano-roll/mixer/comping thing). So having to flip back to Bitwig to play a section rather than just pressing space or whatever in Renoise is a big sucking deal.

 

Thanks for the tip, nice to know about but I know I`ll probably get as annoyed with the clunk as you :) Will be worth a demo at least though.


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#132 thalamus

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 01:03

Yeah, I just couldnt get any ReWire options to show up in Bidule if it was loading into Renoise.

 

When loaded into Bitwig the ReWire options were there. I can only assume that is because Renoise has ReWire natively and Bitwig doesnt .. but thats just a guess,

 

If it were true though, disabling ReWire in Renoise might solve the overall issue and allow Renoise to be the Master in a Bidule-based ReWire network.

 

 

 

 

I did try deleting the Rewire dll in the Renoise dir but that didnt seem to have any appreciable effect .. on anything actually. Rewire seemed to function as normal without it :)  No idea what it's for then.


Edited by thalamus, 29 December 2016 - 01:04.

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#133 Bungle

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 05:37

Niche product, please put the program more expensive, the people of renoise will pay for it.

Why ?

You getting a percentage ?

Probably the stupidest post i have read today.

Charging more money does not mean faster updates haha


Meh

#134 taktik

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 14:13

If renoise has reached the point where adding new stuff is always going to be a mountain to climb I think the best way is to offer renoise as a VSTi.  I understand about Redux but it would not be the same.  This would require decent (flawless) drag and drop of MIDI and audio to work well, but offers a ton of usefulness:

 

VSTis/AUs can not control the host's playback, so you'd need to switch back from such a Renoise plugin to the host every-time you want to start playback in the host. ReWire was invented to solve exactly this an other related problems (running two fully fledged DAWs with their own time line side by side). 

 

ReWire indeed can be a pain to setup. But once it's running, it's running. That you constantly need to switch between applications still isn't ideal.

 

That you can't control the host's playback in a plugin really is a deal-breaker. Try the FruityLoops VSTi for example to see how that "feels".

 

Redux actually is the result of the idea of "a Renoise VSTi": it is a compromise between the "limitations" of how plugins work and Renoise for the above mentioned reasons.


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#135 Ledger

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 16:10

VSTis/AUs can not control the host's playback, so you'd need to switch back from such a Renoise plugin to the host every-time you want to start playback in the host. ReWire was invented to solve exactly this an other related problems (running two fully fledged DAWs with their own time line side by side). 

 

ReWire indeed can be a pain to setup. But once it's running, it's running. That you constantly need to switch between applications still isn't ideal.

 

That you can't control the host's playback in a plugin really is a deal-breaker. Try the FruityLoops VSTi for example to see how that "feels".

 

Redux actually is the result of the idea of "a Renoise VSTi": it is a compromise between the "limitations" of how plugins work and Renoise for the above mentioned reasons.

 

Ok just had a very quick play around with FL in renoise.  To get around the play issue I mapped the renoise transport to a couple of keys on my MIDI keyboard.  If I was going to turn this into a setup I could see buying a small MIDI device with a few buttons just for this     --(as a side note to self maybe this can be incorperated into thalamus` Bitwig/bidule suggestion a few posts up).

 

As a workflow I `think` I could live with that, where obviously the host transport has to support transport MIDI mapping.  In fact I could see it having its uses, or at least not getting in the way; working on the content inside rns_VST is like having it soloed in the host, You want to hear the whole lot together or record, then use your midi controller to start and stop:  As renoise is pattern based, it is likely you`d be working in a looped area anyway so the host transport would surely not be too far away.  Obviously as with all workflows this would need testing, but at least there is an avenue there to discuss/ think about?

 

 

***brainstorming: Could there be a hackaround where you could MIDI map transport controls to a renoise VST?  so pressing play in Rns_VST sends MIDI to hosts transport?

 

 

The other main issue with the FL is the lack of `Always on top` with the main FL window.  This seems to be a choice as the main window is opened as a sub window of the initial VST window .  However with energyXT the sub windows remain on top of the host window.  I`d prefer it if the FL window did the same.

 

 

***further brainstorming:  Could a renoise VST even control rewire stuff.  (I think I know what your respone will be to this hackaround :) but could it work? at least in theory..)


