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RAS - Renoise Accompaniment System


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#51 Renoised

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 14:19

To those of you who are going into depth about scripting and all that sort of stuff, I'm reading what you post although I cannot reply due to not being a scripter or programmer.  I do read them in an attempt to gather what info I can from them, and sometimes I can make sense of what you're talking about, but I just wanted to point it out in case my lack of replies to those types of posts make me look ignorant.  I read and appreciate all of it, and lets face it, if this actually happens, if you guys can work the technical aspect of it out, it's going to be one heck of a system.

 

Regards taking the Yamaha approach to decyphering chords, personally I'm all for that.  I think that's why Cubase has such a good implementation of it, no doubt it's using Yamaha's accompaniment tech behind the scenes due to Steinberg being owned by Yamaha.



#52 encryptedmind

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Posted 17 July 2017 - 18:37

 

I just want to point out that phrases are quite unusable in this realm, due to the simple fact that they can't be inverted (e g, lacking some kind of indexed note system).

 

@encryptedmind,

 

sus2/sus4 will indeed be ambiguous due to the fact that you can't determine which inversion that's being used. Even if you have a separate bass track it will be ambiguous, but you can indeed make a more educated guess in that case.

 

Regarding bit operations, I don't find that necessary. Would that be for speed? Using normal lua tables and interval values is working very fast for me. I'm guessing that it also makes the code more readable than some bitop system.

 

I use one of the best chord detectors on the market especially geared for Neo Soul and Gospel Jazz type of chords. MIDIculous player (free!) and its used by a LOT of folks out there into such genres. Below are some screenshots from the various chords to make my point. In Jazz music the Bass is 'all supreme' and always takes precedence. This tool also displays alternate or best ranked chord names which are equally applicable depending on who is playing or using it, which also improves the utility of such a tool inside Renoise. 

 

(btw I can't see the attach file button in my post option and the link option is cutting a part of the url out, so I am using imgur direct image code if it works...)

 

wTapOVG.jpg

 

 

k2rbl4i.jpg

 

 

QSrDFgL.jpg

 

 

bdJmyDs.jpg

 

If we could start with a simple Chord REcognizer plugin that does what MIDIculous player does, we will also have an educational tool in our hands since we can already slow or fast up a project tempo and also import midi files and do the same thing like MIDIculous player. A simple sheet view just as shown in the images will greatly augment the existing feature set in Renoise and maybe in future, I would hate to see a piano roll in Renoise, but a sheet entry system would be a game changer in many ways - 1) negating the use of external scoring packages (for routine tasks) 2) increasing familiarity and use of Western style notation for music composition and music education.

 

The chord below is a very 'normal' Gospel style chord that we play that has to be named as such :

 

SLldDku.jpg

 

 

 

 

I gather there are multitude of algorithms with their own pros and cons. Speed is one concern but if you say it works fast for you then I suppose it should for me as well. I saw one of your plugins for the delay spreading for tuplet values and I think you already have the chops to get this done. The use of bit based operations are always more performant but also very simple to manage when dealing with repetitive transform tasks for chordtype manipulation, which all become one liners when using bitwise logic.

 

1) Conversion operations:

 

Major =[1,0]

 

NOT(Major) =[0,1] =Minor chord.

NOT(Minor) =[1,0]=Major chord

 

Maj XOR Min = Aug chord

 

Dim7=[0,0,0]

 

{NOT(Dim7) & [1,1,0]} =[1,1,0]=MajAug7th

 

(Dim7 | [0,0,1]) =[0,0,1]=min7b5 or 1/2 diminished

 

 

2)  For signatures in rule sets like:

 

[Key Signature] [Bass Note] [Root Key] [ChordType]

 

Since there are 12 keys and 12 roots in total, 4 bits or one hex character is enough for its representation. 

 

[0xF] [0xF] [0xF] [0xFF]

 

can be the signature template that per line will give the above mentioned information in a very compact and malleable format.

 

Signature Matrix sets can be again used for Matrix like operations for algorithmic composition or Aleatoric music or Trigonometric transforms to get interesting sequences.

