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Renoise update?Whats going on?


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#26 Fsus4

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 20:31

Disliked!

 

Haha!  :lol:

 

The thing is that I don't want to go too much off-topic here. Those important things I wrote and deleted deserve a thread of its own.


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#27 OopsIFly

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 20:35

No! Not another thread. Maybe at least wait some weeks with that, as to spread the load more evenly.

 

I still like updates though...



#28 Fsus4

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 20:39

You know, I'm getting really pissed waiting for that thread.


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#29 toblerpone

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 08:11

*Makes "Where is renoise update complaint thread? thread*

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#30 Bungle

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 10:27

If you need extra features, use another package.
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Meh

#31 slippycurb

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Posted 28 March 2017 - 16:47

Out of interest...how long can you leave bread in the freezer before its inedible?


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#32 LOLFAIL

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 20:10

 

*Makes "Where is renoise update complaint thread? thread*

 

 i think development of that thread is delayed because complaint devs is writting complaints in other forums, thats it, im selling my forum account license


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#33 OopsIFly

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Posted 29 March 2017 - 20:35

The thing with the bread and the freezer depends on...that cable with the plug on it, you know the one usually hidden behind the freezer...is it plugged into a power outlet? And not cut somewhere between the freezer and the plug, some people do it because the cable is too short to reach the outlet, but I believe it is a mistake.

 

This power thing, it makes hell lot of difference if used correctly. Hiding yourself inside the freezer becomes difficult then, though. You will starve - the bread next to you will frozen hard, you cannot bite bits of it anymore...


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#34 slippycurb

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Posted 30 March 2017 - 21:31

How did you know bread was code for "people"?


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#35 hotelsinus

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 08:31

back to jeskola buzz.

i give up renoise it is dead by devs, no important updates no nothing 

one patch by year is terrible for a priced software

 

jekola updated Buzz is awesome, sounds so much better then renoise engine. absolutely powerfull



#36 Fsus4

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 09:13

Do whatever works. If Renoise isn't working for you anymore, it makes perfectly sense to go for something else that does. Life is short.

 

But what was it about Renoise that worked in the first place? What has changed in that regard?

 

It's a tool, not a lifestyle. Granted, Renoise is a much more polished tool today than it was 10 years ago. But it's still a tool.

 

As a Renoise user since 2002, what has really changed for me today is more the feeling that there is a coming glorious future for Renoise -- as a business project. Back in those days, I constantly saw all these bright guys being attracted to the Renoise project -- but mostly based on idealism. 

 

Maybe that idealism explains why the community used to be so awesome. Another thing is that many of us were still comparably young adults with few obligations to anybody, maybe that explains why there were so few pretenders and so many doers, and probably also explains why the Renoise team seemed more interested to go for an open vision and an open communication with the users. My overall gut feeling back in the days was that Renoise would expand as a DAW with tracker capabilities, rather than expand as a tracker with DAW capabilities. And in that process grab maybe 5% or even 10% of the 2017 world DAW market share following the history of that decision.

 

Today it seems most of these guys are gone. Even the developers who used to be involved in the Renoise project seem to have little, if anything, to do with Renoise anymore these days. I know for sure a big part of that story is about all these guys having careers and jobs and families and limited time and limited energy and their own projects. But I was naive enough to think, back in those days, that a larger portion of those jobs and projects would be related to the Renoise project somehow.

 

However, since Renoise today in 2017 is mostly a one man hobby project, it's simply unrealistic (and even foolish) to expect that one man to spend the rest of his life maintaining a beast of C++ code for a niche product where the majority of users seem to come (and go) based on whims. Especially so if those users are out looking for a tracker, because the tracker race is already over, it's legacy and history by now. The tracker users are slowly dying out and in 10-20 years some of us who were influenced by trackers since 1989 will have grandchildren.

 

As the wise men say: Use Renoise for what it is, not for what it could be.


