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RAS - Renoise Accompaniment System


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#176 danoise

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 13:16

I really don't see why should we the new guys go though all the pain of learning bit by bit what took you years to develop and figure out.


Happy you see it that way. Because, yes, apart from making a tool that I use myself, that was indeed the intention. 
 

@danoise: Can you put some extra work into the RAS feature set? Seems with what you have already achieved with XStream, writing a style 2 bar pattern mapping script will be at most a day or twos work for you.

 
As stated in the xStream topic, I hardly have time to finish the new release ATM, so I can't fully participate on this project. But what I can offer - and what you'll need anyway - is guidance.
Because, it's really about getting familiar with a trinity of things:
1. intimate knowledge of Renoise itself (FX commands, note columns and group tracks, you name it...),
2. the Renoise API - what can it do, what it can't do. You don't have to know each and every detail, but it helps. 
3. and finally, the xStream API itself - technically, powered by xLib, a library of classes that I've written to provide my own tools with higher-level functionality. 
 
Of course you can jump right in and start using it (user scenario), but once you start writing new models from scratch (developer scenario), things will obviously get a lot more tricky  ;)
You will have moments where you think "WTF, why can't I do this?". And so, this is basically where I see myself as being most useful. Trying to help out, solve problems and making sure that xStream is a good platform for prototyping something like RAS. 
 

The core PSR Styles logic and the Chord Analyzer can be two individual models in XStream. You can simply pipe Model A (Chord Analyzer) to Model B (Styles Mapper).

 
Good that you mention this. Because, precisely thing kind of thing (multiple models, multiple tracks) is what the next version of xStream will offer. 

And due to various changes underneath the hood, it will even be more performant than the current one. I've spent a lot of time finetuning things, and there's still more work to be done there. 
So, while I don't think xStream will be able to live up to FSus4' example of 64 concurrently streaming tracks unless you have a high-powered PC, it's already more than adequate for most performance situations where you are controlling a handful of elements simultaneously.
(as a sidenote: I regularly test my tools on a humble 8 year old netbook to be sure that CPU usage is reasonable)

Edited by danoise, 28 July 2017 - 11:10.

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#177 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 14:25

I now need to learn Lua, that's the only way forward for me since I want to create my own customized tools. You might see more of me in the Lua scripting forums here @renoise.com, as I'll try my best to invest 1-2 hours a week in learning Lua scripting -- that's all I can afford, unfortunately -- and I'll also explore in private some other stuff related to batch creating .xrns files (from a server) for my specific needs.

 

The RAS will be built sooner or later, it's only a matter of time.

 

See you around in Lua land. :)

 

@Fsus4. If true, I want to encourage you to learn to make tools. Really worth it. This way you will not feel tied to the tools of other people, that many have a personal sense, not thought to satisfy the whole community. I have no experience like Danoise or Joule in this. But I no longer consider myself a rookie. So if you need help building anything, do not hesitate to leave your questions here:

 

http://forum.renoise...development-qa/

 

I hope others will follow your example and also they encourage to learn. Surely you will understand Renoise's real abilities better.

 

I have already seen many topics of people asking for things and just waiting for others, like Danoise or Joule to get the job done. It is one thing to ask questions, to discuss the code, and another to ask a solution. As Danoise says, this is like a very thick forest. You can spend many hours creating new and different things. And also you can locate certain limitations. Obviously nothing is perfect.

 

But there are plenty of ideas commented that it is possible to create them using tools. Having said all this, I hope that what is really useful will be integrated into the future under the bonnet of Renoise. For example, in the case of RAS, if in the end a tool was built and really useful, something easily understood by all, can be integrated and optimized under the hood of Renoise.

 

Encouragement Fsus4! If I can, you too!
 
Note: Do you remember last year that we talked about adding a virtual piano to Renoise, or creating a virtual piano that writes notes with mouse? I have already built 2 tools with that capability. Here you have a base: http://forum.renoise...g-buttons-only/ Right now I'm developing another related tool. It's only a matter of time that the things are resolved.
 
Following the advice of Danoise, do not forget to have all this documentation present here: https://github.com/renoise/xrnx
 
..and everything discussed here: http://forum.renoise...e-4#entry359113

Edited by Raul (ulneiz), 27 July 2017 - 14:27.