 

[0xF] [0xF] [0xF] [0xFF]

[0xF] [0xF] [0xF] [0xFF]

[0xF] [0xF] [0xF] [0xFF]

[0xF] [0xF] [0xF] [0xFF]

 
 

For a 4x5 matrix chord progression whose information can be combined with another simple note matrix [0x1 0x2 0x4 0x5 0x9 0xA] to create more transforms.

 

4) Rhythmic patterns can be represented as a bit pattern

 

1,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,1,0,0,0

 

is a 4 to the floor kick. 

 

Now if you use a ROL/ROR or SHR/SHL operation on this rhythm bit pattern we can mutate the existing rhythm in a much simpler fashion. This pattern can be extended or shrinked to make other derivatives. 

 

For instance;

 

rhythmVar=1,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,1,0,0,0,1,0,0,0

 

rhythm | (rhythmVar ROR 2) = 1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0,1,0

 
which is a hi-hat pattern.
 
5) Canons and other similar generative styles
 
A melodic pattern can be juxtaposed to play with a rhythm sequence and only those patterns that have a bit set will sound, much like a gate but not working on a single sample but the entire melodic data. 
 
A melodic pattern can be delayed and played back keeping the buffers in place with their offsets, resulting in a Canon style of playback.
 
 
6) Sheet music display
 
A bit pattern from C0 to C8 (or smaller with higher octaves just retransposed back with an octave sign 8ve) can simply be set to display the requisite note positions. Normalize all enharmonic notation to simply sharps or flats to simplify. It will boil down to a unique number per chord or voicing and that will be decoded to display the notes on screen on a staff image backdrop or solid color background. 

 

This can be a particular use case and not compulsory to implement everything in bits, even though personally I would love it. For live MIDI chord detection as long as its not slow, any implementation that gets the job done is fine. A demo plugin would be a great thing that can be eventually attached to Renoise making this a core feature rather than an external one (maybe a display label near the transport section).

 

 

Finally, can you recommend some really result oriented Lua resources where I can get upto speed straight to Renoise API use without extra fluff? Also a well documented Renoise API listing (Renoise forums area :)) if available. 

 

Thanks.


Edited by encryptedmind, 17 July 2017 - 18:58.

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#53 Garrett Wang

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 00:34

Personally I don't really think this kind of tool is necessary.

Use a chord and scales dictionary.

I recommend piano companion by songtive for android.

 

https://www.songtive...piano-companion

 

Renoise already has many scales included.

Choose some notes from those scales and play them at the same time.

If I need to find out the technical name of that chord I will use piano companion app.

Even better, learn the scales, intervals and the cycle of fifths.

 

However, if someone wanted to put the time in to create an auto-accompaniment / chord progression / key changer tool it would be cool to look at the way suzuki q-chord works and base the design on that:

 

maxresdefault.jpg


Edited by Garrett Wang, 18 July 2017 - 01:01.


#54 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 01:45

Do you see how this forum is interesting?  ^_^

 

...

Renoise already has many scales included.

Choose some notes from those scales and play them at the same time.

If I need to find out the technical name of that chord I will use piano companion app.

Even better, learn the scales, intervals and the cycle of fifths.

...

 

Possibly they want a tool that allows them to avoid all that. I have just spoken privately with another forum member on a related topic, and it is always the same: I want "a toy" that allows me to do things faster. And if it has live playback features it is better. The name for this tool could be "ChordToy". I love the name. Some still take the word "toy" as something derogatory, and it's just the opposite. A toy allows to make happy to its owner.

 

Please keep sharing images or videos of things like that. I love it!  :guitar:


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#55 encryptedmind

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 02:26

@garrett

Haha nice device for this sort of thing. I never actually personally use this feature for composition/production since I do theory in my head and can compute chord shapes (rattle note names of any chord immediately) like the back of my hand and I read music.
I use it when analyzing or transcribing jazz or gospel changes or solos since the voicings can get quite complicated if looked at individually. Also with the MIDI files mostly or if exported from sheet music projects.

