Jump to content


Photo

Retrigger problem - please help!


  • Please log in to reply
9 replies to this topic

#1 idem345

idem345

    Advanced Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 118 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 24 May 2017 - 17:30

Hello,

 

I was programming breakbeats in Renoise when I encountered the following problem: I have a sample which starts with a ride and then is followed by a snare drum a little later than halfway through the sample. I have synced this sample to 8 LPB so it's perfectly in time whenever I trigger the ride (xS00) or the snare (xS80)

 

Then I want to retrigger the sample every 4 lines and theoretically all I should hear is a consecutive ride sample. However, there is a tiny but clearly audible click from the snare whenever the sample is triggered. This click shouldn't be there because the sample is synced to 8 lines and the snare clearly starts later than xS80.

 

I have attached a .XRNS to explain the problem Please help!

Attached Files



#2 4Tey

4Tey

    Big Masta Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 555 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 24 May 2017 - 19:43

Just out of curiosity idem345:  Does it help any if you add say a AHDSR modulation to the sample that has no release stage (make sure NNA is also set to Note-Off)


Edited by 4Tey, 07 July 2017 - 15:39.


#3 idem345

idem345

    Advanced Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 118 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 25 May 2017 - 11:04

Yes it helps. Thank you.

 

But I still wonder why there is a click even if the snare is clearly not in range of the retriggered sample? How can that be? I would love to hear an explanation for this.



#4 Achenar

Achenar

    Big Masta Member

  • Renoise Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 568 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Aviemore, Scotland

Posted 25 May 2017 - 11:35

The problem isn't the initial triggering of the sample, it's that playback is slightly too fast when Beatsync is enabled. As you say, sample playback should only have reached 80 when you trigger it again halfway through, but I ran my own tests and the shorter a sample is the more it overshoots by.

 

See dblue's reply below.


dh.pngsoundcloud.pngyt.pngfb.pngtw.png


#5 4Tey

4Tey

    Big Masta Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 555 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 25 May 2017 - 12:20

I've highlighted the part that (according to Renoise) should last for exactly 8 lines at X BPM/LPB (assuming that that length of silence represents C-4 playback pitch at 8 lines.)  However I've extended the sample slightly with 'noise' at the end.  Technically if I trigger that sample every 8 lines I should not hear that noise played at the end (because we assume we get a completely clean re-trigger.)  However I do get an 'overshoot' click in the audio buffer.

 

[Edit:]  As Dblue explains below there is a tiny fade out release phase on the re-trigger which is what I'm hearing :)


Edited by 4Tey, 07 July 2017 - 15:39.


#6 idem345

idem345

    Advanced Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 118 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 25 May 2017 - 13:08

The problem isn't the initial triggering of the sample, it's that playback is slightly too fast when Beatsync is enabled. As you say, sample playback should only have reached 80 when you trigger it again halfway through, but I ran my own tests and the shorter a sample is the more it overshoots by.

 

The bug persists even if you turn off beatsync. The closer the natural length of the sample is to the retriggered length, the louder you hear a click from outside the range.

 

I think devs should look into it. This is certainly not okay!



#7 dblue

dblue

    Dodgy Geezer

  • Admins
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5832 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Berlin
  • Interests:Code. Music. Graphics.

Posted 25 May 2017 - 15:16

The problem is not really related to beat sync.

When a note interrupts another playing note, as it does constantly in your example XRNS, the sample's NNA (new note action) is triggered.

If the NNA is set to note off, then it will obviously trigger the release stage of whatever volume envelope you have defined, or it will apply a simple fade out at the very least.

But even when NNA is set to cut, it does not simply cut the previous note to dead silence instantly, it will still apply a short fade out — ironically to avoid clicks!

So you are indeed hearing a tiny overlapping portion of the snare drum from the 2nd half of the sample while the previous note briefly fades out.

Renoise doesn't know that it's a breakbeat with a snare that will creep in. It could be a string pad, or a bass, or anything else which would typically rely on that fade out to avoid nasty artifacts.

So... If you absolutely require precise sample-accurate cuts for your breakbeats, then simply cut your breaks into individual slices/samples instead.
  • Achenar, Neurogami and idem345 like this

#8 idem345

idem345

    Advanced Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 118 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 09 June 2017 - 21:21

The problem is not really related to beat sync.

When a note interrupts another playing note, as it does constantly in your example XRNS, the sample's NNA (new note action) is triggered.

If the NNA is set to note off, then it will obviously trigger the release stage of whatever volume envelope you have defined, or it will apply a simple fade out at the very least.

But even when NNA is set to cut, it does not simply cut the previous note to dead silence instantly, it will still apply a short fade out — ironically to avoid clicks!

So you are indeed hearing a tiny overlapping portion of the snare drum from the 2nd half of the sample while the previous note briefly fades out.

Renoise doesn't know that it's a breakbeat with a snare that will creep in. It could be a string pad, or a bass, or anything else which would typically rely on that fade out to avoid nasty artifacts.

So... If you absolutely require precise sample-accurate cuts for your breakbeats, then simply cut your breaks into individual slices/samples instead.

 

Can you please make this feature optional in the next release? It's turning into a real problem in my current project as I want to trigger drums via Sxx command. I don't wanna use slices for a particular reason.



#9 idem345

idem345

    Advanced Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 118 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 23 August 2018 - 20:25

One year later and this feature makes me really hate Renoise as of now. Thinking about migrating to another DAW because I CAN'T TRIGGER MY DRUM SAMPLES PROPERLY !!! :angry:



#10 pat

pat

    Big Masta Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 515 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 27 August 2018 - 22:36

I agree this is frustrating