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RAS - Renoise Accompaniment System


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#351 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 15:21

You know what, Vic, my good man, I might actually take your's and Raul's advice and learn to program (seriously), cause I've had ideas in that area for quite some years now.
It has to be better than wasting valuable time listening to this shit, trolls like Wangboi  <_< 
...

 

I hope that, in the end, you decide to learn to program something, however small, but because you really love your ideas and want to feel able to do it. I hope that your brawling with Wang is not the cause.

 

Learning music theory, or learning music is attractive. Learning to program can also be attractive and satisfying. Let's go, you can do it. Seriously!  :D


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#352 realist

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 15:29

Well the demomaker guy obviously has no GF and never touched a woman. I also love assembler, it was pretty common to use it still even on Amiga. When they started to use C++ for programming games, you really can see a heavy performance drop on Amiga. Today CPUs are so fast and the system level so complex that assembler only makes sense for little parts in algorithms, e.g. DSP algorithms. Even there I am actually not sure anymore, if a modern c++ compiler can even reach pure assembler speed thanks to clever optimization.


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#353 4Tey

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 15:53

Not sure what language he used, but if Machine Code wasn't involved, I can only imagine what he'd be able to make it do if he started using it.

I think you'll find that the clever demo algorithms are written in optimized 6510 assembly language (on the C64) Renoised (or what you call Machine Code, which is the raw output of an assembler for the CPU to execute) to try and obtain maximum efficiency from the 985KHz (PAL machine) clocked CPU.  The Amiga was/is a better designed machine though IMO.

 

 



#354 Renoised

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 18:26

@Raul, Just to be clear, I have no interest in programming stuff for use on any OS, I'm strictly only interested in directly programming hardware.  For example, I would much rather Machine Code a sequencer that runs on, say, an Atmel chip, than something like C to run within an OS.  I want rid of absolutely everything that is not part of the product, no bloat, non nonsense.

 

Regards Wangboi, no, it's not because of him, but I think he's showing me far too much attention!


@guest_ffx, But isn't it an accepted thing in the 'Demo Scene' to use women as a focal point in the demos? :D
 

With 8-Bit, the smoother and more realistic you can make the skin tones, the better, so women showing a lot of skin are actually a great way to demonstrate the new video modes these coders develop, and that "Turn Disk" animation he showed to demonstrate an algorithm at 3:16 was certainly smooth and novel!  Thanks for the heads-up on the code thing, that's what I mean about efficiency, it's not as if high level languages are a good choice for performance, so I'd much rather go low level if I'm to get into this stuff.


@4Tey, There's something incredibly sexy about Machine Code even though I've not started learning it yet.  I like the way its all in Binary 1s an 0s, and that all you need to do in order to directly command a peice of hardware, is to grab the spec sheet for the hardware and feed it the relevant Binary commands.  I love the purity of it, and the thought of being able to program a chip directly in order to create a product that doesn't require an OS, is just too tempting to ignore.  Regards the Amiga, sure, better machine than the Commodore 64, but it was meant to be, it was the same company's more expensive model.  The way I always saw it was no matter whether you go for an 8-Bit Commodore 64 or a 16-Bit Commodore Amiga, the thing they both have in common is they're both 'Commodore' machines, and I always felt Commodore were notably better than their rivals.

It's a very personal thing among fanboys (and fangirls) though, I'm well aware of that.

Anyway, seems as if coders here might still be interested in carrying on with the RAS project, so best of luck to whoever that might involve.  It would be direspectful to allow the thread to deviate into something completely different, so hopefully the trolling will stop and things can get back on track.  I'll just keep my mouth shut from now on, cause actually, there's no point me opening it as I've already pointed out clear enough what RAS is and how it should be implemented.  The reality is I have no control over anything, so no point me trying, might as well just see how it goes.

 


Edited by Renoised, 12 January 2018 - 18:28.


#355 Renoised

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 21:06

Hey, I just checked-out "Garrett Wang" after seeing his recent avatar, I knew I'd seen that face before, and it turns out I have, he's the dude from Star-Trek Voyager - WTF :D

Hey Garrett, I hope you're really him otherwise he might take issue with you if he knew you were trolling under his name and avatar!
It's kinda funny really cause it's generally non-celebs who go around harassing celebs :lol:

Now if you'd been that actress who's in the same program as you, the one with an epic body - then I wouldn't have a problem at all!


 


Edited by Renoised, 12 January 2018 - 21:10.


