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RAS - Renoise Accompaniment System


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#326 lettuce

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 05:04

edit : deleted


Edited by lettuce, 16 January 2018 - 04:19.


#327 joule

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 10:34

Edit: Deleted


Edited by joule, 10 January 2018 - 16:29.


#328 danoise

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 12:54

I've made a tool that I call "phrase voicer" that I'll be test driving 

 

Make one of those wonderful teaser videos, please?  :D


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#329 Renoised

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 14:13

@Wangboi
Bit much when I get accused of "waffling" when the waffling is due to your own wacko troll posts <_<


@Joule, "Sales Pitch" for you here.  The 'R' in RAS stands for Renoise.  It was designed from the outset to work hand-in-hand with the tracker environment.  Every track of every phrase of every accompaniment is made the same 'tracker way' things have always been done in Renoise.  The trick is to implement it correctly, and I'm afraid you cannot do that without "obsessing" over GUI and workflow.

There'll always be trolls like Wangboi and his followers, people who develop a hatred for something out of some wacko 'idea jealousy' thing that goes on inside their primitive little minds.  If you're in agreement with Wangboi's train of thought, then please vacate the thread along with your tools, cause unless what you're demonstrating in this thread is designed to form at least part of RAS, and can be implemented the RAS way, then there's no point in posting it here (this is the RAS thread).  Believe it or not, being asked to stop posting non-RAS tools in here won't make or break the project.  It just means it was never going to happen in the first place, and as I've already pointed out, that's fine with me, there's always Cubase with it's Chord Track and Chord Pad system for when I want to actually write 'music'.


@danoise, I'd love to see Phrase Voicer too, but from now on I think tools that are not intended to be part of RAS should be given their own thread, just like Raul does with his.  If Phrase Voicer would form part of RAS, that's awesome, and he should post it here, but from the sounds of it Joule has very different ideas of implementation to that of the RAS concept.  I'd rather not see RAS at all than see it badly implemented, or implemented in a way that doesn't achive it's original concept goal of being immediate and obvious to use, even for a complete noob with no Renoise or Music Theory background.

The RAS concept addresses all of that, so anything less would not be RAS.



#330 joule

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 14:28

Edit: Deleted


Edited by joule, 10 January 2018 - 16:29.


#331 Renoised

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 16:21

Joule, man, get over yourself for a moment will you.  Me not being a programmer has nothing to do with skills of understanding good design and workflow.  I can wipe the floor with you in that area.  I respect your skills as a coder with the added benefit of you having respectable design skills, but design is not something you're in a position to advise me about.  You failed even to realise the importance of it needing to be phrase-based early on.  I can just as easily return your comment by pointing out that, quite frankly, people's inability to grasp the concept of RAS correctly, is astounding, in fact it's beyond that.

I'll not "back off" my own thread, either.  This thread is about "RAS" which is what I'm trying to remind people of.  I couldn't care less about who's idea any of it is.  I thought that sort of thing was strictly the domain of Wangboi and Primary School kids.  I penned the idea of "RAS" as in having an accessible full-blown accompaniment system linked to chords inside Renoise, but I really couldn't care less who did, or who first thought about putting a chord or accompaniment system into Renoise - you're starting to sound as pedantic as Wangboi does - what does it matter?

Christ, do people behave like this in the professional world?
Would stand to reason the fucking mess it's in right now :blink:

As for me not being the person who dictates what sort of features such a tool as RAS should have.  Wrong, I'm the only person who should dictate the sort of tools RAS should have, because I'm the one who penned the concept in the first place - I'm the architect of it.  The way RAS was penned from the start is the best way to implement it, which is why it was penned that way from the start.  I know what I'm talking about in that respect even if people here don't think so.

You're here in the "RAS" thread, hopefully to help make RAS happen, not to advise me in the area of design and implementation of it.  Your own role is basically that of coder grease-monkey, so if something pointed out in the concept is not within your ability due to skill or technical limitation, then you can't help it happen anyway.  The only person with the ability to give you RAS in a better way than was originally designed, is Taktik.  He clearly understands design and workflow in a deep way, but he's not here, hasn't said a thing about it, and probably has no interest in RAS anyway.  So my suggestion is that we stop the trolling, stop talking about what RAS should be, stop trying to change the design concept of RAS, and start developing a 'faithful-to-concept' product instead.  In short, either be preapred to take design and workflow advice from the architect, or find another building to work on.
 

