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Bitwig 2 ....160 annual upgrade ...wtf


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#26 Airmann

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 00:02

I bought the upgrade. Since they added and changed a lot, I've expected way more bugs. So far almost no probs. Polysynth is great. I agree: FM synth seems a bit weak (I'd use Fm8 anyway). Sampler and drum engine are simple and genius, too (e.g. drag a wave-file on a dsp chain and automagically it's added to a new sampler instance, couldn't be easier). I wasn't exactly overwhelmed by the native dsp fx in v1. But I think they improved them in v2 - still have to find out. The new phaser is really great.I like how they improved also other things like the GUI, pinnable buttons, the media browser + library and all that stuff. Overall Bitwig has an incredible workflow, excellent envelope editing, best graphical feedback and for creative sound design and electronic music it's one of the best DAW, if not the best right now. I'm completely on bitwig, now.

 

BTW: chaos -> timbre whatever seems to be fixed. Guess your version was a beta version ?


Edited by Airmann, 07 March 2017 - 00:16.


#27 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 01:34

Chaos --->timbre is not fixed .

Create synth , choose expressions as modulators , select the timbre and assign to filter cutoff .

Now go to your clip , insert some notes and select the timbre/choas control ...introduce some chaos/randomness , your filter cut-of should now change according to the chaos settings , but it does not 

Nothing changes ..soundwise that is .

You have to change the timbre handles ( insert more then 1 breakpoint per handle )  in order to hear the changes .

The bug has already been confirmed on kvr ...and I won't register on the bitwig forum .;

Maybe you could do it :)

5o8gg9.jpg

 

If you look at the screenshot , the timbre (controlling cutoff ) handles are positioned by the chaos parameter, but they won't execute any changes ...you need to insert at least  another breakpoint per handle  ..

Try it out yourself , experiment with the handles ...there's something fishy goin on ...mix /max ..rising descending values ..don't make any sense


Edited by gentleclockdivider, 07 March 2017 - 01:52.

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#28 Airmann

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 20:32

Ok, I see. Maybe it's no bug at all ? Maybe it's a feature: right click on expression modulator. disable "Timbre is relative". Now you hear a change soundwise. Problem seems to be that Timbre is relative by default. Also, if "Timbre is relative" is enabled, you can draw a curve in expression envelope editor and then also hear  a change soundwise. Without a shape, cut off just flickers a bit, but is reset immediately to zero (?). Maybe this is not intended behaviour.



#29 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 21:59

Right click timbre is relative ...wOOOoooow

 

Fuck me ...seriously  :badteeth:

 

GIGANTIC FACEPALM

thanks for pointing out 


Edited by gentleclockdivider, 07 March 2017 - 22:14.

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#30 Airmann

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Posted 07 March 2017 - 23:29

But I still don't understand what "relative" and "non-relative" means exactly in this context. Searched the manual, but so far no answer. Strange.



#31 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 13:29

Well that it's relative to the knob position , the first point of the handle = initial point of the parameter.

This all makes sense when your using next gen .controllers as seaboard/ roli/ Linn  etc..when using the depth/z axis ..

Say your cutoff is @ 12 o'clock and you assingn timbre mod ( 180 ° pos.modulation   ) 

 

If you then draw a timbre handle going from 100´% to 0 ,it goes from it's intial cut-Off value to a negative .,iow modulation is not added 

If timbre is set to NON relative , it would go from full modulation --> back to it's initial state.  

It's best to draw some  ' V ' and inverted  ' V '  shapes to hear it .. 

 

 

Tha'ts why the chaos didn't work on timbre , because the random values of the handles were always equal the initial value of the modulated parameter , non relative fixes this 


Edited by gentleclockdivider, 08 March 2017 - 14:16.

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#32 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 14:20

But I still don't understand what "relative" and "non-relative" means exactly in this context. Searched the manual, but so far no answer. Strange.

 

Hi Airmann

 

I have tried the 2.0 demo and I'm surprised by the great similarity with Renoise. It's all very neat in Renoise's GUI style, but with a much more modern GUI. I have a doubt. In the configuration of two monitors, can not the top menu of the second monitor be hidden? I find it strange to have 2 identical menus taking up space on both screens, when it is enough on a single screen. Do you know anything about this? I also think the price is expensive, but Bitwig 2 looks very good.