#356 Renoised

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 22:05

I just noticed Joule has deleted all his posts, so it looks as if the RAS project is a man down.
Damn it, Joule, whatever will we do without you?*

*sarcasm

 


Edited by Renoised, 12 January 2018 - 22:05.


#357 Renoised

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 23:45


Well, in case anyone's curious, I've decided to learn Assembly Language, and after watching the first 14 minutes of this video I've decided this is the dude who's gonna teach me.
If he's as good at teaching this stuff as he was at promoting it during the first 14 minutes of that video (which is all I've watched so far), it could indeed be fun:

Assembler, here I come :D




 



#358 realist

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Posted 12 January 2018 - 23:55

So this is about programming chords using assembler?


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#359 Renoised

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 01:18

No, just pointing out which language I'd decided to learn, although watching it a bit further, after something he said, I'm already leaning back towards my initial decision to learn Machine Code.  I'll watch a few episodes on each language before making the decision, but it I'm pretty sure I'll settle on pure Machine Code in the end.

Basically Raul and Vic have persuaded me to give programming a priority, but I'm not learning the sort of stuff they were no doubt expecting me to learn.  I'm learning it strictly for the god-like power it would give me over building my own electronic devices.  I basically want absolute control over any microcontroller I choose to use in my own product designs.  Once I get satisfaction from that Sampling Arduino project Bellows linked to in the other thread, I'll make a start learning Machine Code as a next step.

See what I mean?  I don't think I even need to see further videos to help me decide, it will have to be Machine Code.  I think if I decided on Assembler, I'd constantly be reminding myself how close I was to the bare metal, but not quite there.  And not only that, I think that after the initial hurdle of getting the basics of Machine Code down, Machine Code would even be easier for me to master than Assembler.  Without even knowing how to use either of those languages, there's just something about Machine Code that I prefer, it was the same the first time I looked into this stuff a few years back.  It's like the guy said in the video in so many words; Machine Code is a pure, what you see is what you get affair, a completely blank slate that does exactly what you tell it using ones and zeroes.  That's all it understands, all it cares about, it's completely at your mercy to make it behave however you wish, as long as it's within the physical limits of the chip.

In other words, absolute power B)

 


Edited by Renoised, 13 January 2018 - 01:20.


#360 lettuce

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 02:44

edit : deleted


Edited by lettuce, 16 January 2018 - 04:20.


#361 radian

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 02:50

Lol

#362 Renoised

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 03:17

Well sexy as that little CASIO device is, you are still a troll, and you being famous'n'shit doesn't give you trolling priviledges ^_^
Stop following me, go find one of those clip-ons to chase!

If you troll me again I'll report you to Captain Safeway!

 


Edited by Renoised, 13 January 2018 - 14:08.


#363 danoise

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 14:19

08a6e834396fb37dc448b175925508bc--retro-

 

What IS that thing? 

 

Edit: Reverse image search reveals, a CASIO KX-101 apparently. 

 

I found the weirdest demo video ever. I think the guy is trying to sell the unit or something

("yep, my good sir, all buttons are working ... just look here - click - click - and click ....turns on FM radio)"

 


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#364 Renoised

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Posted 13 January 2018 - 14:29

Philips made a weird one as well, the PMC100, a sort of cassette-based multi-track accompaniment keyboard thingy.
It was nowhere near as cool as that CASIO though!

 



#365 4Tey

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 09:12

I like the way its all in Binary 1s an 0s, and that all you need to do in order to directly command a peice of hardware, is to grab the spec sheet for the hardware and feed it the relevant Binary commands.  I love the purity of it, and the thought of being able to program a chip directly in order to create a product that doesn't require an OS, is just too tempting to ignore.

Sure, I can understand this.

 

I don't think I even need to see further videos to help me decide, it will have to be Machine Code.  I think if I decided on Assembler, I'd constantly be reminding myself how close I was to the bare metal, but not quite there.

I (if I recall correctly), had game cassettes for the C64 and sometimes some of those games on the back (or front) cover used to proclaim '100% machine code' or '100% machine code graphics' :)



#366 esaruoho

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 14:34

Have you guys discussed the Zyklus Midi Performance Sequencer in this thread yet? Too many pages to figure it out.


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#367 encryptedmind

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Posted 14 January 2018 - 20:38

You almost lost me there. But yeah, this is simple to do in xStream. Check out the arpeggiator model, then imagine that it read notes from a phrase instead?
....