The purpose is to have this core feature as a precursor and enable other things like 'in pattern chord recognition' or 'extract chord name from selection'. I mean even Emagic Logic had this small blue label in their transport dialog constantly analyzing midi input and displaying name strings. Its a basic but very useful feature in the long run and it can aid Renoise warming its feet in music education as well. Just like using trackers requires you to be comfortable with various computer concepts its expected that music analysis systems are also included, in time.

As you said scales and key signatures are already added so why exclude chords and go for an android app. That completely breaks the workflow!

Think of a feature like a 'harmony lane' for every required track where on the right hand harmony column the chord notes in the pattern editor are given names. Just like the beat slicer we can have automatic chord analysis or analysis by note selection which can be user edited. This can he useful for harmonically dense projects or instead of selecting note batches we can select the designated chord labels and change the chord type on the fly. It adds a more music theory oriented flavour to am already existing fast interface.

Also for building chord progression analysis or generating system for auto accompaniment I assume a chord voicing analyser is almost the first thing that gets done, is not it?

@raul

Haha ChordToy is a funny name indeed. ChordANALizer would possible give someone more pleasure :0

You are right though its a non-critical though important enough feature for a variety of purposes. 'Re-tranzcribe' can be another name for this if it's integrated as a feature for 'select notes-> chord name' function right from the pattern editor.

Mostly though its for proof of concept, LUA programming practice, plugin dev practice, and its easy enough to implement once the basics are handled. Won't replace MIDIculous though :)

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#56 encryptedmind

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 02:39

BTW BIAB was mentioned earlier in this thread. If you use it the primary and most esssential parameters are chords that are entered by the user or via a song style template and the Melodist and Soloist modules generate their information based on the chord progressions and genres based assumptions and rule sets. Chord analyses for whatever activity is important no doubt. However if it is already implemented else where in some plugin or tool for Renoise then it would be redundant for now. If not then we should get this done, I think.

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#57 Renoised

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 11:33

Do you see how this forum is interesting?  ^_^

 

 

Possibly they want a tool that allows them to avoid all that. I have just spoken privately with another forum member on a related topic, and it is always the same: I want "a toy" that allows me to do things faster. And if it has live playback features it is better. The name for this tool could be "ChordToy". I love the name. Some still take the word "toy" as something derogatory, and it's just the opposite. A toy allows to make happy to its owner.

 

Just to be clear, when I talked about the "toy" comment earlier, I didn't think you meant it in a derogatory way.  I hear what you're saying, I even like the name "ChordToy".  I'd prefer RAS to be honest, but ChordToy does have a fun sort of charm to it, and that's a good thing.

 

Remember what I said about implementation, though.  That's ultimately what's going to make or break the feature as a success.  It needs to be obvious, noticable, and instantly gratifying even to a newcomer.  Basically, newcomer fires-up Renoise for the first time, sees chord pads, presses one, and a looping accompaniment starts playing.  It continues to play over and over until they press another chord pad and the chord changes.  To get that part right would be a success, they'd be hooked, mission accomplished.  But fail that vital part, and you fail by default because the whole point is to make such a powerful feature obvious, accessible, instant, productive, and fun to use.

 

Remember, it's not just a powerful tool for seasoned users to have fun with, it's a tool that should be irresistible to people wanting to make music.



#58 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 14:16

I am about to use the name of "ChordToy" for a possible future tool that I will create, away from RAS concept. I like the name of RAS, because they are acronyms. My next tool, which I have almost finished, his name is also an acronym of three letters. I like short names.

 

I remembered the name "toy" for this comment:

...

So, to conclude: This is far from a "toy", it's something many users -- especially potential new ones -- most likely would appreciate. The concept is proven to work well for e.g. Bitwig and Ableton. It's an extremely powerful arranger tool if you combine it with the capabilities of the pattern matrix (such as turning individuals tracks on/off) as well as a way to get more "instant joy" out of Renoise for many people.

...

 

A good tool, well built, is the same that a good toy, that tool you like to always have to control it...


:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 18 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 18 July 2017):

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#59 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 14:47

...

