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Renoise update?Whats going on?


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#51 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 02 April 2017 - 20:20

@Fsus4. I think Taktik is not willing to do what you propose. If you reduce it all, the only "problem" is the wishes of this programmer, the only programer of Renoise actually. Do not get your head warmed.

 

Stop thinking about my opinions for a moment... Maybe if Renoise had more pull, more hook, would be worth trying things like the one you propose. But if this program is designed in this way, with maintenance and slow development, because it does not give more of itself as a business, little can be expected with changing the business model. Do you know some people, programmers, who are interested in using their time in Renoise? No interest! This program is from Taktik, and it is very likely that when he is not there, Renoise will stop developing.

 

The only way to do what you want, is to convince Taktik, contacting him directly, and honestly, I think you have it very difficult... Because it is necessary to have a legion of interested in this subject. I hope you understand me now. There is no choice but to wait patiently for him to invest more time in Renoise. That means not using time on other projects.

 

I really do not know what you want. Ask in these forums how many people would be willing to pay more to boost the development of Renoise, with more programmers and more resources. You're going to be alone, and it's because there's a wall between what customers want and what Taktik wants. He is busy on another project now (nothing related to Renoise), he is not going to waste time on isolated requests.

 

In fact, it is impossible to agree to 10 people from this forum for such your plan. Try it! I do not want to discourage you. My opinion or desire does not matter and your opinion or desire either, they are isolated things which disappear soon.

 

Would that be possible in your world or is it just "taktik-only-forever-other-projects-never"?

 

Why do you ask that? Taktik will do whatever he wants. Our opinions do not matter anything. If you want to know my own opinion... I would prefer that Taktik only program for Renoise and along with more programmers, a decent team. Because there are hundreds of programmers working on other audio (or video) programs, and the market is saturated. What reason would want to Taktik use your talent in another project unrelated to Renoise? Why does he learn more?
 
In short, it is not about our opinions or wishes. Here is a common element: Taktik and his way of thinking and the pull of Renoise faced with public opinion. I wish there were a madman lined with money to buy Renoise's rights and start a company with 10 full-time programmers to develop Renoise. But that will not happen even in the best dreams.
 
Ignore my opinions and follow your ideas. Maybe you will find support to convince Taktik. Good luck!  :D

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#52 d3lectro

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Posted 02 April 2017 - 22:34

Ive compared different DAWs (like many people here i think) and i always fall back to renoise-tracker. For me it is the most easy and directest way to make my ideas become true. Maybe because ive started making music with trackers :D. However- i would love to see that some of the great feature-requests from you all will find their way into an update. Hopefully this will happen :)



#53 Fsus4

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Posted 02 April 2017 - 23:17

We all agree Renoise is a product we love and fall back too from time to time (if it's not our primary DAW). The problem here is more about Renoise being developed for 15 years to become what it is today, and there seems to be no way we make things go faster in terms of development. Quite the contrary, in 2017 there is only one active developer, maintaining Renoise, Redux and a new secret project we don't know anything about yet. 

 

@Raul: I don't need to convince taktik, reality will knock on his door and do the job for me.



#54 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 10:58

Well, we have reached the final conclusion. It all depends on Taktik and his way of thinking. I think that answers what is happening today.

 

@Fsus4. Maybe Taktik does not care about this situation. When he pleases, he will return, and will do whatever he wants or decides. In these forums it has been proven many times that certain customer requests will never be added, such as audio tracks, pianoroll and all that. What is the reason? Supposedly, Taktik will not want to. Moreover, the situation that you propose with third party developers, already could exist with Danoise, or DBlue, programming also under the bonnet of Renoise. And that does not happen, perhaps because Taktik acts as a brake.

