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RAS - Renoise Accompaniment System


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#26 pat

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 15:39

This RAS thing is doable via tools. I think it would be a lot of work, but it's one of those things which would happen with tools and is unlikely to happen by continually writing epic posts about what Renoise developers "should" do.
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#27 Renoised

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 20:17

This RAS thing is doable via tools. I think it would be a lot of work, but it's one of those things which would happen with tools and is unlikely to happen by continually writing epic posts about what Renoise developers "should" do.

 

You know, that comical little title below your username might suggest a "Big Daddy Member", but in reality, I could have you tracked down and taught a lesson in respect within the hour.  Making wise-cracks at my expense isn't what I'd call a very good idea, so please don't do it again.  The problem with the internet is you have no idea who you're rubbing shoulders with most of the time.

 

Fsus4, Encryptedmind, I do thank you for your time and effort, but I shall bid you good day as I cannot fit in here despite my efforts to blend in.  My upbringing tends to make me speak in a respectful fashion by default, but the politeness is often interpreted by people as a sign of weakness, which in turn, brings about the sort of nonsense quoted above.  These are people for whom a good days work is about getting as many likes for their wise-cracks as they possibly can.  A very sorry existence indeed.

 

Anyway, strange as it might sound, even us guys have hobbies in our time off, so I hope the idea came across well enough to 'make the dream a reality' so to speak.

 

 

Gentlemen.


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#28 Fsus4

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 20:19

I see your perspective here, pat. However, historically Renoise development has always been somewhat influenced by users who have been presenting a strong case for certain features or concepts. And let's not forget that writing those epic posts might inspire Lua scripters lurking in the background, or even the writer himself to do more research and get into action.

 

Let's not discourage users to present their visions and features for Renoise -- it's a great thing people are willing to share their thoughts and conclusions about what it would take to move Renoise forward. I'd say quite the contrary: bring 'em on! The "epic posts about what Renoise developers 'should' do'" show a great deal of passion.

 

I personally find the features suggested in this thread to be very interesting, and I'd rather read 30+ pages of real passionate argumentation for features X than 30+ pages of lolcats, cynicism and that ugly social constructivist approach to values ("the more likes you get, the more real and the more value you obviously have").

 

So pat, you're a nice guy, but I won't pat you on the back on this one -- seems you just chimed in here with nothing substantial to offer whatsoever, only telling others what they "should" do.


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#29 The_Traveler

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 20:25

 

You know, that comical little title below your username might suggest a "Big Daddy Member", but in reality, I could have you tracked down and taught a lesson in respect within the hour.  Making wise-cracks at my expense isn't what I'd call a very good idea, so please don't do it again.  The problem with the internet is you have no idea who you're rubbing shoulders with most of the time.

 

Sorry dude, but making threats, even those that everyone know you have no chance of following through on, is pretty uncool.

 

If you can't take criticism, you probably shouldn't participate in public forums.

 

Cheers.


Edited by The_Traveler, 16 July 2017 - 21:01.


#30 encryptedmind

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 20:51

@joule

 

That's all you have to do. Do note that there is no safe way to distinguish an M6 chord from a m7. Also sus4 and sus2 are ambiguous, and a couple of others.

 

Nice, a modulo works for cyclic patterns like clocks and rolling XOR's as well. I was basically coming up with an algo on the spot, and the process of coming up with the table. Once you have the table itself it can be implemented in many ways. Maybe you can share the Lua code and write a plugin with others to contribute their part and include features one by one. A thing about using modulo, if its division mostly, then a simpler bit shifting formula (if it works) would possibly be a more efficient implementation if performance is concern, because computers are not best for long division activities. Especially since we have no assembly level control over such things from the APIs. I dunno, maybe it makes sense maybe not. 

 

A Major 6th chord default chord position can be taken as a minor7th first inversion. However, the bass note is the differentiator here. Same thing for the sus2 and sus4, the bass note has a tonal contribution and a nominal one too. Again these are things that I plan to have dealt with in the exceptions list part of the algo development. End of the day what I wanted to aim for is to get a bit pattern list or token structure for each chord and the binary pattern length will dictate the number of total chords that can be represented.  

 

The modulus value will always give a number between 1 and 12. I am not sure if you take the octaves into account? Taking octaves into account will automatically simplify the extensions parameters for chord naming, otherwise how will you name chord extensions beyond one octave, becos they could be a 6th or a 13th, or and 11th or a 4th or a 9th or a 2nd?