 

Remember, it's not just a powerful tool for seasoned users to have fun with, it's a tool that should be irresistible to people wanting to make music.

I think that in order to achieve that effect you mention, an implementation under the bonnet of Renoise would be necessary, it would be an added thing.
 
One tool, however good it may be, is not Renoise. The new user will not even know that tools can be installed. But I understand that some people are enthusiastic about this idea. I think it is very good if it is implemented under the hood. If it is through a tool, a few will use it. And it is very likely to contain some mistake.
 
It all sounds great. But I still think that a good way to hook people is by showing results, not a tool. Imagine the case. The "RAS" tool is created. Enter a new user and install Renoise. With a miracle, he knows about the existence of the RAS tool and installs it. You will play with this tool for a while. And then you will have the same problem as always. You'll have to learn how to handle Renoise. And you may get more confusion, for having been playing with chords before and so on.
 
For most, the composition process remains the order more or less defined. Put notes in ordered patterns and then play and modify. Being able to control something like RAS would be more of a feature to add, but it's not what a new user needs to start with Renoise. Is what I believe.
 
I would see even more useful a tool that teaches you to compose with Renoise. Danoise would have a lot of work with this tool. But it would be very useful for new people. A tool with steps and images of each thing, to teach you the basics... But do not worry. This tool "Learn Renoise" will never be built...
 
We all have to think things very well all...

 

The majority of weight tools shared in these forums have a personal sense of the author, not something intended for the great mass of people. In fact, some tools are only understood by the creator himself.

 

That's why I encourage everyone to learn LUA and the Renoise API to build tools. Form a small development team, develop a good script focused on satisfying the vast majority of users and after all that, create the tool.

 

It is not the first time that a small team of users is formed to build a specific tool to satisfy a few users. But talking is one thing, and working in construction is another...


:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 18 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 18 July 2017):

Spoiler

#60 The_Traveler

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 17:24

 

I am about to use the name of "ChordToy" for a possible future tool that I will create, away from RAS concept.

Scale Finder exists and could easily be extended. It works fine in Renoise 3.x: https://www.renoise....ls/scale-finder

 

Cheers.


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#61 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 18:04

Scale Finder exists and could easily be extended. It works fine in Renoise 3.x: https://www.renoise....ls/scale-finder

 

Cheers.

 

Excellent The_Traveler! I do not know if the author Suva reviewed his tool recently. I just tried the tool. I did not know her, but the introduction of the Note OFF I do not know if it is correct. In theory, you should write the Note-OFF when you release the mouse, and should be written under each note. Also the tool could integrate an introducer of the volume parameter for each note. Do not use this tool with speakers in high volume.

 

By default the tool enters Note-OFF when it is not necessary. But Scale Finder seems the perfect tool that some users claim here...

 

Interesting! Let's see what others think...

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:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 18 July 2017):

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:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 18 July 2017):

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#62 Garrett Wang

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 19:13

I do theory in my head and can compute chord shapes (rattle note names of any chord immediately) like the back of my hand and I read music.

 

May I ask, if this is the case why do you require a tool which can do this for you? You have stated that you can "rattle note names of any chord immediately", but that you also require a tool to decipher chord inversions.

 

Quite a few people who came from a classical music background made these kind of posts.
They are often enthusiastic and excited to break new ground, want to be as innovative as possible and share some of thier music knowledge with others.

If your aim is to create electronic music based on sampling or with the use of VSTi, with the possibility of micro-editing and with a focus on attention to detail, renoise is a good choice of software.

Trackers and classical sheet music systems both have quite a long history and a different approach to sequencing pitch and ryhthm (amongst other things). For example, trackers never use flats, only sharps. You have to read the manual and adjust the sheet music way of doing things into the tracker way of doing things.

 

 

enable other things like 'in pattern chord recognition' or 'extract chord name from selection'.

 

Just use piano companion. It is a great reference app. It really doesn't break the workflow. Just enter the notes which you are having difficulty determining a chord name to describe and it will give you all the possible ways of naming those three or more notes as a chord. Sometimes there can be more than one way to describe a chord.