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#136 Conner_Bw

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 16:14

This thread:


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#137 terminalbash

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 17:54

Hi

 

As a potential customer i want to know official answer for this question: DEVs on what you are currently working on? Redux update? Just simple Yes/No. I guess it would be honest from your side to confirm (or not) something about Redux.

 

Regards,

AM

 

 

"I would like"


Now when i know official answer i just don't care anymore because know that developers don't care about simple things for improvements. Just don't want to think about my FR that i wrote here at the beginning of the year, already forgot about all this suggestions... Saving money for other DAW now. 

 

renoise is fantastic stop crying like a baby - renoise is a solid DAW making it vapourware would kill it renoise 2.8 is still a great tool the current renoise is also fantastic and there's no rush to update it all these whinners demanding piano rolls and the such can go away and use other DAW's 



#138 danoise

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 18:33

***brainstorming: Could there be a hackaround where you could MIDI map transport controls to a renoise VST?  so pressing play in Rns_VST sends MIDI to hosts transport?

 

You mean, that a plugin directly instructs the host to change position? Because, if the host allowed MIDI mapping of transport you wouldn't need this workaround... 

 

Well, I believe it's technically possible for a VST to (request) control of the host transport, but I think only a couple of DAWs allow this. So in most cases it just won't work. 


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#139 Ledger

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 19:56

You mean, that a plugin directly instructs the host to change position? Because, if the host allowed MIDI mapping of transport you wouldn't need this workaround... 

 

Well, I believe it's technically possible for a VST to (request) control of the host transport, but I think only a couple of DAWs allow this. So in most cases it just won't work. 

 

 

Was more thinking the transport buttons, play/stop etc but if position worked then yes that would be even better.  My thought was that renoise would pass MIDI commands to the host like an external controller does.  `Simply` have the transport controls sending CC`s like a virtual MIDI surface that can be mapped using the hosts mapping ability.

 

I may be complicating things too much here but to try and clarify:

 

-rns_VST acts as both a vst and a MIDI device, or has a secondary component that acts as a MIDI device `rns_virtual_MID`, selectable along side your keyboards and controllers in host X.

 

-You map the hosts transport buttons etc. to rns_virtual_MID as you would to say  your launchpad .

 

-rns_virtual_MID shares data back and forth between rns_VST and the host. So when you hit play in rns_VST, play starts in the host. 

 

 

 

I realise we are getting out of APIs and spec here but the rewards for managing something reliable like this could be pretty big IMO.  With the request way that you mention that it is possible with the VST spec if hosts supports it but maybe this is another avenue to get round hosts that don`t, or to create something more powerful?


Edited by Ledger, 29 December 2016 - 20:02.

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#140 majony78

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 20:11

thank you Bungle.



#141 Airmann

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Posted 29 December 2016 - 23:41

ReWire indeed can be a pain to setup. But once it's running, it's running. That you constantly need to switch between applications still isn't ideal.

 

In live mode ReWire always worked for me, but I had problems with final rendering. E.g. I used Reaper for the vocal track and Renoise for the rest. Finally, I rendered/recorded the vocal track in Renoise and tried to  include it in Renoise as a huge sample. But the overall rendering/recording result was always slighty out of sync and it sounded different compared to the original Renoise-Reaper setup. I tried a lot, but it never worked out. It was an entry for a competition where only Renoise XRNS was allowed.


Edited by Airmann, 29 December 2016 - 23:47.


#142 oneunkind

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 01:37

^Is kind of a good point, man.  But, in a tracker or sampler workstation you cut the vocals up and play them when you need them and don't waste bits and bytes or whatever on the noise floor.  But, but, time marches on. But, but, if a stratocaster is still good enough!!

 

Fun conversation.


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#143 taktik

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 01:46

Spoiling the party, as usual:

 

Well, I believe it's technically possible for a VST to (request) control of the host transport, but I think only a couple of DAWs allow this. So in most cases it just won't work. 

 

No, it's unfortunately not.

 

Was more thinking the transport buttons, play/stop etc but if position worked then yes that would be even better.  My thought was that renoise would pass MIDI commands to the host like an external controller does.  `Simply` have the transport controls sending CC`s like a virtual MIDI surface that can be mapped using the hosts mapping ability.

 

It's not only about the simple start/stop commands, but also about synchronizing loops and changes in the playback position and tempo. 

