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You like Renoise? > Motivate the developers and BUY stuff!


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#26 ffx

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 06:04

is "paralyzed" right at a rather busy time on the part of the rest of DAWs, that causes that Renoise is obsolete in a short time. !

Nah, renoise will be never obsolete - and this is no good news - because in its niche it is the only serious, almost complete daw software available. also because it is sold as tracker with daw capabilities and not a daw with tracker capabilities.

Also I don't agree with your critics on the gui, OK high res still missing, but besides this it is a really well designed, rational, workflow improved gui. Lot of daws gui are much worse.

Edited by ffx, 22 March 2017 - 06:08.

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#27 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 12:03

Nah, renoise will be never obsolete - and this is no good news - because in its niche it is the only serious, almost complete daw software available. also because it is sold as tracker with daw capabilities and not a daw with tracker capabilities.

Also I don't agree with your critics on the gui, OK high res still missing, but besides this it is a really well designed, rational, workflow improved gui. Lot of daws gui are much worse.

 

I'll dig a little deeper here...

 

When I talk about the GUI I have in mind the high resolutions of screens at all times. Renoise can have a much better GUI while retaining its look and order. The GUI is much more than what we see with our eyes. I do not want the order of things and the speed of management of Renoise to change. It would be a disaster, because it is well thought out. That does not imply that the GUI can be changed from scratch. The code.

 

You have a very clear example with FL Studio, jump from version 11 to 12. The look of the GUI was very similar and the order. But the entire GUI was completely rewritten to optimize it, faster and more suitable for high resolutions. Renoise has the same GUI since version 1, with the same code base. Taktik seems to only intend to adapt to high resolutions, rather than rewrite the GUI in another way to make the sea more suitable for different resolutions. The current GUI of Renoise seems designed to be used in a range that goes from the screens of 1024 x 768 to 1920 x 1080, with the static GUI, without capacity of increase. This same GUI has its code problems. Making a simple adaptation, involves dragging the problems you already have. Why not a thorough review?

 

Indeed, I suspect that Taktik had a dilemma here. He knows that it is better to rewrite the complete GUI, and maybe it was one of the reasons that the development did not adapt to the GUI, because it is too much work itself, and dedicate itself to something else. This is what happens when you have to do a lot of work without just getting monetary benefits. Review and reinforce the GUI code and use a big step for this software, not just a simple adaptation, by dragging the old GUI. Or adapt, or make the code well thought out for the new situation. Obviously, the second option is better, for the software.

 

That would mean keeping its appearance, making it more modern to the eye, and at the same time making better use of colors, layers, and also improving the order of some things. You would still drive Renoise just as fast, only that you would have a better GUI, more optimized, and maybe consume less resources.

 

By the way, Renoise may be obsolete. It already is. You do not need competition to stay obsolete, because you always have to go to hardware now. I am talking about graphics cards, screen resolutions, processor and RAM. Obsolete software is one that does not take advantage of the current hardware.

 

Personally, I have been able to try several programs in depth, among them FL Studio, which I handle fluently. I've tried the Bitwig 2 demo lately. I'm surprised by his similarity to Renoise. I've had the chance to try the latest version of S1 on a PC from a great friend of mine for a few hours. He handles it like a bullet. I'm thinking S1 v3 is better than FL Studio 12. I like S1. But it happens to me that with Renoise 3.1 is the software with faster handling for me. When composing complex things, I go like a bullet, or like two bullets. I can not do the same with other DAWs. I'm just slower. That does not mean that the Renoise GUI can be changed from scratch. I wish the same workflow, with a much better GUI. And here between improving its look, more modern, the correct use of colors, the use of layers, etc., maybe the vector use of icons and things like that...


Oh, Raul, so eloquently explained. Thank you. Now I don't like renoise any more and won't BUY any stuff to motivate the developers. ...

 

If you want to motivate the developers: buy Redux, send an email to Taktik telling him that he has bought Redux, so that they improve Renoise, although Redux will not use it.

 

The best motivation is money. For a programmer, is that you buy your software...


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#28 ffx

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 12:09

? OK. Personally a simple upscaling would be good enough for me. Like in Photoshop :) well, the FL Studio gui code seems to be impressive work, but the look is unbelievable ugly. And it has floating windows everywhere :P

Edited by ffx, 22 March 2017 - 12:13.

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#29 boonier

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 12:50

Plogue Bidule did an upscaling job also. Work had to be done to account for the coordinates of objects in the canvas, but I think essentially it was a scaling factor on the existing coordinates. It was pretty quick to update though. Not suggesting it would be the same for Renoise though (disclaimer!)



#30 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 12:53

? OK. Personally a simple upscaling would be good enough for me. Like in Photoshop :) well, the FL Studio gui code seems to be impressive work, but the look is unbelievable ugly. And it has floating windows everywhere :P

 

True, FL Studio 12 abuses floating windows, but it is a good example of evolution of the GUI. Studio One 3 is better here, especially for multi-screen. Another much more beast example is Virtual DJ, jump from version 7 to 8. Version 7 was a real GUI crap. This version used a base BMP like skin. The entire GUI was written from scratch, also improving the audio engine, anti-piracy, etc. The GUI version 8 is fine now. FL Studio and VirtualDJ are the two examples I know best from the evolution of the recent GUI. Renoise could take them as an example.