But since I'm an electronic musician I might not want to stop there - I'm not in the fortunate situation where I'm backed by a band which can help to translate my Casio sounds into a real arrangement.
Instead, I would want to completely own those "styles", and be able to edit and update them in any way that Renoise allows. In other words: the rabbit hole goes deeeeeep.


@Danoise: Woah kool!! I am very glad you plan to do the model. The arp model in XStream works flawlessly and just as you pointed out, it can take take either the rhythmic data from a phrase or work right on the selected track itself. I think both modes should work just fine, as the source of note data should be flexible. A bypass switch would be really useful as I had mentioned earlier during production time and to switch between composing and jamming and recording. This model will be very useful in bringing that BIAB workflow into Renoise. Not sure if RAS is going to be this but it's serves my purpose very well. A chord pad done by either @Joule or @Raul can be incorporated to feed chord note batches later on for others to use this model as well if they prefer to.

Btw I assume you did not mention the quote out of decency and working pro bono but should you wish to change your mind please don't hesitate to PM your hour rates, I would be more than glad to compensate for your time. XStream is a very deep API tool and as such it really intrigued me with the timeline related features it provides. A lot of algorithmic production can be done just by using this. Loving it :)

I can understand your point of view about 'wasted time' but in reality the whole creative process of either art or science require one to experiment and sift out the best answers from the lot. Edison himself said that he got right answers after 1000 wrong ones which to him just meant ways NOT to make something, which puts him ahead of the curve in a knowledge scenario by gaining points from doing the inference and streamlining the quality control process. Even Da Vinci doodled a lot and that is how ideas come out and flesh out maybe not in that particular time or artwork but it works as a database of self created and captured ideas. You know when we as musicians get a good melody inspired or a chord progression the first thing we could do is record it on a device to capture that inspiration. Engineering after that is relatively way easier but capturing inspiration is the key, not intellectuallizing it. Thus what you end up with is a diary of ideas and thoughts that can be later used anywhere you see fit, but that rigour is almost a prerequisite for anything to come out at all. You never waste your time, rather you use it to learn something.

I am going to patiently wait for your model release and I would be glad to help in testing it too if you so prefer.

Happy days!

@Renoised: Best Wishes learning assembler, it's my favourite too:) X86 would probably help you better in terms of relevance and production but feel free to choose any, it's however very machine dependent and hence the choice you need to make. You could start with Visual Studio on Windows and use the _asm {} keyword and braces to insert asm code in the C source file and tun assembler directly from the IDE to test and build stuff and use C libraries too. It's way more convenient in terms of today's code frameworks. Visual Studio debugger is good too with visual breakpoints and conditional breakpoints and OllyDbg 1.10 will be awesome on the final binary, also Windbg can be used for industrial strength debugging with OS symbols and all that. Linux also has a very cool Dev framework to work with. However for Renoise, you can just learn Lua and start with the coding essentials..I am not sure why asm would be essential at this stage unless you already know it and are doing DSP code for a vst in C++. Lua pretty much does not support asm as far as I think becos it is all interpreted and managed code.

In my opinion don't be intimidated by this thread going to 14 pages or longer..this is not even close to a design or requirements document which is to be cleaned and documented from the ideas in the thread before we even get to software engineering the tool and choose a development model, as it is done in real life projects. Not to mention estimating the timeline and the budget too. But a thread can be taken a a board meeting chat log transcription out of which ideas are brainstormed and captured for further evaluation and the best ones are catalogued towards building the design document. The key is patience and having fun;)

Edited by encryptedmind, 14 January 2018 - 20:50.

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#368 Renoised

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 01:02

@4Tey, Yep, and not entirely sure about this but I think one of my favourite programs ever on the C64 has that printed in the manual somewhere, a program called SEUCK which is a Commodore 64 Game Maker program.  You can make commercial games with it that load just like you'd expect a commercial game to load - very cool!


@esaruoho, Not yet, but feel free to start one, looks like a neat piece of hardware  :)


 

@Vic, How's this for a classy piece of pokeing, it's a Commodore 64 program I just wrote called "Darkness"

10 POKE 646,16
20 POKE 53280,0
30 POKE 53281,0


If you don't have a Commodore 64, just download VICE the Commodore 64 Emulator, and try it out!
Just type that in line by line and you shall discover the reason for the name I gave it :D





 


Edited by Renoised, 15 January 2018 - 01:18.