 

The current stage looks like the following ("seems" because there is nothing official, just some comments from Taktik in the forums months ago), speculating:

  1. Taktik is working on another "great mysterious project" unrelated to Renoise. That's why there's nothing new about Renoise these days...
  2. Renoise 3.1.1 in this year?: small update with bug fix. In my opinion, it should have been out months ago, because it only corrects errors.
  3. Renoise 3.2.0 in 2018-2020, 2022? with new plan included: serious update with GUI for high resolutions and other important things, according to Taktik's comments, January 17, it will only touch the current GUI to adapt it to high resolutions, not a new code for the GUI to work better, using vector images, for example. Currently, Renoise uses small PNG images on the icons. And the tools are a brake for Renoise to evolve as it should, when they should not.
  4. Renoise 3.2.1 with error corrections in 2022-2024???
  5. ...
  6. Renoise 4.0.0 in 2040??? ...an important version every 2-3 years

I hope Renoise 3.2.0 marks a before and after with a new GUI with new code, not based on the old GUI of 3.1.0, to mark and guide the future of this DAW. GUI with a vision of the future, not with vision to preserve the past...


Edited by Raul (ulneiz), 03 April 2017 - 11:03.

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#55 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 11:30

Ive compared different DAWs (like many people here i think) and i always fall back to renoise-tracker. For me it is the most easy and directest way to make my ideas become true. Maybe because ive started making music with trackers :D. However- i would love to see that some of the great feature-requests from you all will find their way into an update. Hopefully this will happen :)

 

I think there are a lot of people in the same situation. If you know how to handle Renoise well, you end up coming back, although some disappear because they are tired of the situation and the wait. The other DAWs are more powerful and modern in general, but Renoise has something special that makes you work like a bullet. However, the current situation is delicate.

 

The rest of DAWs are up to date. Watch Cubase 9, FL Studio 12, S1 3, Bitwig 2, etc. With a team of development and marqueting quite good. It is increasingly easier to handle them. I've noticed it with FL Studio 12 and Bitwig 2. It's easier to work with them faster. If Renoise does not raise her head, she's going to run out of customers... and one of the reasons is the ability of the hardware itself, which also evolves.


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#56 Roppenzo

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 15:13

Watch Cubase 9, FL Studio 12, S1 3, Bitwig 2, etc.


Those will not offer you a lifetime version for just 75 dollar :-)
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#57 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 15:43

Those will not offer you a lifetime version for just 75 dollar :-)

 

True! But it is a symptom of how far the other companies can offer an powerful software and how far Renoise's team arrives. In the end everything borders the money. I would not mind paying more for Renoise if it were more advanced and with a larger team of programmers, serious programmers, no amateurs. I would happily pay it, even double what it costs a license. But with the development of the last months/years is impossible.

 

As a detail, look at the credits of the professionals designers and programmers from other DAWs, for example Bitwig 2, which just came out.... While other DAWs are strong, Renoise hanging by a thread. It is true that the programs are different, but it would be great if the users had at least one DAW type tracker in the market that is strong and with a decent team of programmers for their continuous development and maintenance.

 

Other trackers are commented on, but they do not measure up or are considered competition, like Buzz, Radium. Look at this: Midi Tracker. It would be great to have a theme with all the small tracker projects currently available. Most seem like small projects of people crazy about trackers.  ^_^ It's nice to see these things...

 


Edited by Raul (ulneiz), 03 April 2017 - 15:50.

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#58 DJ TerraByte

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 16:17

I deeply respect the one developer Taktik and the situation he's in.
Thats all I wanted to say :)


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#59 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 16:44

I deeply respect the one developer Taktik and the situation he's in.
Thats all I wanted to say :)

 

Yes.

 

I wish other programmers would think about supporting the project of Renoise and Taktik and form a team with more power. Taktik deserves it for all the effort he has made. Well, it's on another project now, so the situation does not look bad. It's only "bad" for composers who use Renoise and want to see more updates. That's it all. Neither should we be alarmed. There will be more joys!  :)


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#60 tL One

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 17:48

Those will not offer you a lifetime version for just 75 dollar :-)

 

And neither does Renoise... ;)

 

You buy now, you stay in the game 3.1 - 4.1

 

(But nonetheless very fair I would think.)