Edited by Fsus4, 01 April 2017 - 11:07.

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#37 ffx

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 10:13

But.... So nothing more to say? Coding renoise should be fun, but does not seem to be like this. No more love.

Fsus4: I don't think anybody expects Taktik to spend his whole lifetime on renoise - a bit of black/white - but yes, I would expect him to spend a little of his lifetime on his child. It needs attention. Or organize it in a way, so that other people can do.

Hotelsinus : is it a joke or is buzz development really continued? A pity it's windows only.

#38 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 11:07

...

 

As the wise men say: Use Renoise for what it is, not for what it could be.

 

Yes, Taktik is a genius, but that phrase is contradictory. You can not use something that does not exist, and if this means that your customers can not be excited about their software, well look that good...

 

And as a genius that is will come back to improve Renoise, and we will continue to use this software, improved! But some of you are bent on casting more dirt, as if you wanted to see him dead. We all know that Taktik is doing another project. When it finishes it will return, it will launch a version with correction of errors (many of them are already solved!) and soon it will take time for another version with more improvements of weight. But I do not like that defeatist attitude of Taktik, because it ends up disappointing his clients. Just read these forums from time to time. It is depressing!

 

Just be patient and trust the project. In a few months you will all be applauding with the news that will come. And I do not see any code problem. There may be problems of time, or money, lack of programmers or a larger team, but not of code.

I remind you all of you may Renoise be much more than it is now in version 3.1. Only lack that Taktik has the will to continue with its development. Do not give him any more turns!

 

 

If you need extra features, use another package.

 

You are a genius too! But perhaps people prefer to continue with Renoise, but with better characteristics. Simply that...


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#39 sokoban

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 11:07

Renoise is great as is, and could be better as is not yet.

Waiting for v3.2!!


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#40 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 11:10

But.... So nothing more to say? Coding renoise should be fun, but does not seem to be like this. No more love.

 

Love comes and goes, it is the law of life!  ^_^


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#41 Fsus4

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 12:20

Yes, Taktik is a genius

 

Well, to quote a genius on that issue: "Genius is one percent inspiration, ninety-nine percent perspiration."

 

I would agree taktik is "somewhat" of a genius in this sense, he knows the value of making something solid and well crafted, he has proven himself to operate from time to time in that 99% perspiration field. So what's the deal?

 

OK, let's take somebody else as an example here... Let's take for example a guy such as John Carmack, who in history contributed his share to the development of the gaming industry as it is today. What's really great about John Carmack? Is it his work in binary space partitioning? Is it his surface caching? The z-fail stencil shadows a.k.a. Carmack's Reverse? The popular games he was involved in? Well, all of those things surely require lots of perspiration. But what I personally think is the greatest act from Carmack is that he decided to release his "children" (such as the Doom 3 engine) as open source.

 

Now I'm not saying that taktik should simply release Renoise as open source and then walk away from the project, while pursuing his interests in other projects. He has suggested himself that there are some issues involved that makes such a move difficult. (We don't know what exactly, but let's guess it's about third party closed code and legal issues that simply can't be phased out without rendering the rest of Renoise dysfunctional.)

 

But I do hope that he'll consider the actual gains and possibilities from moving in a direction where new license models could arise. and taktik making more $$$ on royalities from such new license models in regard to the "Renoise engine" than selling individuals copies of Renoise. Doesn't have to be open source, could be "closed source" on a license. The important thing here is to see the potential and business value of derivative products. 


Edited by Fsus4, 01 April 2017 - 12:28.


#42 Fsus4

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 12:57

But some of you are bent on casting more dirt, as if you wanted to see him dead. We all know that Taktik is doing another project. When it finishes it will return, it will launch a version with correction of errors (many of them are already solved!) and soon it will take time for another version with more improvements of weight. But I do not like that defeatist attitude of Taktik, because it ends up disappointing his clients. Just read these forums from time to time. It is depressing!