Everything that goes against RAS is just pointless bullshit and noise, the concept is already fine in all respects, so let's build it if possible to do so.

 


Edited by Renoised, 10 January 2018 - 16:24.


#332 joule

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 16:35

Maybe you haven't understood it, but I have explained in detail and shown with mock-ups how to solve the main technical parts of one possible implementation that would actually work. Still, you try to act as some kind of gatekeeper and derail the subject into insignificant details that you personally feel are very important. Those details should currently be totally unimportant to focus on.

 

Out of respect for your thread and ideas, I have deleted my previous posts.


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#333 Renoised

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 18:17

Yes I have understood it, but you clearly haven't, cause the idea of this thread is to bring the RAS concept to life, not change it!

The relentless trolling of this thread by Wangboi has to stop.  I appreciate everything you have done, same with Raul, same with anyone who might even be working behind the scenes on something.  If any of it helps to bring RAS to life, it will benefit all of us as well as Renoise itself.  But that cannot come through compromise of the main goal.  If a noob cannot fire-up Renoise for the first time, and without any music theory whatsoever, do what RAS promises them to be able to do, then it has failed.

The conceptual design of RAS does not fail in those vital areas, so must be adhered to unless there's a better way, and I'm afraid we ain't getting a better way unless Taktik designed and implemented it.

 



#334 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 18:39

:blink:  :blink:  :blink: What happened here?

 

I was going to write a couple of paragraphs but I prefer not to enter the discussion. I get the feeling that this thread is going to die this week. It's a shame...


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:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

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#335 danoise

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 18:51

The conceptual design of RAS does not fail in those vital areas, so must be adhered to unless there's a better way

 

But not a different way? 

 

I think the community has shown a lot of input and support here, and joule in particular has been very constructive.

So I for one can understand his decision, however regrettable it is. 

 

The thing is, Renoised, you'll only see a feature like RAS arise from 1000s upon 1000s of lines of code. The only way you can guarantee that it's going to satisfy your particular needs, is that you make it happen yourself. And - wait!! - I know, this is a really shitty thing to say. You have been trying to make it happen. But not everybody agrees in your approach. 

So, ... if you're not willing to compromise on your vision, and unless you have the funds to commission someone to do the work, then this is just how the world works. 

 

I still think something like RAS could be a wonderful thing to have, but it might take on a different form that you'd originally imagined.


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#336 Renoised

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Posted 10 January 2018 - 19:53

@Raul, What happened is that trolling, as is often the case on forums, has won out.  We live in a world where the population has been poisoned by the social media wankers, who it seems have managed to brainwash almost everyone into that brian-dead Facebook, Twitter, and YouTube culture of acting dumb for "Likes".  And I took issue with being told by Joule that I'm not fit to make design decisions, and him going-on about who's idea RAS was, I mean what the fuck does it matter who's idea RAS was?

The no-compromise, noob-proof design of RAS was actually my idea, so that's that one sorted then.  Not that it matters of course, but just thought I'd clarify the situation in case it became another pointlessly on-going discussion, and someone wanted to steal my idea - and no one is stealing RAS <_<


@Danoise, I hear you, but as I've said before, I already reached the conclusion we're not going to see RAS anyway.  Anything that improves upon the lack of Chords and Accompaniment in Renoise would be very welcome as far as I'm concerned, but unless it fulfills the design goal of RAS, then it's not RAS and cannot be referred to as such.  RAS is designed to be a no-compromise, noob-proof, but professional integrated accompaniment system.  Me, I have Cubase and have no intention of even attempting to develop RAS myself.  I have the deepest repsect for anyone and everyone who helps to make it happen, but the way this thread is going, it's just too much egotistical bullshit and trolling to have to contend with, and it's gotten so relentless it's happening almost every day now.



 


Edited by Renoised, 10 January 2018 - 20:19.


#337 lettuce

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 02:46

edit : deleted


Edited by lettuce, 16 January 2018 - 04:20.


#338 joule

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 08:49

At the core, This was a display of a really counter productive behavior, but also something to learn from.

 

Once things started moving forward, fear was created from lack of understanding and lack of control. Appearantly, this was motivation enough for trying to shut down everything.