 

 

Your maj = { 4, 7 }    pattern can be further synthesized into a binary structure or basically a byte as for the Major 7th  ={1,0,1} where a 1 represents a Maj3rd and a 0 for a Min3rd which mimics the Base 2 notation, and this simplification of the structure can result from earlier normalization and the exception lists. That is what my own implementation would look like. So that would translate to enum ChordType = {5,4.......} or a keymap vector and for one BYTE you can have 255 chords represented in an 8 bit pattern and 8 note chords are quite the common lingo and 12 note chords etc can be done with a SHORT type basically just an extension. It's just an implementation idea, we can always perfect it later on. The other benefit of having a bit data structure is that we can do a lot of AND masking and OR masking to leave out, check or toggle bits on and off that would be a little cumbersome with a strings or object based data type, especially if we also have a Chord Generator module from user input or ruleset. Can we have a demo plugin out soon and a separate thread for this RAS feature lists?

 

 

 

@renoised  Its pretty normal to have ideas and brainstorming attempts assassinated (if you are vulnerable to it), but there is a lot of work left to do and a lot of talent out here no doubt. In fact various companies have this feature brainstorming sessions where they dole out design ideas and then the draft code and then they get some time off from work to develop those ideas etc. Same thing here, nothing wrong with it and I just joined a week ago I suppose !  Your ideals are nice but your participation is even more necessary if the long term goals are to be reached. 

 

 

@pat I suppose if there is a tool for this feature, lets just get on with it and dole it out ourselves. I don't code in Lua for now, but maybe as a community effort we can have a demo sometime soon? The reason we have the APIs is that some amount of control is being given to us as users as well. So I would not jump to conclusions as to whether we are asking the developers what to do or not. Maybe its just a discussion amongst ourselves as the users, that we would like something added and maybe we already have the tools to get it done? Think positive. I may be new out here, but there are other places where I am quite established internally so I can understand things from your point of view also. Have some ideas ? :)


Edited by encryptedmind, 17 July 2017 - 19:00.

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#31 pat

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 21:37

.


Edited by pat, 16 July 2017 - 22:21.


#32 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 21:41

This RAS thing is doable via tools. I think it would be a lot of work, but it's one of those things which would happen with tools and is unlikely to happen...

 

 

Pat, so far so good, but...

 

...by continually writing epic posts about what Renoise developers "should" do.

 

But your last comment takes away people's desire to write, comment or contribute ideas in these forums. If you do not like reading "epic posts", do not read them. Some of them are very interesting to me. There are new people constantly entering the forums and they do not know as you about Renoise's situation and its progress. Loosen the rope!

 

In fact, many of these are interesting because those "epic posts", and not for the nonsense that have some and there are users who can learn new things. In addition, I find it difficult to read English. So imagine ^_^ ...

 

For short posts you have Twitter... These are forums. The deeper you dig into something, the better. Sometimes complicated things are hard to explain, and it's hard to write them down. Appreciates the effort...


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#33 pat

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 22:09

 


Edited by pat, 16 July 2017 - 22:20.


#34 Renoised

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 22:41

Sorry dude, but making threats, even those that everyone know you have no chance of following through on, is pretty uncool.

 

Oh really, and would it surprise you that I think it's "pretty uncool" to belittle me after spending what must have been 90% of my time-off explaining a feature I'd love to see?

What exactly was to be gained by the belittlement, other than accumulating likes from the people who actually gave that post a like?

 

Such "Facebook Culture" simpletons need to show some respect, cause I do not make "threats", I point out facts.



#35 Renoised

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 22:48

Cool beans. I'll stick to making music and writing tools that solve my own problems.

 

 

And stick to Facebook if you want to act the simpleton.



#36 pat

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 22:54

Well, I didn't see any point in helping someone who felt compelled to threaten me. But in the interest of contributing something useful, I'll re-create my post from before.

 

Renoise development is really slow. Lots of cool stuff is done via tools. Laffik, in particular, has been making really cool tools that are in the direction of the RAS idea:

I'm not sure why you took such offense to me pointing out that if you want to see your idea come to life, tools are a viable way forward. And I definitely don't understand why you felt it necessary or appropriate to threaten me. But that says way more about you than it does about me, that's for sure.

 

I hope you find a way to bring your ideas to life. I have no doubt that many people here will be willing to help you.


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#37 danoise

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 23:18

PS2. I suggest to mods that this discussion be split into a separate topic :)


Agreed. Topic split from here

Edit #2: Read up to the following point and missed all the last posts. Please don't fuzz over this. 
 

I find it hard to see how the dynamic real-time rendering of such pattern XML-data would be possible (it would be too slow). Are you aware of any other music software on the market that does this today (presumably with MIDI data)?