But even if this would work, I don't really see why this would be easier than ReWire. ReWire takes care about exactly this + audio + MIDI routing between multiple apps.


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#144 Airmann

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 02:21

^Is kind of a good point, man.  But, in a tracker or sampler workstation you cut the vocals up and play them when you need them and don't waste bits and bytes or whatever on the noise floor.  But, but, time marches on. But, but, if a stratocaster is still good enough!!

 

Fun conversation.

 

Well, sometimes it's much more fun to use a DAW like Reaper for cutting and editing. For exactly these kind of situations ReWire support was added. And I'd expect that Renoise finally renders all tracks in sync, even the rewire track.


Edited by Airmann, 30 December 2016 - 02:22.

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#145 thalamus

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 16:05

Spoiling the party, as usual:

 

 

No, it's unfortunately not.

 

 

It's not only about the simple start/stop commands, but also about synchronizing loops and changes in the playback position and tempo. 

But even if this would work, I don't really see why this would be easier than ReWire. ReWire takes care about exactly this + audio + MIDI routing between multiple apps.

 

I recall someone in these fora talking about there being some problem with PDC and ReWire. Can't say i've noticed it myself but worth a mention, I thought.



#146 Ledger

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 18:13


It's not only about the simple start/stop commands, but also about synchronizing loops and changes in the playback position and tempo. 

 

 

 

 

I acknowledge the hurdle, but for example energyXT has two modes that are available for syncing, in the sequncer options menu [Internal / External].  When you set it to External it works as a slave to the renoise  timeline, looping seems to works fine too.  Maybe there are other ideas to get around further limitations of when renoise is in focus (`rns_virtual_MID` / MIDI Mapping a controller..)***(more brainstorming at end of post)

 

 

But even if this would work, I don't really see why this would be easier than ReWire. ReWire takes care about exactly this + audio + MIDI routing between multiple apps.

 

 

 

---The points where VST beats Rewire: Generally being able to load multiple instances + File management


 

-Multiple Xrns loadable into host, bring your disparate xrns ideas together easily!

 

-Track freeze;  Split different parts of your xrns to different tracks and freeze as required (only useful if you have multiple renoises to use so when one is frozen you work on the others)

 

-Easy long sweeping automations over Rns_VST(chords), or chopping glitchy automation over Rns_VST(beats) (multiple instances again, maybe rewire channels help here though)

 

-Use the output of Rns_VST as a sidechain source or destination (not strictly limited to but becomes more useful with more renoise instances)

 

-Save all as one song-file, in host
 

 

--------------------

 

  • The other main point of my original post in this thread was about improving MIDI and audio D+D. This on it`s own would improve renoise`s ability to share it`s content with other apps.  I`m sure it could benefit rewire users aswell (and ofc, hypothetical Rns_VST).  I`d say this is the other half of the coin and pretty important.

 

-Access to Piano Roll/ notation etc with fast D+D to and from Rns_VST (benefits to: standalone/ rewire/ Rns_VST)

-Use hosts pitch shift; render down sections, drag back into Rns_VST for instant tracker treatment (benefits to: standalone/ rewire/ Rns_VST)
 

 

 

Speculative about MIDI Mirroring , but could be a big bonus: Maybe this could even be achieved with a host like reaper already which has scripting??

-Lua scripting included  in Rns_VST so that current tools work and new host specific helpers can be coded in the future (maybe two way MIDI mirroring could be achieved here)

 

----------------------

 

 

***More brainstorming:  I know there are VSTs that can share audio/ info between instances loaded on separate tracks.  Maybe you could have a situation where you have 10 renoise`s loaded into your host all on diferent tracks all communicating with each other.  Transport in one causes all other renoise`s to play/ stop/ loop at the same time.  You use your host mainly as a platform for multiple renoise`s if you wished.

 

add in other features like `rns_virtual_MID` or even :`rns_VST_virtual_rewire`-- Here only one copy of the renoise VST has to communicate with the host (like bidule does?).  This copy can then sync all other renoises transports at the same time with the above data sharing...

 

call it re-borg!

 

all savable as a single host file.


Edited by Ledger, 30 December 2016 - 18:23.

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#147 Chris Edberg

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 21:34

No, it's unfortunately not.