 

 

[EDIT: I suppose you meant lifetime-updates with that statement. As C9, LXP etc also don't stop to work after x amount of time... ]


Edited by tL One, 04 April 2017 - 17:51.


#61 Roppenzo

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Posted 04 April 2017 - 19:07

And neither does Renoise... ;)
 
You buy now, you stay in the game 3.1 - 4.1
 
(But nonetheless very fair I would think.)


In Renoise terms that means a lifetime. :-)
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#62 Bungle

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 16:02

In Renoise terms that means a lifetime. :-)

 

Renoises lifetime has come and gone, it's just a tracker, their lifetime was a long time ago, all it needs now is updates to keep it working with current OS.

It will never be popular, music making moved on, and trackers ain't it.


Meh

#63 Fsus4

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 01:12

A proper visual representation of what I think Renoise is:

 

9182-a-swiss-army-knife-isolated-on-a-wh

 

So rather than saying Renoise is "just as tracker", or even "just a tracker with some modern DAW features", or even "a DAW with advanced tracker featues", I would suggest that Renoise is the equivalent of a Swiss Army Knife in the context of audio and composition tools. You fold out the screw driver, and find that it's not the professional screw driver for heavy tasks. But nevertheless it's working just fine as a quick and efficient tool in many situations where you don't need the pro screw driver. Then you fold out the saw, and again it doesn't do all the stuff like you would expect from a really good saw (such as side-chaining, ha ha).

 

How many of you have experienced that feeling of getting a really nice Swiss Army knife when you were young? I got my first when I was 8 years old, and I still adore this wonderful little "pocket toolbox" as a product concept. I feel somewhat the same for trackers, as I've been using them since 1989. One can't simply compare such a limited multi-tool with dedicated professional single-tools in the audio industry today, it would be like comparing Renoise's native reverb devices with the dedicated reverb plugins out there and say "look, Renoise can't do exactly what this reverb plugin is doing". Duh!!

 

But on the other hand, for those of us who prefer the tracker way of recording/editing notes and automation, nothing out there could really compete with Renoise as that sample mangling multi-tool Swiss Army knife that get's the job done in one important area, which is: enabling you to be highly creative with audio and having lots of fun in a relatively short amount of time. This is especially true for us who grew up with trackers and have a soft spot for the concept as such. There will still be users in 10 years from now that demand a mature and polished tracker, just as there are people that are still looking for an even more polished Swiss Army knife. It's a niche that taktik has practically "monopolized" with Renoise.

 

Then there are certain applications for Renoise that unleash even more creative potential if you know how to handle things properly. Like for example, running Renoise 3.1 as a ReWire master to control Reason 9.x is a fantastic marriage for both Renoise and Reason.

 

To take the analogy with the Swiss Army knife further into the realm of programming, compare working with e.g. Python for rapid prototyping rather than working with C++. Nobody would argue that counting to a million in an interpreted language like Python...

 

for i in range(0, 1000000):
   print(i)

 

 

...could rival the speed that same count would take for compiled C++ code:

 

#include<iostream>
using namespace std;

int main(void)
{
   for(int i=0; i<=1e6; i++)
      cout << i << endl;
   return 0;
}

 

 

Right? Well, the thing is that on another level and another perspective that in turn really depends on what criteria you're actually using to measure "speed" here. Just take a closer look at those two code examples above to get this point. Same with the discussion about Renoise vs. other contemporary DAWs, it all depends on the criteria and what you're trying to do.


Edited by Fsus4, 06 April 2017 - 03:09.


#64 Bungle

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 07:17

Think what you like, Renoise is just a tracker, that's why it is not particularly popular, that is why it is a hobby project for the developer, trackers days are long gone, now it is like a classic car, needs a little work here and there now and then, but other than that it wont change much.