 

Now this is taking things a bit too far, don't you think? Who are these users that "some of you" is referring to, exactly? Who is throwing dirt? I only see a few impatient users who want feature XYZ and fail to wait several more years for it, hence they get frustrated and disappointed and leave Renoise for other tools that offer feature XYZ or whatever. But I've never seen anybody, either in these forums or elsewhere, that has been "casting dirt, as if [they] wanted to see [Renoise's developer] dead" (!). WTF?? That kind of phrasing is just injecting guilt by association type of fallacies into the conversation here and adds little of constructive value.

 

Quite the contrary, I've never seen anybody hold any axe against taktik since 2002. He is most highly appreciated and valued as the creator and developer of Renoise, and nobody would probably ever want anything bad to happen to him. Maybe if he locked himself up in a dark cave and treated Renoise in a Gollum-style "My precioussss...." manner, for sure many Renoise users would be concerned if he was OK and wish he would change his mind about that attitude, but never ever would anyone wish him any harm just because he didn't fully commit to being a 24/7 Renoise developer slave.

 

Now I represent the view that it's refreshing that taktik is going all-in for other projects. The next scenario I'm hoping for is that taktik will flourish with many more succesful new products while opening the doors to Renoise and license the "Renoise engine" for derivative products by driven and innovative third parties. Doesn't have to be open source, could be a closed source B2B developer license -- or something in between. Could also be a slimmed Renoise version, offering just VST/AU effect and instrument capabilites but removing the native DSP, sampler and wave file mangling stuff.

 

I simply see no point in upholding a "have faith" line, attributing saint/genius status to taktik and in general trying to avoid rocking the boat ("uh-huh, let's not scare the fragile taktik away!"), hoping that if we just pray and give it enough time, non-pressure and blind optimism will motivate taktik to pick up and prioritzie Renoise development once again after that "other" project is "finished". 

 

I just prefer being constructive, realistic and look at the greater potential and possibilities of things, that's all. So let's wait and see what that new secret project is about and then return to this discussion at a later point.


Edited by Fsus4, 01 April 2017 - 17:17.


#43 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 17:55

@Fsus4, Wow, I mean Renoise (the software), not Taktik!  (Renoise dead),do not misunderstand, maybe I did not explain well. It is the attitude of some, as if everything was already done and perfect, when it is not so. Or by implying that you can do nothing, when everything is simpler. When Taktik has time, go back and continue developing Renoise, as he sees fit. There is no more history. The fact that renoise 3.1 is fine, does not imply that it can not be better. And while some consider Taktik a genius, he also has his way of thinking, and maybe because of that, some are not satisfied with this software and look for alternatives.

 

Regarding the license you comment, I do not think Taktik is willing to do so. He will have his way of thinking and his obsessions. If you have not already, he will not, never. And regarding pressure, read these forums in the last 4 months, you will see if there has been pressure or not. But one thing seems clear. Taktik will do whatever he wants, whether you press or pray to the saint. If you want to see this software evolve, you just need to be patient, it is not a matter of faith, simply trusting your only current programmer and in his word. If you want push or press, I wish you luck, some of us are tired already.

 

In fact, when ToybOx started the thread, the story was repeated again. Some laughing because they know what happens and see that others do not know, because there is no official information, it's all speculation. Others talking nonsense. This is not new. These forums are like this, and so on.

 

But there is a way to be useful. Find bugs and notify. This will improve the software. There is nothing worse than leaving a finished version full of bugs...

 

Now I represent the view that it's refreshing that taktik is going all-in for other projects. The next scenario I'm hoping for is that taktik will flourish with many more succesful new products while opening the doors to Renoise and license the "Renoise engine" for derivative products by driven and innovative third parties. Doesn't have to be open source, could be a closed source B2B developer license -- or something in between. Could also be a slimmed Renoise version, offering just VST/AU effect and instrument capabilites but removing the native DSP, sampler and wave file mangling stuff.