 

Maybe I've misunderstood something here what you guys are talking about, but at least in Logic as host you can control its transport (like PLAY/STOP) regardless if any other AU plug-in window is focused or not.

 

Redux behaves like this too but only while the editor is collapsed (not when it's uncollapsed). So, I guess this is rather an intentional design decision rather than "technical reasons". I suppose for some users this is exactly like they want it to work though, but it's a workflow-obstacle to others if they're used to plug-ins to not override the host-transport (which more often than not is the case).

 

This is my main-issue with Redux. I'd be happy if it was possible to at least optionally make Redux "bypass" the space key in future updates, so new modifications in the phrase editor efficiently and quickly could be tried out out along with the Logic arrangement (meaning without having to un-focus the Redux-window each time for PLAY/STOP). If needed, the SOLO-button in a DAW is there for a reason too.

 

This was also what we were discussing in this topic, but you didn't follow up when I mentioned that's not a normal behavior of a plug-in.


Edited by Chris Edberg, 30 December 2016 - 21:36.


#148 Chris Edberg

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Posted 30 December 2016 - 21:48

"I would like"


 

renoise is fantastic stop crying like a baby - renoise is a solid DAW making it vapourware would kill it renoise 2.8 is still a great tool the current renoise is also fantastic and there's no rush to update it all these whinners demanding piano rolls and the such can go away and use other DAW's 

 

If you think Renoise is perfect already and you don't wish for any more features, then that's fine and I respect that. But clockwise, you have to also respect other opinions and ideas. What you have to do, instead of being insular, is to further explain why additional features would jeopardize your user-experience with Renoise. Moreover, develop your reply so people understand how already implemented features makes no need for other popular suggestions like audio-tracks etc.


Edited by Chris Edberg, 30 December 2016 - 21:51.


#149 Bungle

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Posted 31 December 2016 - 17:28

VSTis/AUs can not control the host's playback, so you'd need to switch back from such a Renoise plugin to the host every-time you want to start playback in the host. ReWire was invented to solve exactly this an other related problems (running two fully fledged DAWs with their own time line side by side). 

 

ReWire indeed can be a pain to setup. But once it's running, it's running. That you constantly need to switch between applications still isn't ideal.

 

That you can't control the host's playback in a plugin really is a deal-breaker. Try the FruityLoops VSTi for example to see how that "feels".

 

Redux actually is the result of the idea of "a Renoise VSTi": it is a compromise between the "limitations" of how plugins work and Renoise for the above mentioned reasons.

 

So wait, you actually consider a tracker within a VST shouldn't send MIDI ?

Redux couldn't do that from phrases last time i tried it (Maybe it has been updated to send MIDI now ? )

 

Spoiling the party, as usual:

 

 

No, it's unfortunately not.

 

 

It's not only about the simple start/stop commands, but also about synchronizing loops and changes in the playback position and tempo. 

But even if this would work, I don't really see why this would be easier than ReWire. ReWire takes care about exactly this + audio + MIDI routing between multiple apps.

Sorry to spoil your party, VST has had many 3rd party add ons to the standard, and as suggested (Some, not all, in fact hardly any) hosts allow plugins to control the transport, however, there are not enough of these to even consider calling this an option for development, it would be such an esoteric feature that only worked in one or two hosts, and no developer is going to add features to their host for a tracker plugin.

 

Personally i have no idea why anybody would want a full blown Renoise VST anyway, sounds like complete silliness to me, the only gain vs rewire would be project recall, and to be honest you don't need a full Renoise VST for that, just build a VST that you load in to your DAW, give it the correct string and have it trigger the correct project and open Renoise whenever you load the project (Yes it is doable, i built it in synthmaker years ago) if the project is set up for Rewire, done and done.


Meh

#150 Mark2

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Posted 03 January 2017 - 15:47

Just one little thing I want to say. I've been using a few pianoroll softwares along with Renoise and the "difference" only really manifests when it comes to commands, typical (but in theory unneccessary) limitations, some complexity. But it's not the way (vertical, note names, etc) how trackers work that makes the real difference for me, and that is why I I'm not so happy to hear "niche product". I for my part have learned in the forum that there is no way to combine tracker view and piano roll view, when Raul tried it with best efforts. But I think some people overestimate the importance of putting in notes. It's not that important. I think, it doesn't really make it niche or not niche, nor does it define the category of the software.