Meh

#65 ffx

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 09:20

Tracker is a inaccurate naming IMO, it's more tracker vs. Piano lol, so the way to enter the data, but course renoise is a D-A-W WITH A TRACKER INTERFACE and not just a tracker. Only because the marketing wording wasn't too well thought,it doesn't mean this is accurate. Renoise is a daw which development stops for every 2-4 years, which makes it not competitive to the other daws. It's simply this. It's has already plenty of fantastic functionally and often the best concept / design - that's why we still use it. But it's lacking of lots of usual standards now, and here and there also handicaps a fluent workflow (e.g . Midi entering, dry/wet, parallel and yes sidechain). And it's basically lacking of change.

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#66 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 10:44

@ffx. I like his comparison with the Swiss Army Knife... very appropriate. However, it should not be forgotten that Renoise already has more than 16 years of life, enough time to consider perfecting some areas, instead of adding little things letting forget existing things.. That means seeing what is currently available and acting accordingly. This is not to compare Renoise with other DAWs products on the market. But perhaps it can be inspirational to improve Renoise.

 
And I disagree, Renoise can be compared to any DAW. In some things it is better, and in others it is worse. Most DAWs also have their defects, and some serious ones according to the user who uses them. But they have the right approach: if it is a DAW with a multitude of tools, review each one to improve it as much as possible. Renoise 3.1 can be found at that point now. Yes, it is possible to add more things, but instead it would be positive to improve what is already there.
 
@Bungle, Renoise is not a simple tracker, calling it that way is a serious mistake. I wonder if you've used this program in depth and still think the same thing. A tracker could be FastTracker, Impulse Tracker, MilkyTracker, ModPlug Tracker, ProTracker, MadTracker, etc... these are trackers. Renoise plays in another league. However, I think the same thing, Renoise will not change much. I do not see a Taktik investing much time in it. However, I firmly believe that the trackers will never disappear. They are very useful programs. But it is sufficient to have a complete DAW tracker to satisfy your users. Renoise is there, and can continue to evolve...
 
 
Milkytracker
Flasch-InstrumentEditor.png
 
 
 
ModPlugTracker (OpenMPT)
instrument_control.png
 
 
MadTracker
ss_main1.gif
 
 
 
SVATracker
svartracker_mainwindow.jpg
 
 
SoundTracker
tracker.png
 
 
 
Psycle
screenshot4.jpg
 
There are many more. The vast majority with a GUI from the nineties, small projects of tracker, and that many are updated to this day...

Edited by Raul (ulneiz), 06 April 2017 - 10:45.

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#67 Bungle

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 00:40

Don't try and put words in my moutrh, I said it is just a tracker, I never said it is a simple tracker, do not misqoute people to fit your agenda, that is disgusting behaviour in a forum.


Edited by Bungle, 08 April 2017 - 00:41.

Meh

#68 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 01:06

Don't try and put words in my moutrh, I said it is just a tracker, I never said it is a simple tracker, do not misqoute people to fit your agenda, that is disgusting behaviour in a forum.

 

..."is just a tracker"... If you do not like my opinion, it is your problem.

 

Sorry, but Renoise is not a tracker, it is much more than that!!! That is my discrepancy, I do not consider that Renoise is just a tracker.

 

Do not get carried away by the word "simple", but what if you use the word "DAW"? Does that sound right? I shared some pictures with you too, so you can compare.

 

It was just a comment, Bungle...

 

I agree, sometimes there are unpleasant comments in the forums.


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#69 MonsterRadioMan

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 05:35



#70 Fsus4

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 09:44

The "Renoise is just a tracker" view is to a degree somewhat correct --  if the essence of Renoise is defined by the current tracker interface. It really is "just a tracker" in the sense that people who don't feel comfortable with the tracker's pattern editor and the alphanumeric representation of data really have no other option when working in Renoise.