 

I'm glad you're happy. I suppose you do not feel as abandoned as in these forums and with Renoise. At the moment, the Bitwig Team seems to promise future improvements and seems to comply.

 

I just expect some offer at half price or something later, and thoroughly test the demo along with versions with bug fixes nearby. Then, I may be encouraged to buy it. I also use FL Studio, but Bitwig is starting to like me a lot. The previous version I did not finish liking, and had more problems to display correctly in multimonitor configuration. With version 2 it seems to work better. But I still do not understand why two identical top menus appear. It's a waste of space.

 
 
I mean the first line of buttons.

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#33 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 08 March 2017 - 14:31


:excl: Development of my tools: KangarooX120SamRenderPhraseTouch  |  GT16-Colors (old)

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

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#34 Airmann

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 00:33

Well, in my opinion Bitwig delivers most of the things I've missed in Renoise. E.g. multi project support, wav tracks, proper envelope editing and so on, and so on. And they adopted a lot of approaches and features from Renoise and also Ableton. That said I don't want to discredit or bash Renoise here. Renoise was a great experience for many years. I had a lot of fun. It's still rock solid. Best tracker on the market. But the technical wheel has turned on during the last years. In contrast Renoise development definitely lowered speed. It's a much more smaller project, less man power, cost less money, a lot of people still love it and produce cool stuff with it. I still love the scriping possibilities in Renoise. Overall it's very well done, and I think taktik is a genius programmer. I always admired how clean and stable Renoise was.

 

But I've definitely seen the future, and I don't want to live in the past and wish for feature x and feature y anymore. That's all I have to say, and Bitwig 2.0 is total fun and provides very easy and comfortable migration for ex tracker guys like me.

 

All technical questions belong to the Bitwig KVR Forum. I doesn't feel good  to hijack this forum for that. And yes, this forum is IMO better than the KVR solution. Indeed the Renoise forum is legendary. I wish Bitwig had a forum like this.


Edited by Airmann, 09 March 2017 - 00:39.


#35 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 01:38

  That's all I have to say, and Bitwig 2.0 is total fun and provides very easy and comfortable migration for ex tracker guys like me.

 

 

That's something I struggle with , not having that tracker interface / the vast sample mangling capabilities .


Edited by gentleclockdivider, 09 March 2017 - 01:39.

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#36 ffx

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 10:35

Oh yes I really miss the tracker interface for entering notes + the huge null-lined analyzer in bw2. And the steep filters! So much good in renoise, a pity there isn't already a solid 4.0. Kind of blasphemy.....
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#37 Airmann

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Posted 09 March 2017 - 21:51

That's something I struggle with , not having that tracker interface / the vast sample mangling capabilities .

 

TBH I don't miss it that much. Rather, I enjoy entering note lengths / length and start variations, especially for chords. So much easier with piano roll. Also creating drums with drum machine is superb.  And if you miss pitch slides and all those stuff: use sampler and micro pitch expressions. And for mangling capabilities: automate sampler,  use envelopes, slice and cut clips, warp/repitch,stretch, reverse them, do fades, cross fades and so on. Renoise has not more mangling capabilitites. It's just different and Bitwig has a none-destructive workflow. At least that's my experience. If you want it destructive: bounce in place. Renoise Sample editor was really great, though. Also the spectrum analyzer. I miss the spectrum analyzer.

 

Regarding the steep filters: 4xLP and such stuff is also available in Bitwig. 8x is not, but for that and for linear filters  I use Fabfilter Q2 anyway.


Edited by Airmann, 09 March 2017 - 22:04.


#38 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 00:16

I don't know how long you've been using renoise ,so I can only speak for myself .

After more then 10 years of use , ..the tracker interface has become a second nature ...

I am a fairly good keyboard player , so yes ..I could use any other program and record stuff..but for drumprogramming there's nothing that comes close.

My 2 cents .

 

And let' be honoust ..the filters in BITWIG ..yikkes ...especially the ladder ...aliases at high resonce .

I am not convinced by the underlying modular engine , ( spoiled by reaktor I guess ) .

 Said it before , a naked bitwig + modulation @ half the price and I would consider it .