 

If you look at it deeper, I think it's also an issue of attachment. If you toy with an idea, you're always at the risk of eventually getting more and more attached to emotions created from fantazising about it. This can make you even more rigid and fearful of losing access to those emotions.

 

Short story: always keep your curiousity and don't invest too much prestige. This applies to any creative process.


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#339 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 10:48

@Renoised. I feel like you feel frustrated. You understands several things. You yourself have been responsible for creating this little unpleasant atmosphere almost from the beginning of the thread, and not only in this thread. When you and I started talking in these forums we already had a touch. Remember? You also discharge too much against the Sr. Wang and this man is possibly the one who has contributed most in this thread of all of us here, simply disagree with your idea of your theoretical RAS.

 

You also made fun of the hat of the photo that Joule uses on his profile. Why are you making those comments? I have followed this thread from the beginning. I know very well everything that has happened here. And there's been a lot of interesting material. It has been a very interesting thread. And yes, they also talk about other things that are not RAS. And nothing happens. And yes, also comments that are left over, also from you. These are not social networks, they are simply Renoise forums. Nobody tells stories about their personal lives or shares photos with a beer in their hand.

 

I think you feel a deep helplessness for wanting something that does not exist, and as you are realizing that it will not be possible, you try to blame it on others. You always have an answer for others. But sometimes it's better to shut up and focus on what's important. I also believe, honestly, that some words are being transcribed. Not everything is what it seems.

 
I have already spoken to Mr. Wang several times and this man is not unpleasant. Moreover, you can still learn things from him. 
 
I have known Joule on the forums for months, and honestly, he is one of the best members of the entire community. Not because of his extensive knowledge as a programmer and designer, which is much better than many of us, but by his own person. I deeply doubt that he wanted to appropriate your idea of RAS. That is simply absurd! He does not need a RAS, nor does he have the need to prove anything.
 
Please, do not misunderstand anything, or feel bad. Stop seeing negative things and focus on the good. Here there is a lot of material, and it has been a pleasure to see the amount of things that can be done, and also the ones that can not.
 
I'm going to go a little deeper here. To design something, anyone can have an idea, but that idea is useless, if you do not know how to build it internally. This is sacred in the programming, and a newbie tells you. You wanted to get into something that is complex. If it's under the hood of Renoise, Taktik should modify Renoise to make your RAS possible. If your RAS is built in a tool, it is necessary to be very clear what limitations and capacities Renoise has (that of reading the manual and know how to handle it and all that) and also, at least have a bit of programming knowledge. Then you are in a position to defend a complex idea. But it is impossible. You ask for things that can be done together with things that can not be done. Someone who knows how to program could build a tool with those things that can be done, but do not ask for miracles.
 
---
 
After all this roll, I still think that a RAS similar to the idea of Renoised is possible with a tool. But my approach is different from others. I would use OSC Server and Routed Midi Input from the Viewbuilder (basically on buttons) to be able to play two instruments on two separate tracks, the first track for the chords. The second track to shoot phrases from a second instrument. The tool itself could transpose the notes of that second track instantly, without stopping, being able to make live recordings. The only problem is to create phrases with rhythms and others, to accompany, and that's a lot of work. But basically, it is possible to manipulate any information that is written in the pattern editor from a tool, even get ahead if there are patterns below. In addition, it would require at least a MIDI keyboard that includes pads to have two trigger areas, the piano keys themselves and the pads. From the MIDI input of the instrument editor, in MIDI tab, it is possible to route each instrument on separate tracks. You do not need more! It is possible to link a MIDI peripheral (up to 4) and also the "Renoise OSC Device". In fact, this approach is already possible with my VPDpro tool.
 
Joule has another focus. It's a shame that everything has been ruined!
 
And well, to break the ice. With Renoise you already have instant gratification. You write notes with an instrument in a column. Then you write in another column with another instrument. You press the play, and both instruments sound at the same time!  :D  You can do the same with phrases. And you can also have great control with the keyboard commands, for example to transpose what you want. Then, when you know all this, you realize that a RAS is not something so special. Learning to drive Renoise should already offer instant gratification. If you do not feel that, this is not your DAW... Luckily, you have Cubase. So everything is fine.

:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 26 September 2017):

Spoiler

#340 Renoised

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 14:35

@Joule, No, Mr.Philosopher, that's not it at all, and there's way too much philisophising going on in your reply.  There's no "fear" of anything.  I'm perfectly happy to admit I'm cluelsess about the technical stuff you peeps talk about, I've said so enough times.  You're stepping out of line when you assume I have no skills in the area of design and workflow, and that I shouldn't be dictating the features of something I thought up.  You need to give the ego a well-earned holiday.  As far as I'm concerned, the worst that can happen is it doesn't get built.  That would be unfortunate, but there's always Cubase, so believe me, it's not like 'Renoised' intends to slit his wrists if RAS doesn't happen.

You just wrote a load of philosophical bullshit in an attempt to hide the egotism displayed in the post you removed, and while I'm well aware it'll work on the majority of people here, it doesn't work on me.  You removed that previous post to hide your display of egotism and ignorance, not out of respect for the thread.


@Raul, Wangboi is a troll, one so blatant he couldn't be more obvious if he had green skin, lived under a bridge and wore a T-Shirt with "I LOVE TROLLS" written across it.  I'm up for a laugh as much as the next guy, but there's a difference between what this guy has been doing in this thread (and did much worse in another), and just having a laugh.  I'm not in the least bit bothered that he sees it as some sort of cheap keyboard accompaniment thing.  I don't take notice of him in a constructive sense anyway, I stopped doing that very early on, cause he's a blatant troll.  What does bother me is the relentless trolling and harassment he's practicing towards me on these forums.  His latest post is yet another blatant troll post (to those who can see these things).

Anyway, I'm not getting into philosophical discussions about this.  What's actually funny about all of this is that people think I'm a lot more bothered about this than I am.  I'm really not that bothered about it at all, I just wanted to see it in Renoise so that I could do everything inside Renoise, that's all.  I didn't mind spending my time in this thread when it was being productive, but clearly it's a waste of time now, and might as well be dropped.  I wanted to see RAS in Renoise, but not so much I'll put up with this level of bullshit and time-wasting in order to see it happen.

Any resistance towards RAS is ridiculous, it always was, cause as was pointed out, it just adds to the system, it's still done the 'Tracker' way.  Every track of every phrase of every accompaniment in the system is still '100% Tracker-based'.  I enjoy the tracker thing as much as everyone else here does, I've used trackers since I got an Amiga 500 back in the day, but the stuff those chord and accompaniment systems bring to the table is just too much to ignore when it comes to fleshing-out a song, especially for those of us with no music theory behind us (and that's the vast majority of us).  I'll just stick to Cubase, at least until someone releases a tool that dismisses the need for music theory in Renoise.

So yeah, to be able to design custom accompaniments using a tracker, and have it play back as an integrated system within that tracker by hitting chords, is something I really want to see.  But either way, I'm out of the discussion now (for real this time) cause I literally cannot bear the egotism going on in here, it's ridiculous, first from Wangboi and now from Joule (which really surprised me).  It's clear I'd be banging my head against a brick wall if I spent any more time writing replies in this thread.  Honestly, after all this bullshit, I'd rather spend time concentrating on building my sampler, and at least I do have control over that - so that's what I'll do.

 


Edited by Renoised, 11 January 2018 - 14:38.


#341 joule

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 14:47

"Conflict mode" engaged ^_^



#342 Renoised

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 15:36

Hi,

You have reached Renoised's incredibly sexy electronic female secretary.

We regret to inform you that Renoised has requested that all further reponses to the RAS project are to be discarded.
We appreciate your understanding in the matter.

From all here at Renoised Corporation,
Have a nice day.


 



#343 afta8

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 17:21

.


Edited by afta8, 18 January 2018 - 13:00.


#344 Renoised

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 17:40

Hi,

You have reached Renoised's incredibly sexy electronic female secretary.

We regret to inform you that Renoised has requested that all further reponses to the RAS project are to be discarded.
We appreciate your understanding in the matter.

From all here at Renoised Corporation,
Have a nice day.



 



#345 encryptedmind

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Posted 11 January 2018 - 21:39

@Danoise: Realistically speaking do you think it's feasible with the current XStream API and your personal time, to code a model specifically for inserting user input midi data (last in first out, stack structure, just pop the last midi note(s) data in the buffer) inside the pattern editor for a prechosen polyphonic(chords)/monophonic(bass) instrument track when a pre-programmed sequence is playing by checking their line numbers and replacing the note names with user midi notes optimised for live use?