 

However, if we also look at the potential of a product, I don't think it would be correct to suggest that Renoise is essentially defined by the alphanumerical pattern editor. Not if we look at the total amount of time and effort put into developing the product. If he wanted, taktik could probably carve out the pattern editor, replace it with a piano roll, audio tracks and clip launchers, recompile the code and sell it as a new product called ReLoop or something. Nobody would then be able to say ReLoop is a tracker.

 

So when we discuss what Renoise is, I would say we need to not only take into account the current shape and form, but also the substance behind that shape and form. All the hard DSP "Renoise engine" coding that taktik has developed for 15 years -- THAT really is the essence of Renoise, the rest is just superficial cosmetics in comparison. Therefore, if we look at the potential of Renoise, it's clear that just by adding those common elements that enable people with no "tracker skills" to instantly start working in Renoise, such a move would immediately erase the "it's just a tracker" conclusion.

 

 

Think what you like, Renoise is just a tracker, that's why it is not particularly popular, that is why it is a hobby project for the developer, trackers days are long gone, now it is like a classic car, needs a little work here and there now and then, but other than that it wont change much.

 

Yeah, but if Renoise is like a classic car, you are like the guy who shows up at the Classic Car Club and points out to everyone that their beloved classic car is not the latest mass produced modern car and probably never will be.

 

And when you see a modern car engine with a classic car chassis, you seem to argue that the vehicle as a whole is a classic car. 


Edited by Fsus4, 08 April 2017 - 11:51.


#71 joule

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 10:12

To me, Renoise is "just a tracker". Semantically, Renoise can be a lot of things depending on how you use it, but let's be frank: the only main thing that it's really good at compared to the competition, is being a tracker.

 

I think that's perfectly fine. I recently changed my mind about this and think it might be smarter to refine the tracker aspect (e g sample mangling) with timestretch and such, rather than trying to compete by improving 1) mixing, 2) arranging, 3) synthesizing.

 

And yeah.. Renoise is also very good as a platform for manipulating note data via lua :guitar:



#72 ffx

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 11:07

I would also add these points, why renoise is great and better than any other daw in some aspects (unique features) :

- human readable / txt format file formats, dsp chains, doofers, open minded
- text based copy - paste buffer, perfect for Internet exchange
- in Deep Manipulation thru scripting API of almost every part of the daw
- awesome stability, most solid plug-in scanner
- super slim and nicely designed mixer view, but even completely mixable in track dsp view
- nice pre/post volume concept
- auto master volume
- simply the best graphical analyzer ever
- ability to open two renoise side by side, and doing faaast copy paste
- very good vst options, solid multicore processing ( I think even if the plug-in does not support it)
- yes tracker view, but also lot of note / parameter manipulation options
- adorable sequence List concept, super fast navigation in the song while editing
- best built in sampler, almost a synth
- best built in sample editor in Comparison
- very complete filter dsp collection (though I disagree with filter3 depreciation)
- super usable distortion dsp
- very good and neutral compressors
- the best and most competent forum

Edited by ffx, 08 April 2017 - 11:08.

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#73 Fsus4

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 12:29

I'd also add these to the list:

 

- Phrases (very unique and genius feature)

- Render Plugin To Instrument

- Playback one step at a time (pressing Enter)

- Formula device with custom code

- Multiband Send

- Custom skins/themes


Edited by Fsus4, 08 April 2017 - 12:32.

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#74 Fsus4

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 14:04

And yeah.. Renoise is also very good as a platform for manipulating note data via lua :guitar:

 

Yeah, I'll probably also go Lua scripting ASAP. Just need to find some time. As you already know, as a song writer/composer I'm mostly interested in speeding up the chord progression workflow in Renoise. Basically what I want to do is to make Renoise behave like applications such as "Band in a box", "Chordpulse", "Sundog Song Studio" etc. I have many ideas in this particular area. Looking forward to the publication of your Lua stuff in these areas as well, when it's ready.



#75 Djeroek

Djeroek

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Posted 08 April 2017 - 15:06

 

 

Renoise update?Whats going on?

*triggered*

 

 

Renoise update? Whats going on?