 

 

It adds a more music theory oriented flavour to am already existing fast interface.

 

Knowledge of music theory is helpful to the user of renoise. However, renoise itself is not intended to be a music theory reference.

Its up to the user of renoise to learn music theory if they want to make the kind of music which includes key changes and complex harmonies...maybe like the synth parts of prog rock or something.

People from a more traditional music background tend to feel that electronic music is more about rhythm, sound design and effects processing rather than melody, harmony and progressions.

I can recommend this book for learning about harmony...

 

"The Gig Bag Book of Theory and Harmony - Compiled and edited by Joe Dineen and Mark Bridges".

 

 

...the Melodist and Soloist modules generate their information based on the chord progressions and genres based assumptions and rule sets.

 

There are many generative music apps which do this kind of thing. Try Noatikl and Mixtikl.

https://intermorphic.com/noatikl/

 

https://intermorphic.com/mixtikl/

 

Renoised said:

 

"It needs to be obvious, noticable, and instantly gratifying even to a newcomer.  Basically, newcomer fires-up Renoise for the first time, sees chord pads, presses one, and a looping accompaniment starts playing.  It continues to play over and over until they press another chord pad and the chord changes."

 
Renoise is an advanced sampler sequencer. Its purpose is music composition with the use of samples. It is not intended as a generative music app, or a clip launcher with pre-prepared loops which all fit together without effort.

In order to use renoise to create music the renoise user should read the manual to understand the functions of reniose and then write music using renoise. Read the manual.

Edited by Garrett Wang, 18 July 2017 - 19:14.

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#63 Renoised

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 20:50

@Garrett

Why does Renoise being a Tracker with a user manual that can be read, have any bearing on this feature?

Do you think people who use Renoise have no interest in chords and chord progressions or something?

 

I have plenty of external chord tools, both in software and hardware, but they're not integrated, and no amount of "reading the manual" will change that.  Reading the manual doesn't bring productivity, it just reminds you how time-consuming the current system can be.  If you think that manually inputting chords is better than being able to just tap the things out on the fly, there is something you're not grasping here.  You also need to remember that in order to input a chord in the first place, you need to know which keys that chord is made up of.  Most people getting into this stuff haven't a clue about chords and chord progressions!

 

These systems change all that; they generate the chords without any need for music theory, and over time, the user even starts to learn from them.


So no, I won't "Read the Manual" :D


Edited by Renoised, 18 July 2017 - 21:25.


#64 danoise

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Posted 18 July 2017 - 22:18

@danoise
I was, until I saw that post of his, spending time mocking-up completed interface designs to demonstrate the idea visually - "was".


Mockups are a real luxury. Would be interesting to see.

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#65 Garrett Wang

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 01:22

@Renoised:

 

I understand what your saying in that you want a cubase chord system in renoise and that you believe new users would feel less alienated by tracker software if they could have instant gratification.

 

Its not really that time consuming to record the chords into a pattern by playing the chords on a midi keyboard, or even a computer keyboard. If someone doesnt know how to build chords in a key its easy to just google that information or use the piano companion app. Its better that way because the more you do it the more you will remember the chord shapes and interval structure.

 

Once you have a chord progression written into renoise, it is also really easy to transpose it.

 

As for the auto-accompaniment part for live playing, is that really necessary or would it be easier to write the chord progressions into patterns first and then press play and play along with your keyboard or another instrument?

 

All I'm saying is that although this would be a pretty cool feature, it might be pretty time consuming...Perhaps it would be better to spend time to add something more useful like vertical waveform view audiotracks or fix the vibrato and tremelo commands so that they cycle in time.

 

If you want to play a chord with a single keypress you can always sample the chord assign it onto a key.

 

Then again, I can understand the need for it in terms of what encryptedmind was saying. As in labelling chords (or extract chord name from selection), but only in the context of being the "computer guy" member of a band in which you had to give the other musicians chord sheets as prompts so that they could play along with your renoise song.