 

What if Taktik is still with Renoise and does the software continue to improve? If he use his time for other projects, then you will see Renoise really dead, that's what the whole is discussing all the time. If we talk about desires, I just want one thing, for Taktik to come back with Renoise. Any exterior project delays its development or maintenance (it is what is happening now). Stop licensing, other projects, and continue to develop Renoise. Another thing is whether desires can come true. I prefer that Taktik invested in Renoise and stop the nonsense. Only then will Renoise improve, as it has until now.


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#44 Roppenzo

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 18:06

Guys.. the good news about all this is:

 

Your license is valid for one full version. For example, if you start with Renoise 2.7 you'll get free updates up to and including 3.7. Our point releases pack features, not just maintenance updates. Check out our release notes and see for yourself what great value this represents.


This means at this developement speed.. a whole lifetime

:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P

Edited by Roppenzo, 01 April 2017 - 18:07.

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#45 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 01 April 2017 - 18:08

Guys.. the good news about all this is:

 

This means at this developement speed.. a whole lifetime

:P :P

 

^_^ Fortunately!


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#46 Fsus4

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Posted 02 April 2017 - 04:12

What if Taktik is still with Renoise and does the software continue to improve? If he use his time for other projects, then you will see Renoise really dead, that's what the whole is discussing all the time. If we talk about desires, I just want one thing, for Taktik to come back with Renoise. Any exterior project delays its development or maintenance (it is what is happening now). Stop licensing, other projects, and continue to develop Renoise. Another thing is whether desires can come true. I prefer that Taktik invested in Renoise and stop the nonsense. Only then will Renoise improve, as it has until now.

 

OK, so let's break down this opinion:

 

1. If taktik spends his time on other projects than Renoise, then Renoise is really dead.

2. Raul desires one thing: The Return of Taktik to spend all his time on Renoise.

3. Any other project except Renoise is BAD.

4. Raul wants taktik to put an END to other projects and STOP THE NONSENSE.

 

 

Here is my opinion, in contrast:

 

1. If taktik spends his time on other projects than Renoise, that's his choice and none of our business.

2. If taktik spends time on other audio projects, chances are high that those projects will add something of value.

3. It's refreshing to switch projects, try out new stuff, get out of the loop. Get some new perspectives (and customers?).

4. Fsus4 hopes taktik will go OPEN SOURCE with Renoise, or at least LICENSE a stripped down engine version for B2B.

 

 

And now I'm going to eat some pizza while playing around in Bitwig 2.1 with my Renoise 3.1 rendered loops.  :P

 

 

BONUS - Fsus4's Late Night Philosophical Question:

Imagine if Bitwig or Presonus or Steinberg or any other DAW maker out there offered taktik a job:

"We want that Renoise tracker concept integrated into our product for reasons X, Y, Z. We pay twice what you earn today."

Should taktik accept or decline?


Edited by Fsus4, 02 April 2017 - 04:44.


#47 joule

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Posted 02 April 2017 - 08:31

Fsus4, Decline. Much time is invested and the value for the other product would be much higher (?).

Current revenue is probably the least important factor to consider in such a deal, I'm guessing.

#48 Fsus4

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Posted 02 April 2017 - 12:11

Well, consider "twice what you earn" the total net income of all sorts, including other day time jobs. Revenue from Renoise/Redux sales being just one of them.



#49 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 02 April 2017 - 15:27

@Fsus4, do not exaggerate and read the context. It's very simple. Taktik is he just keeping Renoise (Taktik alone). If he is not, there will be no more Renoise. Investing time in other projects is not investing in Renoise. It is not about doing complicated operations, it's not about using all the time. But he is alone, he can not work miracles. Some want Renoise to keep moving. That is all.

 

Nor is it to destroy opinions or to think that a desire is an imposition. Now the only programmer who has Renoise is spending time on another project. That other project is not Renoise. Meanwhile, Renoise is "parked". Simply that.