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#369 4Tey

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 07:11

@4Tey, Yep, and not entirely sure about this but I think one of my favorite programs ever on the C64 has that printed in the manual somewhere...

 

...it's a Commodore 64 program I just wrote called "Darkness"
 

10 POKE 646,16
20 POKE 53280,0
30 POKE 53281,0

Ah, I wasn't just dreaming then Renoised.  Although it probably would've been more accurate for them to say 'programmed in 100% assembly language, assembled into 100% machine code'.  But I suppose it just doesn't have that same catchy ring :D

 

Naturally, with your 'darkness' program Renoised, you can rewrite it in a more 'C64 type in machine code way', something like:

10 FOR N=0 TO 11:READA:POKEN+49152,A:NEXT
20 DATA 169,0,141,134,2,141,32,208
30 DATA 141,33,208,96
40 SYS 49152


#370 realist

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Posted 15 January 2018 - 16:34

Get over a C64 and buy an Amiga!!


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#371 Renoised

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 01:40

@4Tey, I suppose technically, POKE is a kind of Machine Code cause the command is directly changing the data at the location specified.  I wish it was done that way officially, that would be dead easy to learn, and you have to admit, your version has almost twice the amount of text as mine did assumning it does the same thing.  I couldn't check cause it didn't work, it says there's a "SYNTAX ERROR  IN 10".

I've been watching some videos though, and I'm starting to realise that Assembler is directly attached to Machine Code in a way I didn't realise, so I still might learn Assembler.  I can see now that there's a difference between how something like C gets compiled to Machine Code, and Assembler which is a different thing cause it's directly interacting with it.  Assembly language is different in that it assembles the Machine Code from humanly readable commands whereas C goes through all sorts of stuff.  Anyway, even if I fucked-up with my understanding of it, I still know a lot more than I did the other day, so yep, I might still choose Assembler after all :lol:


@guest_ffx, I've had both, the C64 and whole bunch of Amigas.  I sold the Amiga (and possibly the C64) to quite a geeky friend of mine some years ago, he vowed never to sell, so at least it/they went to a good home.  I know for a fact I still have a Commodore 1085S Monitor, Commodore 1351 Mouse, and Commodore 1541-II Floppy Disk Drive.  The Commmodore 64 is the C model, or 'the pointy one' as I used to call it, but I can't remember whether I sold that to the same guy when I sold the Amiga.  I'd have to move a lot of boxes in the loft to get at it all and find out, I'll have to do that some time.  I really wish I hadn't sold the Amiga (and the C64 if I happen to have done that).  It would still be like new if I hadn't, cause all the rest of it still is, it's all boxed etc.  At least I hung-on to the software for both machines (and the Action Replay cartridges for them), so if I need to buy another Amiga and C64, I have a bunch of software already :lol:

Oh ... and I know I kept an accelerator/memory card I bought for the Amiga 1200, I definitely hung on to that.

Yeah *SIGH* I was very gutted when Commodore fucked-up and died.  I was forced to get a PC, damn it!   It was very depressing, even the thought of going from the Amiga to the PC depressed the shit out of me, and it's done so ever since.  Understandable I suppose, the 64 and Amiga are computers with their own custom chipsets, so the woefully inefficient, bloated pile of crap called the "PC" we have today, was never going to be as enjoyable and trouble-free as it was back in the 80s and 90s when Commodore ruled.  Just imagine how powerful the Amiga would be today if it were being developed by the Commodore of the 80s and 90s in the same manner it was done back then.

I'm getting wildly off-topic here, sorry about that.


 


Edited by Renoised, 16 January 2018 - 01:50.


#372 4Tey

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 05:52

I suppose technically, POKE is a kind of Machine Code cause the command is directly changing the data at the location specified.

Yep, poke changes the byte at a memory address.

 

and you have to admit, your version has almost twice the amount of text as mine did assuming it does the same thing.  I couldn't check cause it didn't work, it says there's a "SYNTAX ERROR  IN 10".