 

This is from the manual:

 

When entering notes step by step with the computer keyboard, they will by default be placed sequentially. If you want to quickly insert chords without live recording, you can do this by holding down "Left Shift" while entering the notes. This will automatically create new note columns to the right and enter the new notes there. Note that MIDI keyboards will always record chords when pressing more than one key at a time.


Edited by Garrett Wang, 19 July 2017 - 02:16.

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#66 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 11:58

@Garret: Very good advice. Especially the use of MIDI keyboard to introduce chords. It seems that some users are not aware of these capabilities. Precisely the MIDI keyboard allows us to enter several notes at a time (and accurately with delay). A tool based on buttons limits its use to the mouse or a pad if mapped.

 

In the end some seem to want to not learn certain things and skip steps. I speak in general. For example, when using loops or chords already done. In the end you are not composing music, just mounting pieces already built by other people (or tool).

 

A video to rejoice (this composer use Ableton Live, but no matter ^_^):

 

As I said, the best promotion is to show results. Seeing these things you do not feel like composing?


Edited by Raul (ulneiz), 19 July 2017 - 12:02.

:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 18 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 18 July 2017):

Spoiler

#67 joule

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 14:07

Here is a sloppy walk-thru of a chord tool I made, in case it might inspire anyone.

 


Edited by joule, 19 July 2017 - 14:07.

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#68 Circe

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 14:23

Hi Joule.. at least you finish your tool, such a great and usefull. In your plans are the posibility to share it ? Please please. Thanks a lot !

#69 Fsus4

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 15:27

Here is a sloppy walk-thru of a chord tool I made, in case it might inspire anyone.

 

 

Wow!! Very cool and inspiring indeed! Hope you'll consider releasing it as a public tool at some point. :walkman:


Edited by Fsus4, 19 July 2017 - 15:30.

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#70 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 16:05

@Joule, I suspected that you had something very hidden inside your computer, from that screenshot that you showed months ago.

 

I just hope that if you share it, the people who download it will be grateful enough to you with a thank-you note, and do not engage in unloading like shameless people.

 

Your ChordTracker looks great! It would be a model tool worthy of study. Congratulations!


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:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 18 July 2017):

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:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 18 July 2017):

Spoiler

#71 Garrett Wang

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 16:48

@Renoised:

 

For the auto-accompaniment part of the idea, I said earlier you can sample a chord or phrase and assign it to one key.

That is one way, but I forgot to mention the phrase editor.

 

The phrase editor does exactly what you were describing earlier.

 

You can write a chord progression into a phrase in the phrase editor, have it playback by pressing a key and transpose it up or down (if the phrase is assigned to multiple keys). Triggering your chord progression phrases with the left hand and playing melodies live with the right hand is possible.

 

If you write your original phrase (which is to be transposed during a live performance with key changes later on) in the key of C, then map the phrase to span a whole octave at the lower end of the keyboard you can transpose the phrase into any key whilst playing live.

 

For example, having mapped out my key of C chord progression phrase to a whole octave starting on C, if I want to transpose that chord progression into the key of G#, I would simply press the G# key in the octave which the phrase spans and that chord progression would start playing in the key of G#.

 

Check out the phrase editor part of the manual:

 

http://tutorials.ren...i/Phrase_Editor


Edited by Garrett Wang, 19 July 2017 - 17:11.


#72 encryptedmind

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 20:47

Here is a sloppy walk-thru of a chord tool I made, in case it might inspire anyone.

 

 

@joule! That looks fancy maan :) The UI and the slider facility are attractive features. I think this will a very good starter module for the intended goal of an RAS, in addition to its existing ChordTracker functionality. I wish I could prototype something as fast. Seems you had this going on for sometime though. I have an idea for an added feature for this tool - an interactive Circie of 5ths dial where you can try out and project implement many of the current harmony related experiments like negative harmony and the Lydian Chromatic Concept of tonal harmony etc. Any plans to release it soon?

 

 

Scale Finder tool is also a very streamlined approach to Chord entry. I find this feature making the existing feature set complete though I possibly would not find an immediate use for it since most of my chord entry is MIDI keyboard input or via MPC. However, I see it as a very useful music education and Renoise beginner chord entry tool.