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#31 Heptagen

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 12:59

I love Renoise partly because of the absence of floating windows. Renoise is perfect for a keyboard driven workflow and I dislike every single move I have to make with the mouse.

 

I don't understand your problem with the gui. To me it feels like home and the design is excellent. I don't miss a thing. But then again my opinion may be skewed due to my love to the software.  :wub: And the fact that I don't use 4k monitors.



#32 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 13:48

I love Renoise partly because of the absence of floating windows. Renoise is perfect for a keyboard driven workflow and I dislike every single move I have to make with the mouse.

 

I don't understand your problem with the gui. To me it feels like home and the design is excellent. I don't miss a thing. But then again my opinion may be skewed due to my love to the software.  :wub: And the fact that I don't use 4k monitors.

 

Do not misunderstand me. Renoise is my main DAW, for many reasons. But that does not mean that the GUI is right now. It does not even need a 4K. Renoise goes bad in 2K. Even at 1920 x 1080 you can see everything small. The problem is that it has so many things that it is necessary to make it small.
 
But I go much further. When I talk about improving the GUI, I'm thinking about the future, not just changing the GUI. For example, we have already discussed a lot of improvements to the automation section. Among them, the use of colors, the use of layers, the use of an external window for multi-screen, etc. All that depends on the GUI. The area of Automation is very basic in Renoise, and I'm sure a lot of people do not use it because they do not feel comfortable with it. An improved GUI (code) can help improve other Renoise internal areas that need good review. And I still go further. I think the Pattern Editor and Pattern Matrix can still improve on a few things. And it depends on the GUI.
 
Examples are a few. There is no color match between instruments and tracks. It really is a mess, and the colors are not taken advantage of. The improved automation area would help to compose more complex things quickly. The Instruments Box should allow groups of instruments to be grouped, grouped by colors according to related tracks, etc.
 
All that depends on the GUI. If you rewrite the GUI, you are going to think about all these things, to add them in the future. Rewriting the GUI from scratch is not a whim, it makes sense if you want to see this software evolve.
 
All this does not imply that the current GUI essence changes. You can keep everything in position, but with a new code well made for the news you could bring coming soon.

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#33 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 13:54

Plogue Bidule did an upscaling job also. Work had to be done to account for the coordinates of objects in the canvas, but I think essentially it was a scaling factor on the existing coordinates. It was pretty quick to update though. Not suggesting it would be the same for Renoise though (disclaimer!)

 

Maybe Taktik did just that, upscaling without touching many things, dragging the old GUI, before leaving and doing another project. It does not seem I had things very clear. In reality, you do not start a project without the mentality to finish it. Too much work and little money. But I do not understand that Taktik is doing another project. In the end, it's a question of being patient.

 

Someday there will be time to invest time again in Renoise...


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:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

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:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 18 July 2017):

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#34 danoise

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 16:27

I'll dig a little deeper here

...

Renoise has the same GUI since version 1, with the same code base. 

 

Sorry, that's "fake news". What makes you come up with such claims? 

If you had followed the project since the start, you'd know (for instance) that a very significant time went with rewriting the UI, all the way back with v1.5. 

And since then, over and over again things have been tuned and refined. 

 

For evolution of the UI, as mentioned, high-DPI is already in the pipeline. And I also think it makes sense to talk about larger UI components that could be placed on separate screens.

We've already got the instrument editor. Next, the mixer? 


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#35 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 00:50

Sorry, that's "fake news". What makes you come up with such claims? 

If you had followed the project since the start, you'd know (for instance) that a very significant time went with rewriting the UI, all the way back with v1.5. 

And since then, over and over again things have been tuned and refined. 

 

...

 

That's good news. I am sure that a new high-DPI will be liked by all. When I refer to the codebase, you already know what I mean. To Renoise's way of being corseted. The text fonts in boxes, the icons of the same size and that kind of thing. Of course, the GUI has evolved since version 1 (1.5 and next), but not in the sense of seeking suitable compatibility for high resolutions. Years ago there was no need. Now it seems to make a lot of sense, according to current developments. And the issue is, if you want to improve the GUI for high resolutions, is not there an adequate review for future benefits? Before you decide to make changes, you think of these things deeply. I think Renoise is right now at a very important turning point, which depends on what is done with the new GUI.

 

We've already got the instrument editor. Next, the mixer?

 

Mixer, and "Matrix+Automation" (it is practical to use automation together with matrix, it would be great to have both things in a window (another monitor) making the most of the height). About automation editor we have already discussed a lot in the forums. Perhaps the improvement of the GUI + deep revision of the Automation would be the most notorious for a next version. Also the translation of languages. But the more things, the less they will end up doing...


:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

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:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 18 July 2017):

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#36 justinf

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 01:11


For evolution of the UI, as mentioned, high-DPI is already in the pipeline. And I also think it makes sense to talk about larger UI components that could be placed on separate screens.