Happy music making ...we'll see you back when renoise 3.5 drops :)


Edited by gentleclockdivider, 10 March 2017 - 00:21.

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#39 Garf

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 04:33

I loathe this, only app I do this with is Photoshop and I'm not even a designer, I just need it to do some work :(



#40 Airmann

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 12:57

I don't know how long you've been using renoise ,so I can only speak for myself .

After more then 10 years of use , ..the tracker interface has become a second nature ...

I am a fairly good keyboard player , so yes ..I could use any other program and record stuff..but for drumprogramming there's nothing that comes close.

My 2 cents .

 

And let' be honoust ..the filters in BITWIG ..yikkes ...especially the ladder ...aliases at high resonce .

I am not convinced by the underlying modular engine , ( spoiled by reaktor I guess ) .

 Said it before , a naked bitwig + modulation @ half the price and I would consider it .

Happy music making ...we'll see you back when renoise 3.5 drops :)

 

Well, I was on onboard since Renoise 1.8, that's quite a while, now. I like a lot of things in Renoise like copying a drum pattern with Ctrl-P and so on, too. But I think the Bitwig midi editor drum view/mode is much more compact, and it's easier to see the events/notes in relation to each other. In Renoise the tracks are wider than the compact midi event lanes in Bitwig. If you use many drum tracks in Renoise it's difficult to keep overview. Much more scrolling needed, no zooming support wether horizontally nor vertically. Indeed I often lost overview while editing more complex drum parts in Renoise. No color coding, all tracks look the same.

 

Ok, I use the mouse much more in Bitwig for event editing, but nonetheless I'm fast. And I would be even faster If I would use a midi keyboard/drum pad. And I can use the PC keyboard, too. E.g. for microshifting events. That's not possible in Renoise. You simply can't shift a note/drum event a few milliseconds in time. There's no keyboard shortcut nor mouse support for this. You always have to do it indirectly using delay values, OFF event and such stuff. Totally cumbersome. Do a hand made shuffle in Renoise vs. Bitwig. Bitwig is much more easier.

 

@Ladder: I haven't noticed, yet. But such filters are often a matter of taste. Maybe aliasing is intended coloring (?).  E.g. I didn't like the filters in Renoise too much. Since 3.1 they were improved, though. Overall I assume the dsp's in Bitwig are derived from vember audio surge (Klaas). If they are good and fit in, I use them. Otherwise I use external stuff. Native DSP Quality is actually the least important DAW argument for me, because there are so many good plugins on the market. Ok, the better integration of native stuff is an argument, though.

 

@Renoise 3.5: if current development speed stays the same this will not happen before 2021. And in 2021 we'll see Bitwig 3.x for sure.  :-) ....

 

But finally I agree, regardless if Bitwig or Renose.... having fun and making music is what should matter most ^^


Edited by Airmann, 10 March 2017 - 13:04.


#41 Airmann

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 13:07

Well that it's relative to the knob position , the first point of the handle = initial point of the parameter.

This all makes sense when your using next gen .controllers as seaboard/ roli/ Linn  etc..when using the depth/z axis ..

Say your cutoff is @ 12 o'clock and you assingn timbre mod ( 180 ° pos.modulation   ) 

 

If you then draw a timbre handle going from 100´% to 0 ,it goes from it's intial cut-Off value to a negative .,iow modulation is not added 

If timbre is set to NON relative , it would go from full modulation --> back to it's initial state.  

It's best to draw some  ' V ' and inverted  ' V '  shapes to hear it .. 

 

 

Tha'ts why the chaos didn't work on timbre , because the random values of the handles were always equal the initial value of the modulated parameter , non relative fixes this 

 

Thanks for this information, but I still don't get it why at least two values and a delta between them is needed to cause a modulation effect at all.
 


Edited by Airmann, 10 March 2017 - 19:16.


#42 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 20:41

Pretty awesome FOR A DAW ;

 

 

Modulating dc off set with lfo  (khz range ) , keytracked an other stuff 

Lfo @   aliases at around 1khz (or rather  the incremental speed of the dc module ..which probably isn't optimised )  , but they ...it's fun


Edited by gentleclockdivider, 10 March 2017 - 22:27.

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#43 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 21:16

Thanks for this information, but I still don't get it why at least two values and a delta between them is needed to cause a modulation effect at all.
 