 

 

 

@garrett

 

"Its not really that time consuming to record the chords into a pattern by playing the chords on a midi keyboard, or even a computer keyboard. If someone doesnt know how to build chords in a key its easy to just google that information or use the piano companion app. Its better that way because the more you do it the more you will remember the chord shapes and interval structure.

 

Once you have a chord progression written into renoise, it is also really easy to transpose it.

 

As for the auto-accompaniment part for live playing, is that really necessary or would it be easier to write the chord progressions into patterns first and then press play and play along with your keyboard or another instrument?"

 

 

 

MIDI is the easiest way to enter and preserve human timing and the note sequence as well as modulation and velocity parameters. Computer keyboard makes all of this easy by incorporating both program control and program data entry in one hardware which certainly makes it easy for tracker like editing. I also like the "FULL LEVEL" MPC like 'Velocity' feature in Renoise where you set the velocity levels for all note entry and playback if that is enabled in the transport panel. 

 

However, there are also other valid methods of entering or generating data :

 

1) Sheet music and MIDI export

2) Piano roll and MIDI export

3) Scripts and algorithmic composition tools to MusicXML or MIDI export

4) Wave record input

5) Resampling 

6) VSTi plugins that generate MIDI data or have their internal sequencer

7) BIAB like text chord entry for entire song generation

 

 

I think Renoise is the easiest software I learnt till date considering I took a month to get the ins and outs of Emagic Logic back in school days. I got the hang of every shortcut and feature I needed on the first 2 hours of downloading and reading the manual and completing a song by morning, including the Phrases editor and the Sampler and Track FX commands. Having strong computer foundations certainly helped as well the WOW factor of using the software for the first time, like sleeping with a great looking girl you just met two hours back, trust me on this, you definitely do not need a manual if you are already in bed, cos you just go with the flow. RTFM is a common lingo in our security circles so rest assured a 60 page something document is not what we would even call a manual! Try some debuggers data sheets and you will get the hang of what a manual is. But that speaks volumes about the high intuitiveness of Renoise and superb design that enabled me to do so. 

 

Regarding my "Chord Analysis Skillz", well I just happen to have that for a long time now and its something that I consider a prerequisite for any genres, though mostly becos I have a crush with harmony. BTW you might be amazed with what Jacob Collier can do with his harmony skillz. I personally think in terms of raw ability and sheer talent he beats us all in this generation of musicians when it comes to chops - he sight reads, has perfect pitch, has an immaculate ear, can sing like no tomorrow with a high dynamic range, plays drums/keys/guitar/bass/piano like a boss and already has 2 Grammy Awards at just 22 years old, and he is into music technology as well (knows sidechaining, compression and uses Logic Pro). His Jazz harmony ear is homegrown and his composed harmony sequences are hugely music theory defiant, meaning they make no sense if you try to look at it from a functional perspective. However, if you look at voice leading and tension-resolution approach his harmony makes more sense. June Lee, another youtuber who does his music transcriptions is obviously highly skilled in both transcription and music theory and even he struggles with gettting the chord names.

 

You might imagine musicians round the world with similar skills have thing easy as if there is no need for 1) A guitar tuner 2) Audio recorder 3) Chord or Harmony analyser and 4) Metronome then I suppose you might completely miss the point. When it comes down to composeing in the head or playing something on an instrument - yes things come faster. But if we have a middle man like Renoise to record or enter data in either a passive or active manner i.e. playing or computer data entry, that is another layer of abstraction I have to deal with. I am not talking about deciphering or composing with chords like CM7, dm7, GAug but rather C13b9#11, dmM9b9, BM7#11/G and the infinite substitutions that go in between. Its not about what I or anyone can or cannot do - its got more to do with making the translation process simpler since the music itself can get very very complicated very fast. 