We've already got the instrument editor. Next, the mixer? 

 

Yes please, and pattern matrix if possible :)



#37 zookthespook

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 07:15

Just so it's perfectly clear: The clothing and other items on Spreadshirt are just for fun, set to the lowest possible base price that Spreadshirt offers, with no profit added on top.

In other words, Renoise is not funded by thongs, they're just for you to look sexy while you get hexy!



#38 m.arthur

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Posted 12 May 2017 - 18:50

 

The look and the GUI, the use of colors, layers, the order and speed of handling... The use of multiple screens and high resolutions has led to drastically improve the DAWs crowd GUI. That means investing a lot of time in changing the entire GUI to gain advantages. Renoise is obsolete for this reason. 

 

You should probably look up the definition of the word "obsolete" and consider your usage here. 


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#39 D-Omen

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Posted 13 May 2017 - 18:13

Love the mens blue hoodie and could promote renoise well walking round with that!

But its hard to know my exact size without trying on with hoodies, sometimes little to big or little to small and like the hood to have a nice fit on my head, i got broad big shoulders/back but not very long arms and im not that tall,...So medium/large/xl hmmm



#40 blackcoffee

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 13:28

Renoise should have goes the modular way for v3........... missed.............  and now? now nothing................. i think its dead........  i think modular is hard to programm i see no other reason.......... too bad



#41 Redman

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Posted 05 June 2017 - 19:06

Dead or not I just bought me one a dem tashty yella 'n gold retro t-shirts. Yeeeeeaaaaaahhhh



#42 Bungle

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 12:30

True, FL Studio 12 abuses floating windows, but it is a good example of evolution of the GUI. Studio One 3 is better here, especially for multi-screen. Another much more beast example is Virtual DJ, jump from version 7 to 8. Version 7 was a real GUI crap. This version used a base BMP like skin. The entire GUI was written from scratch, also improving the audio engine, anti-piracy, etc. The GUI version 8 is fine now. FL Studio and VirtualDJ are the two examples I know best from the evolution of the recent GUI. Renoise could take them as an example.

 

This is total nonsense..

 

FLS UX has gotten worse with each version since its very inception as a simple drum sequencer all those years ago, the developers at IL have little to no idea about UX (Just go and look at some of the horrific design of some of their plugins for that to be confirmed) and simply changing from BMP to Vector does not mean evolution of anything, it just means that it can scale without artefacts,

FLS UX and UI are both horrific, even stalwart fanboys of the package will fully admit that. 

 

VirtualDJ again you have no idea what you are talking about, just because VDJ7 skin was so bad, does not mean that it is evolution of UI in VDJ8, in fact if anything the VDJ7 skin was evolution of UI because that is when the engine from DJDecks was first implemented, when Adion joined VDJ development it took a while for his UI engine to be fully implemented in VDJ8, but even then, that UI engine was around in DJDecks some ten years before hand, so there is little evolution there either, just because it is new to VDJ does not make it evolution, VDJ is actually now DJDecks in a different coding language, that is all, what you are saying is like a car manufacturer seeing their competition release a car in British Racing Green, releasing their own car in British Racing Green and then claiming "This is the evolution of motor car coloring !!!!


Meh

#43 ffx

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Posted 19 June 2017 - 17:41

Fl Studio is nice (gui) code, absolutely flexible and high quality. Though the GUI design sucks and looks like a toy, IMO :drummer:   Still, FLStudio sells bigtime. It's for people reaching teenage  :badteeth:


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#44 Bungle

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 16:04

Do you develop FLS for IL ?

If you don't then comments like "FL Studio is nice (gui) code, asbolutely flexible and high quality" are complete and utter nonsense !!!

FLS is coded in a language that is far from flexible, and this is why it has never been ported to other platforms, you also have no idea how "Nice" the code is unless you are developing it, it could be the most horrific bunch of hacks ever to get it all working, trust me, some of the few things i have coded have been full of hacks here and there, and people think they are elegant design, they are not. 


Meh

#45 ffx

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Posted 22 June 2017 - 20:37

I can count to three, unlike you. The GUI code of FL is great, they even seem to build a crossplatform GUI thing, driven by OpenGL, afaik from Mac previews. The windows version always provided smooth 60Hz refresh rates, and it was the first DAW providing full touch support. Just read some old news to get a clue.


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#46 rotello

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Posted 30 June 2017 - 21:19

I don't want to say Renoise is perfect as it is... but I don't really need more stuff... or better i d like a "piano roll", .bmx machine support, some synth build in, unsign samples.... and so on but updates for the sake of it are pointless.

I

as long as you can use it enjoy.


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#47 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 01 July 2017 - 00:04

@Bungle, Some of your comments are awesome!

 

You have already shown several times by your comments that you do not use Renoise in depth. Now you show that you have not tested FL12 nor VDJ8 (nor VDJ7)... Keep going champion! Everyone already knows how horny you are with your comments!  ;)


:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 18 July 2017):

Spoiler