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:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 26 September 2017):

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#178 encryptedmind

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 19:54

Happy you see it that way. Because, yes, apart from making a tool that I use myself, that was indeed the intention. As stated in the xStream topic, I hardly have time to finish the new release ATM, so I can't fully participate on this project. But what I can offer - and what you'll need anyway - is guidance.Because, it's really about getting familiar with a trinity of things:1. intimate knowledge of Renoise itself (FX commands, note columns and group tracks, you name it...),2. the Renoise API - what can it do, what it can't do. You don't have to know each and every detail, but it helps. 3. and finally, the xStream API itself - technically, powered by xLib, a library of classes that I've written to provide my own tools with higher-level functionality. Of course you can jump right in and start using it (user scenario), but once you start writing new models from scratch (developer scenario), things will obviously get a lot more tricky ;)You will have moments where you think "WTF, why can't I do this?". And so, this is basically where I see myself as being most useful. Trying to help out, solve problems and making sure that xStream is a good platform for prototyping something like RAS. Good that you mention this. Because, precisely thing kind of thing (multiple models, multiple tracks) is what the next version of xStream will offer. And due to various changes underneath the hood, it will even be more performant than the current one. I've spent a lot of time finetuning things, and there's still more work to be done there. So, while I don't think xStream will be able to live up to FSus4' example of 64 concurrently streaming tracks unless you have a high-powered PC, it's already more than adequate for most performance situations where you are controlling a handful of elements simultaneously.(as a sidenote: I regularly test my tools on a humble 8 year old netbook to be sure that CPU usage is reasonable)

Perfect, this is exactly what I was hoping. Its better then that you continue to work on the next version of XStream, which will enable the uses of model piping. In the mean time I have started diving deep in the Renoise APIs and Lua in parallel. I can see some limitations but also a lot of functionality that I can tap in a music sampler and sequencer which is unprecedented really. I mean Max for live is one thing but a programming oriented environment like Renoise has with scripting engine, terminals and debuggers and application APIs is just soo cool, pretty sure Logic and Cubase users don't get to do all this even in a liteweight fashion.:) However VST dev will be a logical step forward once scripting is well learnt. Both are essential in the end.

If @joule and yourself are busy with your own devs for now, I think @raul is the only one available for model development if he pleases to. Of course that you are all willing to guide us if we get stuck somewhere is fantastic.

Edited by encryptedmind, 28 July 2017 - 19:59.

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#179 Renoised

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 19:24

@All

Sorry for the late reply, I was having login probs but looks like it's fixed now (cheers dblue).

 

@Eat Me

Thanks for the links to the Laffik tools, looks nice!

 

@Encryptedmind

Thanks for all your input on this, I just hope it happens!

 

@Garrett

Thanks for the link to those tools, they look awesome but how do I access the things?

I installed them by dropping the file into Renoise, but where are they in the program?

 

@Fsus4

Good luck with your programming venture, and we need more programmers cause it seems as if Joule might keep his cool tools to himself!

 

@Raul

Haz you codedz a RAS yet? ... or as the saying goes ... "Are we there yet?"

 

@Danoise

You sound like you could make a RAS - just sayin'!


Edited by Renoised, 08 August 2017 - 19:28.

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#180 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 14:30

@Renoised. You have returned to these forums. I thought you had grown tired of waiting so long. I think some programmers in these forums are trained to build a "RAS" very similar to the general idea of this topic. But do not expect much when everything is free and the lack of gratitude shines through your absence by observing the amount of downloads of a particular tool and the number of acknowledgments.

 

It would be nice for those users who want a "RAS" to join forces in learning LUA and the Renoise API to try to build something. What can happen is that if another user builds a "RAS", it may not be exactly what you want. In the end, the experience with such a tool will not be as satisfactory, because there is not made to your liking. On the other hand, some tools cost a lot of effort (many hours of work). It is easier to wait for someone else to does the job. Have you ever thought about learning a bit of code? Fsus4 and Encryptedmind are trying. Why not you? The LUA forums are empty ^_^ . It seems that no one has any doubts.

 

Anyway, I hope this theme gets somewhere...


:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

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:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 26 September 2017):

Spoiler

#181 Renoised

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 16:22

But do not expect much when everything is free and the lack of gratitude shines through your absence ...

 

My absence wasn't lack of gratitiude, I was having trouble logging-in these last couple of weeks!

 

I'm very grateful that the coders here even talk between themselves about it.  I tend to keep quiet when that happens cause there's nothing constructive I can add.  It's best I just keep quiet and watch the coders here discuss among themselves, I don't want to interrupt the flow of conversation when that happens.

 

As for me learning to code, like I said, not possible right now cause I have a bunch of other stuff I need to concentrate on, and learning to code would eat too much into that.



#182 Renoised

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 20:08

If you've ever seen that movie called "28 Days Later", well that's what it feels like in here all of a sudden, I can hear my own voice echo off the forum walls!

 

Hello, anybody there? ...there? ...there? ...

 

WTF - They're all dead!

 

Stop messing around, I'm serious, what's going on? ...on? ...on? ...

 

Bunch of wise-asses playing games ... I'll make 'em speak.

 

Strip show, live, right now, in the club over here! ...here! ...here! ...

