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Bitwig 2 ....160 annual upgrade ...wtf


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#1 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 08:10

Bitwig 2 soon to be released .

After that , an annual 160 Euro has to be paid to upgrade .

Greedy Bastards .

I was contemplating of jumping aboard , Not after this .

 

 


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#2 antic

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 08:48

Bitwig 2 soon to be released .

After that , an annual 160 Euro has to be paid to upgrade .

Greedy Bastards .

I was contemplating of jumping aboard , Not after this .

 

Well, I'd wait with complaints to see how they support the software over that 12 months period: if updates are regular and substantial, I wouldn't really have an issue with paying for that... But as I said in the other thread, I'm happy with my current setup and probably wait with buying Bitwig altogether until at least v3.0 (or whichever version opens up the modular stuff).



#3 magickz

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 09:28

annually?! :panic: sounds almost like a subscription.... good to know


Edited by magickz, 13 January 2017 - 09:29.


#4 gimmeapill

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 09:47

Quite helpful actually, to draw a line in the sand between the *pros* and me ;-)

 

...And to clear any second thought on on my next purchase:

http://www.seymourdu...rg-active-mount



#5 toblerpone

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 10:52

I applaud the possible attempt to cover the other off-topic thread, the one with the ugly name to have on the first entry in a renoise forum, you know the one.

But this is still a little off-topic to renoise, is it not?

 

magickz: it's not a subscription, not at all, because they said so.


Edited by toblerpone, 13 January 2017 - 10:53.


#6 magickz

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 12:09

smiley-zipping-mouth.png



#7 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 12:17

@magickz. The zipper is going to be very, very long!  :rolleyes:  



#8 Carbonthief

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 14:57

That's not really bad or to be unexpected for professional software with good support.  IMO it's not worth the risk of jumping aboard yet.  It remains to be seen if they're going to make it worth the investment, and if they're not just going to run out of steam.  Renoise may not get frequent updates, but by god it's proven it has staying power.  15 years of Renoise.  You can go back and open Renoise files from ages ago, and provided there are no plugins to worry about, it will open and run.  This is no small part of why I'm committing to Renoise, and also why I'm trying to work out a plugin-less workflow.  I've been burned before, I have this giant folder of projects I can't open anymore from other DAW's without actually firing up the computer I used 10 years ago.  I think Bitwig has the potential, it just needs some time to prove itself.


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#9 antic

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 15:12

That's not really bad or to be unexpected for professional software with good support.  IMO it's not worth the risk of jumping aboard yet.  It remains to be seen if they're going to make it worth the investment, and if they're not just going to run out of steam.  Renoise may not get frequent updates, but by god it's proven it has staying power.  15 years of Renoise.  You can go back and open Renoise files from ages ago, and provided there are no plugins to worry about, it will open and run.  This is no small part of why I'm committing to Renoise, and also why I'm trying to work out a plugin-less workflow.  I've been burned before, I have this giant folder of projects I can't open anymore from other DAW's without actually firing up the computer I used 10 years ago.  I think Bitwig has the potential, it just needs some time to prove itself.

 

Very well said! +1



#10 ffx

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 17:06

I don't get this now. Renoise is another story, problem was the total lack of info and communication. It's clear now that we have to expect nothing / could be anything. The devs decided so, and it's ok.

 

But now you have a problem with the Bitwig subscription model? Why that exactly?  It seems to be fair, the developers have to be paid for constant work. If there are lot of black copies, of course a constant updating model makes sense. Also Bitwig is really solid work and with some love inside. Like Renoise was some years ago.

 

I really wish that Taktik and his team also switched to such a subscription model once. Since this one also looks quite ok to me, not Adobe or Avid style one, which dongle you and want to control your life and computer. If you care for Bitwig as being a really good DAW software, it should be in your interest, too, that the company runs in a good way. 

 

Bitwig also doesn't seem to make the same mistakes (in my point of view) like we have seen here. Also Dom from Bitwig wrote, the new model would motivate them obviously more to release new features more often and sooner, instead holding it back for a fake version number jump. I find this quite reasonable.

 

Sure not everything is gold in Bitwig, but can you tell me one DAW which provides so much innovation? It is also not perfect, but very high quality. Also it seems that the base code of bitwig is quite well made and modern. It is obviously not a code monster with ancient pieces from the 80s inside.