This will effectively be the style maker which I described in an earlier post here.You mentioned some months back that you are working a new update for the XStream API, and you mentioned in your post to @Renoised about managing funds, so I propose to fund the development of this model from my end to you and anyone else who is willing to join me, of course only if you wish to accept! No pressure and no rush. What I aim to achieve with this action is:

1) It will be a good precedence for communication between tool developer and end user or 'tool feature sponsor' that facilitates exchange of money or incentives, if as far as I know has not been done in the Lua tool forums yet. This should encourage others to implement this model of exchanging incentives for features or tools.

2) I get to use XStream more and incorporate the style maker feature which will also work as a functioning RAS to begin with and thus kick starting something tangible.

I personally see this as a win win situation. If you provide a tentative deadline and a price quote based on man hours needed by you I would be glad to take it forward.


@Renoised: I can certainly appreciate your vision and enthusiasm and I also understand your point of view, but sometimes in between your posts I get the feeling that writers block is forcing you to be a little desperate to use a tool which can help you get out of it, which is not always the best manner of do things. I don't think it's anything big or particularly anything wrong with you but a healthy daily routine change might be the perfect kicker in these circumstances. Everyone needs a vacation once a while.

Eveyone has chipped in with their version of support providing their personal overviews and tool demos from their perspective while still trying to incorporate your ideas. You have to be patient and do your own thing in the mean time. I also see a lot of NO's from you in the sense you don't want to learn an instrument or use your QY700 specially when things are rougher like now or learn music theory and read books and get inspired in general. I think the music has to come from you and not some abstraction layer like a GUI chord pad that hides the analytical process of choosing chords and that you can randomly click any pad to somehow land on a good sounding chord progression..aleatoric composition. Renoise's tracker interface is the primary arena to flex your muscles and even if music theory looks like an alien script it's still the most innovative thing out there that will open your mind and spirit.

Ask any musician worth their salt and they practice daily, their instrument, the theory, composition, technique everything..and it's all done in bits and pieces. I am sure there are many in this forum who can play either piano or guitar with a good degree of proficiency. I play piano and guitar with enough facility
to get my ideas out and build them. I practice every single day and of I never miss it: start with just 1 min in your mind, once you warm up your fingers and mind is already engaged, do it for just 5 min more, automatically you will lose track of time until you are truly exhausted for that particular session. This ensures my 4 hour daily routines personally speaking, and I feel it's way less than it should be but then important thing is that I get it done everyday without fail, this ensures a sense of discipline and organization. Find an instrument that inspires you or interests you and bang away. Buy one if required and play with it daily.

I very highly recommend watching Rick Beato's YouTube videos and his explanations are very well down and cover a wide variety of techniques and topics, any musician can value from his long experience(his white hair says it all!).

Physical excercise is also recommended. So are things like a very healthy diet consisting of veggies and no sugar and no carbs like white bread or flour based products and no sodas and canned food and most definitely no beer or alcohol. I recommend Dr. Eric Berg's YouTube videos for his unique take on outstanding diet and nutrition advice and detailed guides and online seminars. It is very very possible that it's some health related stuff which might be giving you the less of what you actually have the potential for.

Btw underground culture has stark similarities between them and in the hacking and cracking scene 97 percent of tools are all homegrown with either a singular person or dedicated small teams of programmers making tools and releasing it for free. For the programmers the pleasure is in solving technical challenges and then releasing them for free withing their circles. It's always like a badge of achievement, nothing money related. The money these guys make nowadays comes form carding, information selling, malware and so on..but still their dev related efforts were originally for a very long time achivement oriented and not financially motivated. Times are changing though and for now money is a necessary poison without which withdrawal symptoms begin to happen in society and in one's personal sphere of things. OllyDbg 1.10 is THE widest used Windows usermode debugger in the cracking and reverse engineering scene for a long time now and it's free. Countless money and warez has been made with it, innumerable malwares have been analysed with it and no one pays royalties to Oleh Yuskchuk for his outstanding work. On the other hand IDA Pro is a exceptional reverse engineering product and costs DA BOMB with its decompiler HexRays licence fee going upto 1500 dollars last time I checked. It's expensive business even for security companies and is considered industry standard much like we have Protools. But to make a point a large section of utilities and plugins and tools are out there for anyone to learn and use and it came out of people who were engaged with this craft not outside of it. The same ethic remains when you start making internal tools to suit your tasks and you write scripts to automate as much as possible. It's always a work in progress. You have to be into all this..and it's all related, you read a book on Kernel internals and use a particular flag value next time in your script and then next day you get a piece of useful info from an AI project paper and you incorporate that in your program, your colleague discovers a nice trick in the debugger and shares it with you and so on...it's a collaborative process and you are always learning.