 
There is one: xStream, which happens to be running in Renoise, here and now. xStream is using a concept called "models" to transform and generate pattern data in realtime, or offline. 
And I'm pretty confident that in time, RAS as it's described here, could be implemented as a xStream spinoff.
 
Right now, xStream is a rather nerdy and difficult-to-use environment that doesn't try very hard to showcase it's potential. It's biggest current limitation is that it's built around a focus on a single track at a time. And that seems to be going counter to this topic, which is about orchestrating a full song in real-time - the ultimate high-level control, as opposed to the detailed view that you normally associate with a tracker?
But if you could launch/control multiple models at the same time and removed about 80 percent of the interface, it would become a lot more accessible. Next, ship it with configurations that were saved into songs, have it automatically configured and ready to use as you started Renoise? This is basically the next version... currently on summer break 
 
Now, if you don't think the whole "tool approach" sounds attractive, then I have to ask a question: RAS is an extension of Renoise which does automatic orchestration. But, how do you actually control it? There must be something that is different from now, or should it all be hidden behind some super auto-magic button?

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#38 Fsus4

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 23:41

Whoa, now wait a minute danoise, are you saying that a Lua script extension is actually fast enough to "sniff" the MIDI-keyboard input, recognize the chord being pressed down, and instantly transform the entire pattern from playing everything in e.g. Dm to playing everything in Fsus4 in real time? If so, man that's awesome!

 

Maybe the best thing we could do for Renoise development is actually to build a "Learn Lua scripting in Renoise" online e-learning course and get more people involved with scripting! I also second Raul's idea of a dedicated subforum for publishing Videos related to Renoise.

 

Damn, why should I have so little time and so many obligations... I also want to create cool Lua scripts and enjoy a richer Renoise experience. Guess I'll have to cut down on music making and spend that time with Lua instead...


Edited by Fsus4, 16 July 2017 - 23:44.


#39 The_Traveler

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 23:44

 

Such "Facebook Culture" simpletons need to show some respect, cause I do not make "threats", I point out facts.

And stick to Facebook if you want to act the simpleton.

I could have you tracked down and taught a lesson in respect within the hour.  Making wise-cracks at my expense isn't what I'd call a very good idea, so please don't do it again.  The problem with the internet is you have no idea who you're rubbing shoulders with most of the time.

 

This. Does nothing positive to forward your ideas with others.

 

So, like Pat I wish you luck, but I won't be contributing either.

 

Cheers.


Edited by The_Traveler, 16 July 2017 - 23:45.


#40 Renoised

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 23:46

@pat

All I did was explain stuff, you're the one who started with the pointless belittling nonsense, not me.

 

@danoise

I was, until I saw that post of his, spending time mocking-up completed interface designs to demonstrate the idea visually - "was".

Regardless, thanks for spinning-off the thread although you've misnamed it, RAS should be "Renoise Accompaniment System".

 

Thanks to everyone who likes the idea, sees the power in it, and works to bring it to life.


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#41 Renoised

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Posted 16 July 2017 - 23:52

This. Does nothing positive to forward your ideas with others.

 

Are you trying to provoke something here?

You're either incredibly brave or incredibly stupid, and I suspect it's the latter.



#42 danoise

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 00:23

@danoise
I was, until I saw that post of his, spending time mocking-up completed interface designs to demonstrate the idea visually - "was".
Regardless, thanks for spinning-off the thread although you've misnamed it, RAS should be "Renoise Accompaniment System".


I changed it - it's your topic now, you can always change the topic title by editing the first post (full editor)

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#43 MattD

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 00:54

Do not forget the Phrase Editor inside the Sampler. 

 

I don't think the phrases system uses diatonic (scalar) transposition, does it? That significantly limits its usefulness.


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#44 The_Traveler

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 02:09

 

Are you trying to provoke something here?

You're either incredibly brave or incredibly stupid, and I suspect it's the latter.

 

Welcome to my ignore list.

 

Cheers.



#45 encryptedmind

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 03:30

I don't think the phrases system uses diatonic (scalar) transposition, does it? That significantly limits its usefulness.

 

The transposition functions in the Phrases system are two fold. The first function on the top right effectively forces the midi input to the scale key and the scale type for any input data. What you set here also latches on the main Pattern Editor and you can enter data in a similar effected manner in both views. It can be very useful for composition related tasks. The bottom piano keyboard displays the intended notes of the scale in the key chosen.

 

The second transposition function is at the bottom toolbar in the Phrases editor transposes the root of the phrase uniformly much like a normal sampler except there is no slowing down or speeding up of the phrase. 