 

And frankly, as Renoise's client, I care less about other projects. I'm only interested in Renoise and its future, because I want to continue using it, but if it has better features and fewer errors, better, for everyone.

 

For example, when Redux was developed, it was a topic I did not like. Because that time invested in Redux, it could have been to have a Renoise 3.2, for example, better, with better features. Examples: better code, less errors, better GUI, better area of automation, more functions here and there to improve other areas of work and things like that. I do not think it's crazy at all. It is perfectly feasible. Redux is of no use if you have Renoise as the main DAW. It's fine for other DAWs, but I'm not interested. Maybe my opinion does not please you, but that's how we all are, with different opinions, all respectable.

 

Well, I'll answer:

 

Here is my opinion, in contrast:

 

1. If taktik spends his time on other projects than Renoise, that's his choice and none of our business.

2. If taktik spends time on other audio projects, chances are high that those projects will add something of value.

3. It's refreshing to switch projects, try out new stuff, get out of the loop. Get some new perspectives (and customers?).

4. Fsus4 hopes taktik will go OPEN SOURCE with Renoise, or at least LICENSE a stripped down engine version for B2B.

 

  1. No one has said otherwise. I hope that Taktik will invest more time in Renoise. He will do whatever he wants, of course. Taktik is only as a programmer, as he reported...
  2. That's fine if Renoise was backed by a small or medium-sized business with multiple programmers (2-4 programmers). If the only programmer is elsewhere, Renoise stagnates (it's happening these months).
  3. The only feasible way to get more customers for Renoise is that Renoise is a better software. There are many alternatives. What do you want other projects for? The market is very saturated. But there is only one decent DAW as a tracker, which is Renoise. You need to pamper him like a baby, and leave the nonsense to one side.
  4. Maybe he prefers to keep full control of his software, there is no need to do it, because there are plans to keep this program as of now, little by little.
Just a new project that I would like: another tracker DAW like Renoise (with another name) powered by Taktik scheduled from scratch, it includes the inheritance of your experience. This is an impossible idea. Because a tracker today does not sell. But I am sure that this programmer, with his current experience, today, currently, would write other Renoise 1.0 in another way, with better code, with more capacity, more resource utilization, better GUI and a long etcetera, and of course, more modern...
 
Yes, Renoise 3.1 is fine. But let us all let Renoise continue to evolve, even if its development is very slow... I do not want other projects. The market is saturated with them!!!

:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist:

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise wishlist:

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#50 Fsus4

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Posted 02 April 2017 - 18:13

Just a new project that I would like: another tracker DAW like Renoise (with another name) powered by Taktik scheduled from scratch, it includes the inheritance of your experience. This is an impossible idea. Because a tracker today does not sell. But I am sure that this programmer, with his current experience, today, currently, would write other Renoise 1.0 in another way, with better code, with more capacity, more resource utilization, better GUI and a long etcetera, and of course, more modern...
 
Yes, Renoise 3.1 is fine. But let us all let Renoise continue to evolve, even if its development is very slow... I do not want other projects. The market is saturated with them!!! 

 

 

Raul, unfortunately you express yourself in a way that's somewhat hard to decode.

 

For me it's perfectly clear that an open source stripped down "engine" version of Renoise (i.e. excl. native DSP coded by others than taktik, etc) would serve as catalyst for the official Renoise project, still developed and maintained by taktik -- either alone or together with new devs. It's a coding lab where users can flesh out their C++ classes, discuss them with others, and possibly inspire taktik to implement these or similar adapted concepts, functions and solutions. The point is: the official compiled Renoise would not be the same as the open source compiled versions by third parties.

 

Let's just add here that there are also other possibilities in regard to taktik's development even without such open model. Suppose for example that we as a community managed to crowd-fund an additional coder to assist taktik (assuming he would welcome that). Would that be possible in your world or is it just "taktik-only-forever-other-projects-never"?