Because , when your playing the roli seaboard ( or any similar type keyboard ) , if you rest two fingers , one at the upper position of the y axis of a key  , one at the middle position of the y-axis ( another key ) , they are both at the initial state of the parameter

You can then slide from that position to another,  iow modulate , with your two ( and many others ) , one finger can go up , the other down ...they are both offsetting from the initail value , no matter where your fingers were placed ( first pressure point ) .


Edited by gentleclockdivider, 10 March 2017 - 21:18.

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#44 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 10 March 2017 - 21:36

too bad there isn't a noise osc.

Almost completely rebuild microtonic .

-test gen ,controlling amp by adsr 

lfo (khz) --->test gen pitch .

Damn ,it's nicer to build your own drumcomputer with the modulators  then the standard drum modules ( which are proably built in the same way )


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#45 m.arthur

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 00:10

This thread is baffling....we're here in the renoise forum, with a dude posting endlessly about how much he loves Bitwig 2 and how he doesn't use renoise anymore....cool story dude, maybe take it over to the bitwig forum?

 

comparing / ranking renoise vs. any other daw is absurd, as it's not even trying to compete with them. it's a tracker! they aren't! 

 

I used bitwig 1 for a while to compare it to ableton, and thought it was "perfectly fine" but saw no reason to leave Ableton, which I have tons of experience / tools invested in. 

 

but replacing renoise with either of 'em? No way! They aren't trackers, they can't do what renoise / trackers do....


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#46 ffx

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Posted 03 May 2017 - 09:08

This thread is baffling....we're here in the renoise forum, with a dude posting endlessly about how much he loves Bitwig 2 and how he doesn't use renoise anymore....cool story dude, maybe take it over to the bitwig forum?


there is no news about Renoise, nothing to discuss about anymore. that's why I like it if bitwig is discussed here. and the bitwig forum sucks, it s a mess. why not use this forum then?
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#47 Type-A

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 01:48

That's not really bad or to be unexpected for professional software with good support.  IMO it's not worth the risk of jumping aboard yet.  It remains to be seen if they're going to make it worth the investment, and if they're not just going to run out of steam.  Renoise may not get frequent updates, but by god it's proven it has staying power.  15 years of Renoise.  You can go back and open Renoise files from ages ago, and provided there are no plugins to worry about, it will open and run.  This is no small part of why I'm committing to Renoise, and also why I'm trying to work out a plugin-less workflow.  

 

cool :)



#48 lettuce

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 05:20

Sequencing using mouseclicks on a pianoroll is terrible compared to tracker style note entry with keyboard.

I was looking into learning ableton recently because it has some nice features renoise doesnt  like audiotracks and pitchshift+timestretch.

I really dont like the pianoroll. It can't equal the efficiency of pattern and track navigation in renoise and other trackers ( 'tab, shift-tab, home, end, page up, page down' style of doing things ).

Also if I want to do a sequence that jumps octaves a lot I have to scroll up, scroll down so much. Really tedious.

In renoise I can go through every octave like C4, C5, C6, C7 ...its just notes with octave numbers in a list, no scrolling. Much better.

I still have to spend some time to learn ableton though. Heard bitwig is nice too. Midi, audio and automations all visible at once per track.

Expensive though...I'd buy it for $75.99.


Edited by Barrett Wang, 27 December 2017 - 05:22.


#49 Renoised

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 00:18

Bitwig 2 soon to be released .

After that , an annual 160 Euro has to be paid to upgrade .

Greedy Bastards .

I was contemplating of jumping aboard , Not after this .

 

 

I had no intention of investing in BitWig, but I do agree with your response.
 


Edited by Renoised, 28 December 2017 - 12:27.


#50 random

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 01:18

like software but is a never ending story of burning money
a friend of mine is currently building a modular system together, so i get what is currently there with it. mutable instruments builds all-rounder modules, doepfer darkenery as rackformat, west coast crazy synthesis and so on

 

times are changing, does not take much space today for a flexible system, i think in the long term that's probably cheaper than pc power / update hungry software from bitwig, ableton, steinberg, native Instruments or apples cloud shit (how can i hack my ipad? )


Edited by random, 28 December 2017 - 08:07.