 

Yes, I also find it a bit of pity that the modular system is not available now. At least they wrote, it will be available like a devkit to anyone who is interested, instead. When this happens, maybe they don't know now either. Also this makes lot of more sense. Imagine a total flooded support forum, if this was exposed also to the normal DAW user. And for sure they need to write a documentation for it, make it handy to non-c++-devs.

 

But there are many new really nice features: Like VST3 support + the note expression thing for those plugins. Even a simple math device is there now. It really looks like a "Renoise update" for Bitwig. And isn't that something we all here wish? (Do you think Taktik was involved here?)

 

I prefer to pay 150 Euro a year and get some nice new features and lot of constant bugfixes, something to count on - instead waiting years for nothing. I really think Bitwig can manage that pressure such a subscription model will cause.

 

What I don't understand is how it will be handled if you for example stay with v2 when v3 arrives, and then want to update to v4 later?

 

EDIT: Ok, I always seemed to underestimate the "tracker look" factor, which you guys think causes bad selling.


Edited by ffx_away, 13 January 2017 - 17:29.


#11 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 17:59

 Do people honestly believe that there will be   BIGGER anual  updates because the BITWIG team feels obliged to the ANNUAL paying customer ?  .


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#12 ffx

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 18:10

 Do people honestly believe that there will be   BIGGER anual  updates because the BITWIG team feels obliged to the ANNUAL paying customer ?  .

 

 

Hm ok, so there will be no "version 3.0" after 2.0, more like bitwig 45, bitwig 46... What is this all about¿?¿ I find that quite attractive - if there are functionality updates in between. I think people are so afraid because of avid and adobe. Since they have such a subscription model, too, but only provide once a year a really mediocre update, and afaik you even cannot use the old version anymore, if you don't pay anymore. Those companies ruined the image of that idea.



#13 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 19:13

NO  ,it means there will be a lot of pressure on their shoulders cause every paying customer wants to see BIG changes during ' that 1 year  period ' which will be different for everyone ( depending on when they upgraded ).

I would have no problem with this method if the price would be less .

 

Currently bitwig is around the same price as ableton standard , when 2.0 will be released it will be mighty expensive for what it is , compared to ableton the bitwig synth department is hugely underdeveloped compared to ableton suite ....( pricewise you'll get there after a couple of years ) 

 

And we don't even know if the new modulators will be polyphonic ( adsr for example ) ..pretty crucial when you want to control polyphonic parameters  , but ok ..we don't have any info on that ..

 

They have gone completely berserk with all their modulation stuff , and they will never even reach the depth and possibilities of max/msp .( max for live )

 

Don't get me wrong , I like the program ..been playing with for a couple of days..and it's a damn intuitive program 

 

Anyway ...whatever works for you . 

No bad feelings ;)


Edited by gentleclockdivider, 13 January 2017 - 19:16.

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#14 magickz

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Posted 13 January 2017 - 19:38

Hm ok, so there will be no "version 3.0" after 2.0, more like bitwig 45, bitwig 46... What is this all about¿?¿ I find that quite attractive - if there are functionality updates in between. I think people are so afraid because of avid and adobe. Since they have such a subscription model, too, but only provide once a year a really mediocre update, and afaik you even cannot use the old version anymore, if you don't pay anymore. Those companies ruined the image of that idea.

They provide updates that not everybody needs. So, why shouldn't users be able to decide for themselves if they want to skip 2 or 3 updates as long as they are happy with an old release (CS5 ^_^  )... I guess that's the whole point. Who's willing to pay a regular fee for a future that is not predictable. But Adobe made it very predictable what will happen if you stop paying the fee...


Edited by magickz, 13 January 2017 - 19:45.


#15 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 02:18

Fuck me sideways ,the audiomod device in  bitwig is capable of  audiorate modulation ( when envelope follower  is turned off )  , .

Any signal / track as mod. source 

Really really Impressive ;


Edited by gentleclockdivider, 14 January 2017 - 03:00.

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#16 Carbonthief

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Posted 14 January 2017 - 20:03

It's actually pretty tempting to go for it.  Honestly Renoise is pretty counterproductive to the kind of music I want to make right now, it's just really hard to leave it behind because it's so damn cool.  The built in polysynth is great, and audio tracks!  I'm so used to trackers now though that every time I use a piano roll it makes me feel retarded.



