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RAS - Renoise Accompaniment System


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#301 joule

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 22:27

Edit: Deleted


Edited by joule, 10 January 2018 - 16:28.


#302 lettuce

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 22:34

edit : deleted


Edited by lettuce, 16 January 2018 - 04:18.

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#303 Renoised

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 22:36

@Raul, it sounds as if inspiration is flowing then, and I told ya ... 12th page of the RAS thread and all that ... :dribble:

I don't understand the technical stuff but I think I'm understanding enough to visualise what you're talking about with your KATIA SYSTEM.  Just a heads-up about the "RAS" name though, I don't want anyone to think I've claimed it in any way, so I really hope I've never given that impression!  I'm more than happy (I'd be honoured even) for whatever system meets the complete goal of RAS, to carry the RAS name.  I just want Renoise to be my 'one and only' DAW, my audio and music production tool of choice, so I desperately want to see this stuff inside Renoise.


@Joule, Personally I'm just happy to watch you try different stuff and experiment, and I'm not entirely sure what route you've decided to take or even whether you've decided yet anyway.  For example, your latest demo uses phrases, but when I mentioned phrases earlier you pretty much gave the impression it wouldn't be doable.  So I'm a bit confused in that respect, but as for the rest of it, without knowing whether official chord recognition ability would be added in an update, what yourself and Raul are doing here is something we pin out hopes on, so 'just do your best' is really all I can think to say to that one.

Whatever you think is best, go for it, same for Raul, cause obviously no one has a better idea of what's in your heads than you do yourselves.  We're very lucky to have not one, but two people on here showing not just these tools, but also a good understanding of design and workflow, cause without that, the project and brainstorming would get extremely messy!


Edited by Renoised, 05 January 2018 - 22:37.


#304 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 22:37

What would be the benefit of using OSC over using the pattern editor directly?

 

It seems superfluous to program some kind of internal sequencer when we already have a sequencer/editor that can be fully controlled. By using the pattern editor for triggering notes, you'll even have the possibility to tweak phrases manually during playback. In addition, there would be no need for some special "render to pattern editor" method.

 

To benefit from live recording, including volume values, delay values and note-OFFs values. With this system you can play live the phrase slot you want, from the instrument you select. Even play and sound all the notes without recording anything yet. How do you play the notes from the pattern editor? It would be necessary that the notes were written before.

 

What do you mean by "render to pattern editor"?

 

EDIT: I am reading your comment several times, trying to understand what is the problem of using OSC Server. I think it has not been clear in the previous explanations. But when using OSC Server, you can play the notes, chords and phrases without writing a single note, before recording anything. This is useful for me. I understand that there is no way to sound the notes through a button if you do not use OSC Server. In addition, Renoise's internal live recording through OSC Server is accurate, including the delay values, even in the OFF notes when playing live. Is it possible to do all that without using OSC Server?


Edited by Raul (ulneiz), 05 January 2018 - 22:48.

:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

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:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 26 September 2017):

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#305 joule

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 22:49

Edit: Deleted


Edited by joule, 10 January 2018 - 16:28.


#306 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 22:50

They turned out to be a lot more useful than I thought :blush:  They're not optimal, but the approach (voice separation in phrases) I demonstrated should be good enough by far. At least it's easily on par with chord pulse and my korg microarranger.

 

I'm sure that this is the easiest way to do auto-accompaniment in Renoise. The only thing that is technically difficult is real-time chord input via keyboard. Other than that, the mechanics aren't difficult at all. It's mostly about making a good UI where you can tweak voicings and add/remove channels or sections. I'd imagine something that looks quite similar to the P.M. but with some additional ui elements.


 

That's even beneficial. Arrangers normally only change chords on beats, which is a mechanism you get for free if you use a playing pattern for triggering your notes. As I've demonstrated, apart from percussions, by using phrases you can trigger a full arrangement on only one line in the pattern editor.

 

Would you use the keyboard and the mouse to control the tool? Would not you consider adding MIDI Input?


:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 26 September 2017):

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#307 joule

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Posted 05 January 2018 - 23:01

Edit: Deleted


Edited by joule, 10 January 2018 - 16:28.


#308 joule

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 00:06

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Edited by joule, 10 January 2018 - 16:28.


#309 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 00:10

Me, personally? If I made a tool just for me, I wouldn't care about midi input. I'd use a GUI to edit the chords and tweak inversions.

 

About OSC.. you don't need delay values for entering chords.. note-offs are also irrelevant, as the chord should be running until a new chord is detected.

 

Ok, I am trying to imagine a use for live recording, recording exactly what you are playing, including delays and note-offs, keeping in mind the release and the duration of each line. If it's only for editing, this does not matter.

 

.


:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 26 September 2017):

Spoiler

#310 Land of Bits

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 00:38

fuck .there are a lot of pages in this topic...but...it all sounds like project sharing ....with some ...visual trick ..to engage the nu user :)

nice.......

 

project sharing + visual enhancements in the RAS system (diff tracks and options) ...= '''''instant gratification'''' 



#311 Renoised

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 21:30

@Joule, Was thinking the same, and actually, hoping your next demonstration would show the selecting of variations so that you can demonstrate fills etc.  Cool thing is, if you've decided on phrases now, that wouild mean a 'Variation' as far as RAS is concerned, is basically the same thing as selecting different phrases in the phrase editor.  I mean if you were to imagine those little numbered squares as larger buttons that had names like Intro, Main1, Main2, Fill1, Fill2, Bridge, Chorus etc, all they would technically be is larger phrase selection buttons with an editable name (and perhaps colour) :)

 

@Raul, MIDI input is VITAL, man, VITAL - otherwise how would peeps assign their pad controllers to trigger RAS chord pads in a live setup and stuff like that :D

@Land of Bits, Ah yes, and "Instant Gratification" shall no longer be the domain of Casio and Yamaha once RAS gets it's ass out of the door :walkman:


 


Edited by Renoised, 06 January 2018 - 21:40.


#312 Renoised

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 21:49

BTW, isn't anyone going to congratulate me?
Notice anything different about me today?

I'm a 'Local Chief Member' now ^_^

 


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#313 joule

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 21:56

Edit: Deleted


Edited by joule, 10 January 2018 - 16:28.


#314 Renoised

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 22:45

To be perfectly honest I hadn't even considered the neccessity of storing samples along with a RAS file, but wow, yeah you'd certainly need that option in Renoise due to it's sound source being a sampler.  Accompaniment keyboards have the benefit of having access to their own built-in sound pallette, so I suppose any demo RAS files that were included should always be created using samples that come as standard with Renoise.  And when the user creates their own custom RAS accompaniments using their own samples, there could be a checkbox to save any custom samples in the RAS file.

Can't comment on option A or B for the Variation system other than go with whatever you think would work best.  As long as variations work in the manner expected of them, and as long as, when you change chord part-way through a phrase, it has the ability to change on whatever sync mode is usually used for these things.  For example, in your demo you had to wait for the phrase to finish before it changed to your chosen chord, but in reality, it has to be able to do that even part-way through a phrase.  Same with changing from one Variation to the other, it needs to be able to do that same sort of sync thing.

Regards the MIDI, I don't even know what Viewbuilder is so I can't comment on that, but I just wanted to make sure that MIDI control of chord pads is taken into consideration.  I can imagine it would really infuriate people to find that they couldn't trigger the chord pads through MIDI, so it basically needs to follow standard MIDI spec so that people can control it from MIDI chord pads or a MIDI keyboard.  RAS would make an excellent live performance tool as well as being a tool for writing music, so, very important.


 


Edited by Renoised, 06 January 2018 - 22:50.


#315 joule

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 22:54

Edit: Deleted


Edited by joule, 10 January 2018 - 16:28.


#316 Renoised

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Posted 06 January 2018 - 23:04

That's what I meant by the sync, it doesn't change instantly, only at the right time, 'on-beat' so to speak - same with the variation changes.

 



#317 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 07 January 2018 - 22:27

I just want to write one thing here, in case I forget...

  • Renoise can control an instrument with the alphanumeric keyboard (with pressed and released).
  • Renoise can contorl an instrument with MIDI Input (keyboard or pad MIDI)  (with pressed and released).
  • I believe that Renoise allows you to control MIDI Input in parallel, mapping a window tool. So, even though this window tool is not selected, the MIDI Input of this tool will continue to work. This means that a tool could be built to play chords, to record those chords with the instrument and the custom track, different from the instrument selected by default in the instruments and to the track selected by default in the pattern editor. and the composer would play through the MIDI Input of the tool from Renoise. Therefore, at the same time, you could play the instrument selected by default with the track selected by default through the alphanumeric keyboard. This would be the best combination of peripherals to play 2 instruments at the same time on 2 separate tracks. The basic scheme:

[RENOISE, USB keyboard ] --> control the default selected instrument and the default selected track for live recording/edit the accompaniment (view the cursor inside pattern editor, and the selection inside intrument box).

[Window Tool, OSC Server and MIDI Input (buttons), keyboard/pad MIDI ] --> control the custom selected instrument and the custom selected track (different from the default selections), for live recording/edit the chords (view the selections in tool windows).

 

In this way it is possible to play 2 instruments in parallel, both on the same track and on separate tracks, with the 2 best possible peripherals. I contemplate the scenario that most music fans, only have a MIDI keyboard. If you have several MIDI devices, I think it would be possible to create a double tool, to control two instruments through MIDI Input.