It does have twice (three times, four times?) the amount of complexity (there is a reason).  And it does work in line 10, I wouldn't post you syntax errors Renoised (if there is a syntax error, it's probably because you've typed the line incorrectly, or what you think is correct to what is printed here) :)

 

I've been watching some videos though, and I'm starting to realise that Assembler is directly attached to Machine Code in a way I didn't realise, so I still might learn Assembler.  I can see now that there's a difference between how something like C gets compiled to Machine Code, and Assembler which is a different thing cause it's directly interacting with it.  Assembly language is different in that it assembles the Machine Code from humanly readable commands whereas C goes through all sorts of stuff.  Anyway, even if I fucked-up with my understanding of it, I still know a lot more than I did the other day, so yep, I might still choose Assembler after all :lol:

If nothing else Renoised, at least I've made you realise that there is a one to one correspondence between assembly language and machine code :)

 

So why is this program...

10 FOR N=0 TO 11:READA:POKEN+49152,A:NEXT
20 DATA 169,0,141,134,2,141,32,208
30 DATA 141,33,208,96
40 SYS 49152

much different than just those 3 POKE's Renoised?  Well line 10 is just POKE'ing into memory, it's just taking the following DATA statement numbers and doing it in a FOR loop.  Why?  Simple.  Saves writing out 12 pokes manually :D  But why is the program still so complicated?  Well instead of just POKE'ing and changing memory locations manually Renoised, it pokes into memory (starting at address 49152) a machine code program for the CPU to execute.  The CPU program (those numbers in the DATA statements) gets the CPU to do the equivalent POKE'ing that you were doing.  Line 40 actually taps the C64 CPU on the shoulder and says 'hey, pssst, could you just stop executing basic for a moment and jump to location 49152 and start executing those 12 numbers I've put there.'

4TEY: Hey, psst could you start executing at address 49152?
CPU : Yeah, whatever, let me finish...right address 49152..
      what number is there?  169 you say, right, that's a load accumulator instruction,
      what number do you want me to load?..[cpu looks at the contents of the next address]..ah zero...
      what is the next instruction?..141..that's a store accumulator instruction..where
      do you want me to put the contents of my accumulator?...[cpu looks at the next 2
      addresses]..ah location 646....

and so on until that 96 number at the end of the last DATA statement (which means RTS, return from subroutine), so the CPU goes back to executing basic.

 

Ah, I'm not surprised that it is a touch more complicated than just 3 POKE statements :)

 

[Edit:]  Just to mention what the CPU program (the numbers in the DATA statements above) looks like in assembly source code for reference:

Addr    Opcode (in decimal)     6510 Instruction (assembly)
-----------------------------------------------------------
49152   169,0                   LDA #0
49154   141,134,2               STA 646
49157   141,32,208              STA 53280
49160   141,33,208              STA 53281
49163   96                      RTS

[Edit2:]  The d64 Vice disk image might be available here: Darkness.d64

Attach the disk image to drive 8 manually and type:

LOAD "*",8

c64darkness.png


Edited by 4Tey, 17 January 2018 - 08:32.

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#373 Renoised

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Posted 16 January 2018 - 21:14

Thanks a lot, 4Tey, not sure why the program didn't work, but it really was exactly how you typed it, I must have checked it over four times, so it's strange it didn't work.

Thanks a lot for that explanation, I could follow what was happening in a structural sense, and it was nice to be able to compare it to the Assembler version like that.  What I need to do to really get started with it, is find something that actually works for noobs completely new to Assembler.  Something that teaches you using tools that are visually very plain, uncomplicated.  It's like with learning anything technical, once you learn it you think to yourself, what a complete tit that tutor must have been, cause if he'd said "X", then I'd have understood it a lot quicker!

I need something like that, something that one such as yourself would look at and think, yeah, that tutor teaches in the same way I would teach myself.
Or we could start a dedicated thread in the Off Topic area of the forum, and you could teach me :D

BTW, peeps, I notice that after causing enough disruption to destroy the RAS project and thread, the troll has abandoned it, removed all his posts, and replaced his avatar with a vegetable.  As I was trying to tell peeps all along, the guy was a blatant troll.  The only reason he got away with it is because people have been poisoned so much by social media these days, his behaviour looks perfectly normal, humourous even.  Fact is, the bullshit he practiced in this thread, and the truly outragous bullshit he practiced in another on here, was bang out of line!

Visit YouTube and type "The Damaging Effect of Social Media" into the searchbox, and don't be surprised when you're met with ove 200,000 results on the subject.

 


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#374 joule

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 08:28

I actually think you were the one 'destroying the RAS project'.



#375 Renoised

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Posted 17 January 2018 - 11:18

Yeah I'm sure you do, it's something your egotistical rant the other day demonstrated without restraint.
I couldn't care less what you, or anyone else for that matter, "thinks".