#17 ffx

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 12:10

Hm, I still do not understand that "subscription" model. Heh. What happens, if I don't pay again next year, but three years later again? What is the price then? Will I have to pay for 3 years then??

 

Fuck me sideways ,the audiomod device in  bitwig is capable of  audiorate modulation ( when envelope follower  is turned off )  , .

Any signal / track as mod. source 

Really really Impressive ;

 
Yes that's pretty amazing. Tried that now, too. Like a 2-channel ring mod. Or ringmod-filter.
 
 
The bitwig "forum" is a total mess. I have no intention to look there anymore. 

Edited by ffx, 16 January 2017 - 12:14.


#18 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 20:12

 

Hm, I still do not understand that "subscription" model. Heh. What happens, if I don't pay again next year, but three years later again? What is the price then? Will I have to pay for 3 years then??

 

 
Yes that's pretty amazing. Tried that now, too. Like a 2-channel ring mod. Or ringmod-filter.
 
 
The bitwig "forum" is a total mess. I have no intention to look there anymore. 

 

Well ringmod would be if you use it to modulate amplitude .

You can modulate whatever you want ,itseems that the underlying modular framework operates at audio rate ...which is totally awesome.

YOu can use an audio source (tunring of env.follower again ) to modulate vst's ...but it depends on the   vsti if it can handle that .

I am not really that impressed with the included instruments ,I could easily replicate them with reaktor ( apart from the internal mod.system) with better zdf filters , which makes me think that the underlying modular system when opened up , won't be as low level as say reaktor core  , max/msp gen ( codebox ) ...I wouldn't be surprised if ther were only hard coded standard filters .

This program is fun and quick ...but honestly the ( future ) asking price is way too high , modulation is great and will be greater in the 2.0 version ...but not everyone wants a gazzillion lfo's and env's , they better focus on some next level instruments , partial synths ( operator like ) etc ...


Edited by gentleclockdivider, 16 January 2017 - 20:15.

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#19 ffx

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Posted 16 January 2017 - 20:33

Well, agreed regarding amount of price... But maybe give them a chance to prove that development speed will increase?



#20 anttimaatteri

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 20:28

 

Hm, I still do not understand that "subscription" model. Heh. What happens, if I don't pay again next year, but three years later again? What is the price then? Will I have to pay for 3 years then??

 

 
Yes that's pretty amazing. Tried that now, too. Like a 2-channel ring mod. Or ringmod-filter.
 
 
The bitwig "forum" is a total mess. I have no intention to look there anymore. 

 

 

 

first, there is no subscription. it may sound like one on first sight, but its more like: you simply buy the upgrade and they promised you features and stuff for 1 year (which may or may not happen). if they would not have done the 1 year promise (which is a very risky marketing move tbh) it wouldve been a simple upgrade one have to pay for. and i dont think they gonna make promises and dont deliver. his would be commercial suicide tbh.

 

second, you may decide to wait til 3.0 is released or any other version which will fit your needs and wishes and then you pay 169bucks and u get the actual version plus 1 year of guaranteed updates and bugfixes and mail support.and so forth (at least thats what i understood)...if u decide to not upgrade you keep the version you paid for, but dont have any support past the last year you paid for.

 

fair enough, but not the best solution. im not sure if they are able to maintain, that people who decided to opt out of upgrading further on, dont get any bugfixes (iam actually not 100% sure if  thats the case, but it sounded like so somehow, so its on bitwig to clear things out at some point).

 

regarding prices i dont see any unfair status. bitwig is still cheaper than its main competitors, namely ableton, studio one, cubase or logic. if they will deliver the modular stuff on 3.0, at latest, and its then 299+169+169 bucks the price will be on par with ableton or  somehow not far away. question is will the content be somehow the same.

ableton is remaining a very strong competitor, even with a modular system (modular like in  native instruments not max afaik), tons of instruments n stuff and touch capabilities or mpe support on bitwigs side.


Edited by anttimaatteri, 17 January 2017 - 20:32.

snake thought by Antti Maatteri>


#21 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 21:39

the biggest problem is this .

Say you buy your upgrade now ,februari 2017...in december 2017 they ad this fantastic new feature , which sadly brings a lot of bugs .