 
However, it is clear that this is not a RAS, it is not an "automatic" accompaniment system, but rather it is a double control system, using 2 hands in the live recording.
 
Then, creating a single window tool with MIDI Input to write chords in the live recording, through OSC Server, with the ability to be able to change the selection of the instrument and the track from the tool (not from Renoise), would be an option magnificent, because it would allow the live recording of the alphanumeric keyboard in parallel, directly from Renoise; control of 2 instruments and 2 tracks with 2 hands, and all you generate is the writing of notes in the pattern editor.

:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 26 September 2017):

Spoiler

#318 lettuce

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 00:04

edit : deleted


Edited by lettuce, 16 January 2018 - 04:18.


#319 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 01:22

@TaiYang Wang. I do not know you at all. But I have a way of thinking very similar to your comments.

 

While it will be useful for some new users to have specific chords on buttons either for live use via midi or for compositional purposes there is still something good about learning the chords and arranging without those aids.

...

 

True! I have built a tool called VPDpro. ChordPad, for pedagogical purposes. You can enter chords directly, but the tool shows you the keys and notes that make up each chord, the distance between them.

 

...

For example, if I were to write whatever rhythm I wanted using only the note C in a phrase, then play any chord, the chord would playback in that rhythm.

I could do a keysplit and have two instruments on one keyboard. One for the chord rhythm, another for lead. Its possible I would have to set new note action to continue rather than cut. Overall its not that difficult to do if you know a few chords.

...

 

In case you want to play two instruments with chords and some accompaniment, it would be feasible to divide an instrument into two or more pieces, and take advantage of the phrases, which are what they are for. Anyway, I do not usually use phrases, I usually write all the notes in the pattern editor.

 

Autoaccompaniments are not such an attractive idea for me personally because I would just be triggering a short piece of music by someone else and transposing it by pressing keys. Its not very creative at all. Its like people who only use presets for their instruments. To be creative you have to do your own sound design.

 

I prefer the composition by parts, since normally, what I want to compose is already minimally structured in my head. In this case, I would do accompaniments to follow a rhythm, and then chords, or vice versa.

 

 

I understand the need for a kind of chord sheet to use when composing, in which note entry could be sped up. I understand its nice to be able to hear chords first to get an rough idea for a progression before actually entering the notes into the pattern editor. That kind of tool would be more useful if it excluded the chords containing notes that were out of key.

 

It is possible to build a tool to sound all the chords before recording, as a first step. You can write them in the pattern editor in a second step. If there is something that is not to your liking, it is possible to easily remove the note column that contains it in a third step. The best thing that I see here is a tool capable of showing you the chords, the notes that make it up and that can be heard beforehand. In addition to being compatible with MIDI Input.

 

 

However, the whole time what renoised has been pitching is basically like a casio keyboard demo button. Playback 'bossa nova' style demo, transpose it with a keypress. Its not all that exiting or useful. I doubt anyone will seriously write an "accompaniment" with "fills" in all the different styles just so they can be played back and transposed with keypresses.

 

This is the main problem, which creates all the styles, accompaniments and so on, it is a lot of repetitive and tedious work. It is not the hardest thing to build in a tool, but it is the most boring and repetitive. Too much work. I prefer more practical tools, and compose without using things already built. The chords could be an exception, or even some rhythms taken from random functions (you press a button and the notes appear randomly, being able to repeat the operation a thousand times waiting for something to sound good).

 

...

 

Maybe its not that relevant in the context of this thread but something that would be more useful for live usage of renoise in my opinion would be assigning instrument changes to midi controller pads, buttons or keys to change instrument instantly during a live set, without using alt+up / down or reaching for the mouse. Just to be able to hit a key or pad to change directly to the instrument I want in a live setting without scrolling through the instrument list. For example, mid way through playing a drumbeat live I could strike a "change to instrument 9" pad to change to another kit based on completely different breaks samples.

 

This is exactly what I implemented today in my VPDpro tool. This tool has a virtual piano. Now it is able to change the instrument since the tool, and also change the track since the tool, without matching the Renoise selection in both cases. As they are elements built with Viewbuilder (buttons, valueboxes), it is possible to control them using MIDI Input, which has the capacity to "pressed" and "released". So yes, this is perfectly feasible, and easy to program, even easier to program if you use OSC Server to play the notes and write them. Unfortunately, VPDpro was not initially intended for this purpose. So the virtual piano, which controls 120 notes, is not programmed for MIDI input, it only works with the mouse.

 

As I said before, an extreme case would be to write a tool with 2 panels, to be able to control 2 instruments and 2 tracks separately. With a single MIDI pad it would be possible to map it in 2 parts, or even use 2 MIDI peripherals to control the tool with double panel (this case I am not very sure).