 

Regarding your point on a vertical waveform view - I personally would hate that since it would make my focus shift from my ears and the note entry precision to a regular visual feedback mode. Think about the MPC series all these years - did they have a per pattern or track live waveform view? No. They played and recorded and erased notes and overdubbed new parts and LISTENED to it. Almost exclusively how beats and tunes were made in those machines had nothing to do with a waveform view. In that small LCD screen sampling audio was pretty much the bulk of the routine and they still never had this feature. I think only recently for MPC-X the so called demand for 'visual' candy has increased not to mention the sales factor for new comers, but honestly neither Beethoven or Wagner had a waveform view and neither trackers or MPC beatmakers need one. Sure that is a convenience but I would hate Renoise if it became another Ableton/Bitwig. The solution for me if that happens: I can always stick with older versions :)

 

SIdechaining via Signal Follower is not too optimal in my efforts to get that typical sound. I find Xfer LFO Tool and Cable Guys plugins to be really useful for this sort of thing. 

 

In fact, if there is a VST plugin that can encapsulate the functionality of BIAB, that would work for me too. 

 

I hate the UI of BIAB and many would think we use it to press 1 button and compose : haha so wrong. I mostly use it to rework or extract phrases from Jazz recording and I find the Guitar ChordMelody feature to be very useful for understanding and studying chord voicings for fingerstyle jazz. You see, not everyone thinks the same way - some or many might use it to make tracks, for me I use it to study tracks, not compose but to build the germs that I will use for my next composing sessions. You can think of it like listening to records and choosing what areas to sample next. Rather than that I go and study the very record I am taking it from and then try to flip it here and there. So for me its beatmaking, tracking and music study going all at once.

 

I have a valid Logic Pro X license and a couple other software that are getting less and less use since I found Renoise. In my opinion Noatikl and similar just really suck arse. Even BIAB sucks bigtime if you are stupid enough to think it can actually make a beat for you- like a proper well sampled and programmed hip hop/neo soul instrumental track. The very essence of groove is missing with this package and the rhythm sounds are lifeless with that crappy acoustic real pack drums or basic MIDI output drums. Try generating a 7/4 beat with the Neo Swing on BIAB and let me know how it works for you. Also, if it can sample and trigger a one phrase vocal line in a specific way and add all the requisite fliter, fades and mutes and solos along the way, the day that works out I am selling all my gear and going BIAB full time. 

 

But the functionality for more general music is very good in BIAB, especially for music theory experiments and understanding various techniques. Similarly asking for a basic music theory tool like a Chord Analyser is not all a luxury thing. In fact I saw a video from Ableton on Youtube some months back where the audio engineering team lead was talking about 'thinking' about a Guitar Tuner plugin for Ableton. You might argue that only DJs use it and producers already have a gear filled studio so why would anyone want a guitar tuner. Turns out it became a hit and was internally sanctioned to be included in the package full time. 

 

I also play guitar and I would LOVE to have a tuner in Renoise. Again I can use my ears to tune accordingly and I have other phone apps, but seriously why would Renoise NOT have a guitar tuner if Ableton does. Think about it!

 

 

Mockups are a great idea. Let us see more of them here as drafts. I think a simple sketchpen on white paper and a camera shot uploaded should do for now. Even high apparel gets designed this way. Then once we have a common feature set agreed, we can start with the production code. If there is someone who does VSTi dev then maybe we can go the VSTi route also if it works (definitely more complicated than Lua plugin dev).

 

RAS is not only for the selling point but the benefits are multitude:

1) It becomes less intimidating to new Renoisers

2) It becomes a learning tool itself either for using Renoise, making music itself or learning about music, a playground of sorts if you will.

3) Advanced users can use this as a fast and integrated arranger module.

4) Production, transcription and arranging in general will take a shorter time when well implemented and help in Pattern Note data management as well. 

 

Cons: Beatmakers would hate it :)


Edited by encryptedmind, 19 July 2017 - 21:56.

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#73 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 21:18

 

I am looking for videotutorials in Spanish on the language LUA. If someone finds something interesting, share it.

 

b91706fce79893e99880faef518d16f9.jpg


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:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 18 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 18 July 2017):

Spoiler

#74 Circe

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 21:34

Gracias Raúl ! Es un detalle.

#75 encryptedmind

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Posted 19 July 2017 - 21:54

Thanks Raul, looks good.


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