Let me ask you this question, have you read books by Gareth Loy, Musimathics? Or say Audio Programming Book by Richard Boulanger ? Just whet your appetite for more knowledge and if technical stuff bores you then go musical! So many books to read and learn from. Visit concerts and shows in your town..

What I am thinking to say is that RAS,and I hate that name, won't be a game changer but rather another device or tool to work with. I can only imagine if you will get disappointed when RAS gets done and you still cannot write a song, what then?

Re(noise), Re(dux), RAS can be changed to Re(spira) to instill a breathe of fresh air in your productions. :)

Regarding trolls or not I don't think Wangboi's comments are offensive in anyway and overreacting can be counter productive as you can see. If you want to be like Steve Jobs (man with the vision, no doubt) and tell the technical guys what to do it's all kool but in the process even if RAS gets done you might end up making everyone cross (no one liked Steve's methods! even if his results and direction were awesome):0 So just have fun for now and chill. Good things are yet to come.

Edited by encryptedmind, 11 January 2018 - 21:52.

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encryptedmind

Victor Marak

 

uZIK|mAInD|Z0FTwA-RE


#346 Renoised

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 02:01

You know what, Vic, my good man, I might actually take your's and Raul's advice and learn to program (seriously), cause I've had ideas in that area for quite some years now.
It has to be better than wasting valuable time listening to this shit, trolls like Wangboi  <_< 

So that programming thing, I'm on to it mate.  I'll start by learning to program good honest hardware as opposed to the NSA-friendly hardware you have inside your computer right now.  I'll master BASIC first, then I'll jump right into machine code.  But unlike Steve Jobs, I'll develop super-basic, super-solid computer systems for the masses, all based on super-simple, super-efficient custom-designed processors  - all open to inspection - no hidden nasties.  A system with a fixed but adequate audio and graphics resolution is all that is required for success.  It will require a whole new future-proof design of physical media too, of course, one you'll never need to worry about going out of date.  That ought to deal with the corporate wanks and their attempts to destroy physical media, and to DRM everything you fucking see, hear, and own.

You see, Vic, the 80s demonstrated the good life by the bus-load, and I'm going in that direction with the intention of bringing it back to the masses.  I'm sure to achieve great satisfaction in bringing that life and freedom to the younger generation, a generation who have so far only experienced life under abuse and restraint from the tech giants (poor bastards).  I mean, does anyone ever think of the kids, our future?
 

Recognise what you see below, Vic? ... if not, just think of it as the beginning of the salvation of humanity!
It's something you'll understand if you understood the hidden message in my response ;)



      **** COMMODORE 64 BASIC V2 ****
64K RAM SYSTEM  38911 BASIC BYTES FREE

 

READY.



... I'm not living on veggies though, that just ain't gonna happen :o :D






 


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#347 lettuce

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 06:23

edit : deleted


Edited by lettuce, 16 January 2018 - 04:20.


#348 4Tey

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 10:37

      **** COMMODORE 64 BASIC V2 ****

 

64K RAM SYSTEM  38911 BASIC BYTES FREE

 

READY.

 

If you start talking about the C64 and learning assembly/basic language on the computer, I may just start actually reading this thread :)



#349 danoise

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 12:59

it's feasible with the current XStream API and your personal time, to code a model specifically for inserting user input midi data (last in first out, stack structure, just pop the last midi note(s) data in the buffer) inside the pattern editor for a prechosen polyphonic(chords)/monophonic(bass) instrument track when a pre-programmed sequence is playing by checking their line numbers and replacing the note names with user midi notes optimised for live use?

 

You almost lost me there. But yeah, this is simple to do in xStream. Check out the arpeggiator model, then imagine that it read notes from a phrase instead? 

 

Later, you also bring up an important point 
 

I can only imagine if you will get disappointed when RAS gets done and you still cannot write a song, what then?