 

The only thing that should be tried is to maintain visual control of the tracks that you are controlling at the same time. Regarding the control of 2 instrument slots, it would be possible to memorize it. A possible tool could have two twin panels, one "master" and one "custom". The master corresponds to the selection of Renoise, for the instrument and for the track. The other customized, corresponds to a different selection of instrument and track. The reason for having a master panel is to not lose the focus of at least one track. However, this master panel could also function as a custom, to change track and instrument from the tool. Possibly it would be a tremendously useful tool for live recording.

 

However, this issue distorts this topic about RAS. Here there is nothing automatic, but simply a tool is offered to have more control, control by double entry. In addition, this could be further developed. It would be possible to create a tool to control not 2, but 4 instruments and 4 tracks at the same time, for live recording by touching at least 2 people directly with Renoise and this bridge tool. While the computer was able to support it ...


:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 26 September 2017):

Spoiler

#320 lettuce

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 22:23

edit : deleted


Edited by lettuce, 16 January 2018 - 04:19.


#321 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 23:37

 

...

Will your VdPro tool really allow me to change instrument with a single keypress or pad strike? That would be extemely useful for me ( as an instant drumbank changer for live use with my drumpads ). I can not assign instrument changes like 'change to instrument 9' to a pad or key press with standard renoise.

...

 

Hi Garrett. Look here: http://forum.renoise...ns/#entry364310

 

With the vertical piano you can change the instrument and the destination track, but here VPDpro is only configured to have control with the mouse.  But, a level of programming, instead of using a valuebox to change the values, it is possible to use a slider, or two buttons, whichever you want. Any control of this type accepts midi_maping. However, there is an important limitation with midi_maping. The input resolution is 128 values. So in a wheel or a slider you could only control 128 instruments or 128 tracks. Regarding the instrument, 2 wheels, A (0-128) and B (129-255) could be used. But this is not very practical. The simplest thing would be to configure 2 buttons with repetition in the pulsation and then you break all the limits.

 

Ok, considering that the controls are only buttons, and a screen that shows you the value, it would be possible to convert this vertical piano into a 2 octave pad. This could make up a panel. Then build another panel that contains another pad of 2 octaves. Or even 3 octaves. Then, I would have an octave change control in 3 or 4 steps. With all that it is possible to control 2 instruments and 2 different tracks through MIDI Input and using OSC Server, with all the virtues and defects that are in this list (list below): http://forum.renoise...ns/#entry364310

 

Here is a MIDI controller design that would be ideal (the design, not the quality or brand): http://forum.renoise...io/#entry364257 With a controller like this you could easily control 2 instruments. But it would also be possible to use a combination of MIDI peripherals, a MIDI keyboard and a small MIDI pad. I still have not built a thing, which is the control of button lighting through midi_imput, which is a subject that interests me a lot. If possible, the tool would interact with the MIDI peripheral. And all this is starting to be a serious and useful tool.

 

I am building my tools for the pleasure of learning, the pleasure of building and the challenge of wanting to build something that I do not know initially. It's a strange feeling that I did not enjoy with other DAWs. LUA and the dispinible API is wonderful, although some things need to be polished. Where others see obstacles, I see challenges. But at the same time there is no support. This is abandoned. So you have to resign yourself, and remember it.

 

Any tool is useful if the person who manages it feels comfortable. Actually, it does not matter what. But it is very difficult to achieve that, because your hands are tied. You depend on a host. It is not possible to build anything, there are limitations.

 

In short, it is possible to build a GUI with Viewbulider and certain pieces of elegance, simple and manageable that practically only contain buttons (with midi_maping, pressed, released, notifier) and OSC Server. You could control the tool from the mouse or from MIDI Input, and be able to control Renoise with its keyboard commands, and take advantage of MIDI Input to control the tool, keeping selected any Renoise window, not the tool. This is magnificent.


:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 26 September 2017):

Spoiler

#322 lettuce

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 04:23

edit : deleted


Edited by lettuce, 16 January 2018 - 04:19.


#323 Renoised

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 22:05

Just so you know, after seeing Joule's update on Waveform, it looks as if they have the right idea about this stuff.
Waveform now has a Chord Track, just like Cubase has a Chord Track.

However, neither of them have reached the level of enjoyment and productivity the "RAS" concept was designed to provide ... YET  <_<


 



#324 lettuce

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 00:10

edit : deleted


Edited by lettuce, 16 January 2018 - 04:19.

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#325 Renoised

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 03:30

RAS "conceptual design" is wack as phuck yo.

You just a cubase and Casio fanboi.


Iz no true, Wangboi <_<