If these new' slipped in bugs'  aren't ironed out in the next 2 months ..your pretty much fucked ...

Then you just shell out money worthy of another year .....

 

The bitwig team are probably   good guys , altough some developer has a repuation of abandoning things ( vember audio anyone ) , 

I like the program , in a week testing I found some bugs .

 

1.create lfo mod .
2. create synth nested in lfo mod .
3 . record some notes and ' Bounce in place ' = Silence ( same as bounce with pre fx enabled )
4. insert reverb (post ) 
5. Bounce in place : now works .
6.Delete reverb 
7.Bounce in place : works.   

 

 

In some parts it's also so counterintuitive ...I wanted to route multiple tracks to a summing track ..

Works great , audio is coming trough/processed by  summing track  , but as soon you want to record the incomming summed tracks into the 'summing track' ..It won't reccord 

You'll need to create another track and select 'the summing track as input ' etc...not a bug , but a quirky way of doings things .

You could ofcourse group all tracks and select group as input ..


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#22 anttimaatteri

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 14:30

the biggest problem is this .

Say you buy your upgrade now ,februari 2017...in december 2017 they ad this fantastic new feature , which sadly brings a lot of bugs .

If these new' slipped in bugs'  aren't ironed out in the next 2 months ..your pretty much fucked ...

Then you just shell out money worthy of another year .....

 

The bitwig team are probably   good guys , altough some developer has a repuation of abandoning things ( vember audio anyone ) , 

I like the program , in a week testing I found some bugs .

 

1.create lfo mod .
2. create synth nested in lfo mod .
3 . record some notes and ' Bounce in place ' = Silence ( same as bounce with pre fx enabled )
4. insert reverb (post ) 
5. Bounce in place : now works .
6.Delete reverb 
7.Bounce in place : works.   

 

 

In some parts it's also so counterintuitive ...I wanted to route multiple tracks to a summing track ..

Works great , audio is coming trough/processed by  summing track  , but as soon you want to record the incomming summed tracks into the 'summing track' ..It won't reccord 

You'll need to create another track and select 'the summing track as input ' etc...not a bug , but a quirky way of doings things .

You could ofcourse group all tracks and select group as input ..

 

 

a company which will maintain such obvious behaviour will not survive version 3.0..  you are pretty much fucked in any given license model, if a company dont iron out a pesky bug.

 

i even think they are beware of being on the radar of a majority of 1.0 owners, which maybe will buy 2.0 instantly or soon (the upgrades look good, hope beta will verfiy this), but will wait out a veery long period before buying their 3.0 promises.

if bitwigs existence beyond 3.0 depends on this years income, which doubt is the case, this company is screwed d.o.a.

i really doubt this.


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#23 magickz

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 18:41

....


Edited by magickz, 26 January 2017 - 01:13.


#24 Airmann

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 00:44

Bought Bitwig 2.0 at the first day. It's a DAW dream. Every cent worth it. The overhauled modulator concept is genius. And so on, and so on. Try it first, before judging. And it's stable already.
 


Edited by Airmann, 06 March 2017 - 00:47.


#25 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 06 March 2017 - 17:07

Been demoing bitwig 2 , found numerous bugs --> posted them on kvr , chaos ---> timbre ( assigned to whatever you want )  has no effect anymore  

If these don't get solved in the next year , you're gonna have to pay up .

The audioRATE side chain feature from bitwig 1 is gone  ( where you effectively use an audio source as pure modulation without an envelope follower detecting peaks )

 

 

That said , the modulation system is indeed fantastic , their instruments not so .

Fm synth  ,  they use a parabolic wave ...wchich already has overtones ..just modulate carrierby modulator set to ratio 1:1 , increase mod depth ...I don't know what they did..need to investigate further .

Or set FM modulator to a couple of hertz , we should get an obvious modulation in the pitch of the carrier , increase mod depth of modulator  ,..hear that ?

It surely is phase modulation , feedback gives us a saw ..

Don't like their synth either ...

Honestly , the new core build  effects in reaktor 6 sound way better 

I would gladly pay 150 euro for a naked bitwig with only the mod system and (some )effects .

IMHO It's too expensive for what it is  ,

 

I am glad you like it , and hope they will sell shitloads and reduce the price :)


Edited by gentleclockdivider, 06 March 2017 - 17:32.

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