 
Since 2010, I've "wasted time" creating a bunch of ambitious tools. Luckily, I think I'm able to see them for what they are: some are "functional", others have more of a creative, playful spirit to them. I've learned so much, and have been able to pass on this knowledge too. So no regrets there.  
But the potential for being disappointed is very real, and likely. You have that thing called buyers remorse, in which that shiny new gadget didn't make life so better as you thought. It's even harsher when it's developers remorse, because then you can feel you've wasted valuable time in your life too. 
It's really important to realize this. I tried to raise this point, and I think that's also what joule referred to as not becoming too attached to emotions emanating from the potential of the thing. The result will always be different anyway. 
 
But I would also like to defend a certain aspect of RAS that has been criticized; we've been throwing the "bossanova" term around here a lot. And most of us have probably played with cheesy auto-chord keyboards at some point in our lives. I guess the criticism arises from the fact that you'll use these anonymous, preset alike note patterns (and possibly, sounds) to write music with? 
But to me, "ownership of sound" is a very individual thing. For example, I once heard that Leonard Cohen liked to use such a keyboard for writing his songs. To him, they were just a starting point (and he probably wasn't a classically trained musician ... I think he was mostly a poet/writer/singer).  
 
But since I'm an electronic musician I might not want to stop there - I'm not in the fortunate situation where I'm backed by a band which can help to translate my Casio sounds into a real arrangement.
Instead, I would want to completely own those "styles", and be able to edit and update them in any way that Renoise allows. In other words: the rabbit hole goes deeeeeep.


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#350 Renoised

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 15:14

@Wangboi, I'm not intimidated by that thing, looks as limp as Joule's hat these days ^_^

@4Tey, When I looked into learning to program a few years ago, I got to evaluating what language I should learn and rapidly came to the conclusion that Machine Code is my best option, so I'll likely just jump right into Machine Code.  Machine Code is basically the raw language of the hardware itself, so programming in Machine Code basically makes you a hardware god.  You get to bypass OS's and everything else, you get to do things your own way and completely avoid any bad, inefficient decisions made by others.  What's extra cool about Machine Code is that the language itself is easy to learn as there's so few commands, and once understood, it should come as second nature no matter what piece of hardware needed programming.

I know Machine Code is as low-level as it gets, so there's more work to do the simplest thing, but what fascinates me about it is being able to command the hardware directly.  That aspect is very attractive to me due to my interested in electronics.  I'd much rather have complete control of the hardware so that I can write audio and video systems that work on a pure string of raw data, no codecs required, cause that's the way they should work.  Such delights are the domain of anyone who learns to program in Machine Code, so I'm very interested in that aspect of it all.

It's a fact, the lower-level you get, the more you can do.  Here's a recent video from a guy who continues to push the Commodore 64 to it's limit, and he's not doing this on accelerated emulators either, he's doing this on real Commodore 64 hardware.  I have no idea what language he used, but he's definitely getting into the hardware at quite a low level to be able to do what he's doing - even I know that.  The demo starts out basic, and with each presentation he demos more and more impressive techniques.  He's now at the point where he's gotten 15,000Hz audio from the system, lol, and is able to get over two minutes of video and sound out of it.  It's fucking mindblowing, the machine is 8-Bit and 64K, and to think, we're looking at these images on razor-sharp displays, so can you imagine how amazing it would have been if demonstrated back in the 80s on a CRT display?

Jaws and knickers would literally have dropped!

 

Not sure what language he used, but if Machine Code wasn't involved, I can only imagine what he'd be able to make it do if he started using it.
Throughout the video he posts details about what's going on, it's all very cool stuff, definitely a cool read, watch, and listen!




 

But since I'm an electronic musician I might not want to stop there - I'm not in the fortunate situation where I'm backed by a band which can help to translate my Casio sounds into a real arrangement.

Instead, I would want to completely own those "styles", and be able to edit and update them in any way that Renoise allows. In other words: the rabbit hole goes deeeeeep. 


Yep, and thanks for the support, danoise.

I honestly have given-up giving a fuck though, mainly because I can't see it happening unless Taktik took it on due to you guys not having access to certain things you need.  If RAS cannot be integrated into the interface in the elegant manner suggested in the concept, then RAS as I personally envisaged cannot happen.  I accepted RAS ain't gonna happen a while back, and anything you coder peeps produce is going to be very welcome, as long as, at the very least, it allows the auditioning, sequencing, and input of chords without any need for music theory.

 


Edited by Renoised, 12 January 2018 - 16:01.