 

If you mean post data entry transposition of the phrase then the second feature makes it a point and click approach. However, for partial shifts or per note basis the Pattern editor is the best and the advanced editing features can be implemented and copied back. The PhraseMate plugin and NoodleTrap between them allow for back and forth exchange of Pattern and Phrase data.


Edited by encryptedmind, 17 July 2017 - 17:17.

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#46 encryptedmind

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 03:38

@renoised Hey bro, I feel you have already made your point and no one is really hostile to you or anything. I think you can put yesterdays conversation behind and just go with the flow. I personally did not mind anything yet and everyone has acknowledged their perspective clearly so there seems to be no confusion anywhere. Its a forum where all are friends by default (if I am correct) so taking a conversation with a new focus and clarity might make things smoother for us all, I am sure everyone appreciates your enthusiasm :)


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#47 joule

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 08:38

I just want to point out that phrases are quite unusable in this realm, due to the simple fact that they can't be inverted (e g, lacking some kind of indexed note system).

 

@encryptedmind,

 

sus2/sus4 will indeed be ambiguous due to the fact that you can't determine which inversion that's being used. Even if you have a separate bass track it will be ambiguous, but you can indeed make a more educated guess in that case.

 

Regarding bit operations, I don't find that necessary. Would that be for speed? Using normal lua tables and interval values is working very fast for me. I'm guessing that it also makes the code more readable than some bitop system.


Edited by joule, 17 July 2017 - 08:53.


#48 Renoised

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 11:00

Welcome to my ignore list.

 

Cheers.

 

Damn, that'll teach me.



#49 Renoised

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 11:09

I changed it - it's your topic now, you can always change the topic title by editing the first post (full editor)

 

Thanks for changing it, and for the heads-up about the editing.



#50 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 11:51

I don't think the phrases system uses diatonic (scalar) transposition, does it? That significantly limits its usefulness.

 

@MattD and @Joule... I remembered the phrase editor just for what it serves, to be able to play phrases or several notes at the same time, and to be able to save them in a specific extension file for later use. If I understand some comments well, it seems that the idea is to convert the matrix editor into something else: add the ability to play each box independently, in real time and be able to play several at once. That would imply transform the matrix editor and something else. As it is now, it only occurs to me to add 2 tabs, so that the matrix editor can work in 2 ways ("matrix editor" and "other editor"), as it is now, and with those new capabilities. How to merge all that? Anyway, I see certain limitations of control by their vertical distribution. That is, there is no complete bird's eye view.

 

 

...

 

 

Regarding the topic of tools. I see this theme quite lively. I suggest that those who want these features learn LUA and the Renoise API to create tools. This will help you understand Renoise's capabilities and limitations. So any new idea will be better justified.

 

So, encourage to the composers of Renoise to build tools, that there are not many people who create them.

 

Whoa, now wait a minute danoise, are you saying that a Lua script extension is actually fast enough to "sniff" the MIDI-keyboard input, recognize the chord being pressed down, and instantly transform the entire pattern from playing everything in e.g. Dm to playing everything in Fsus4 in real time? If so, man that's awesome!

 

Maybe the best thing we could do for Renoise development is actually to build a "Learn Lua scripting in Renoise" online e-learning course and get more people involved with scripting! I also second Raul's idea of a dedicated subforum for publishing Videos related to Renoise.

 

Damn, why should I have so little time and so many obligations... I also want to create cool Lua scripts and enjoy a richer Renoise experience. Guess I'll have to cut down on music making and spend that time with Lua instead...

 

@Fsus4, I do not know if you're aware of where you you're getting into. Explaining using videos how to build tools and code can be a difficult task. I would love to see it, it would help a lot to new people. But the problem is that these things steal a lot of time. So yes, you will have to sacrifice a lot of time for composition and devote your time to learning and creating tools.

 

Videotutorials (not officials) on how to use Renoise, videos about songs (are a few interesting on Youtube), or the explanation of how to build some effects is wonderful. Now, videos about building tools with LUA are a luxury, and I think it's a lot of work.

 

I hope yourselves to go forward and yourselves do not get cowed. To avoid this, I encourage anyone to learn how to create tools. It's a whole world that Renoise offers, and it's not a theme for a month or two. It will be a long time investment.

 

This whole topic is very interesting. But do not expect Taktik to come back and head on with this as a priority theme. Instead, what if we fill in the forums dedicated to the tools? Surely will receive much help there if necessary...

 

Come on!


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:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 18 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 18 July 2017):

Spoiler