 

Fuck, they must be dead!

 

Funny smell around here as well.  And look at her over there, talk about hot, pity she's not breathing!  Fuck, what am I gonna do, they're all dead, everyones dead.  I mean you see this sort of situation in the movies but nothing really prepares you for the feeling of complete emptiness when it actually arrives.  I don't know what to say, or think.  My mind is in overdrive.  I'm the only human alive so I own the world!  But do I really want that?  Come to think of it, yes I do, but at least the little bastards could have created RAS before they died!

 

A month later ... and this is gonna take some getting used to.  I can have anything and everything I ever wanted, all mine, all now, without cost.  I have enough fuel to run the Countach for a thousand lifetimes, and I've the motorways all to myself.  I could get my electricity from the sun, and I could grow proper organic vegetables - so life is good!

 

I can do all of that ... but ... but there is no RAS ... and not even Joule managed to pull a RAS from his ass before he died - and that hat though!

Fucking hell, why now ...

 

WHY NOW!!! ...NOW!!! ...NOW!!! ...


Edited by Renoised, 14 August 2017 - 12:26.

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#183 joule

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 20:24

Edit: Deleted


Edited by joule, 10 January 2018 - 16:25.

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#184 Renoised

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 12:14

Joule!!! ...Joule!!! ...Joule!!! ...

 

Joule is that you? ...you? ...you? ...
 

It's natural I'd hear voices after being subjected to all this.  The mind can play some crazy tricks, everyone knew that.

I need something to keep me sane.  I could keep a diary, that might help.

 

And listen to that wind howling away ... just listen to it ... it's ... it's beautiful.

You know ... I forgot how beautiful desolation and isolation can be.

 

Screw the diary, this is amazing.

From today I am at peace with the world .... with my world.


Edited by Renoised, 14 August 2017 - 20:10.

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#185 joule

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 20:37

Edit: Deleted


Edited by joule, 10 January 2018 - 16:25.


#186 Renoised

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 23:25

Cheers Joule, took a quick look and I assume you're talking about MIDI Effects?

That ain't no RAS, man, it's better than nothing but it's nowhere near as cool as a RAS would be!

 

You need to get coding right away :D



#187 joule

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 09:09

Edit: Deleted


Edited by joule, 10 January 2018 - 16:25.


#188 Renoised

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 15:32

You'll have to do better than that :walkman:

 

Ok, I'm sorry about what I said about your hat, I think it's a great hat :D



#189 encryptedmind

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 13:16

MFX does what Logic and others have been doing mostly as a set of parameter options that can be used real time, and then skinning a user interface over it and publishing on the vst format. It's just a separated set of midi processing functionality as individual vst plugins. Granted it's good work nonetheless but it's not what an arrangement system will be. The chord analyser, transposed etc have to be seamless and self contained. Ableton also has midi FX but I would never think that was for midi arrangment generation, mostly midi manipulation or chord detection, which is actually the starting point of any arrangement generator and not necessarily the key feature. I have used Cakewalk rather deeply when I first encountered Cakewalk Plasma and Cakewalk Home Studio in my school days (printed out the 600 page manual) before I came to Sonar and they are all the same products basically from a same code base as well. It was a great introduction to Windows audio and music production, it has sheet music and piano roll as well as midi sequencing and audio tracks as well and its feature set was rather extensive for its time. Also in those days I used to hang out in HitSquad.com downloading various softwares and trying them out. Now it's defunkt though. Good ol' days when life was simple and computer music was cheesy but innovative.

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#190 joule

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 13:28

Edit: Deleted


Edited by joule, 10 January 2018 - 16:25.


#191 encryptedmind

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 13:48

Apparently I was talking about Cakewalk MFX midi fx.

https://www.cakewalk...Plug-ins.3.html

I found a decently compiled list of mfx. -
http://www.midiplugins.com

And the RAS clone that can certainly work as a Renoise testing prototype or even full use is at-

http://www.midi-plug...ins/VirtualBand

Virtual band is a great looking plugin that no one seems to have talked about for some reason. The developer is German and has quite a few dedicated tools on his website. Maybe this is what we were looking for.

Edited by encryptedmind, 07 September 2017 - 13:49.

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#192 Renoised

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Posted 26 November 2017 - 15:02

I could hardly contain my excitement when I heard about RAS being complete and ready for release :w00t:
So who was it who sent me that very welcome telepathic message?

And where is it then? :dribble:

 



#193 Renoised

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Posted 30 November 2017 - 22:01

Must have been 'magining it :unsure:

 

Anyway, best of luck to anyone working on RAS (or something like it).

Will check back next year to see if there are any developments.  I definitely need something like RAS in Renoise before I'd buy a licence.  It's a great (excellent) sound design tool but it's definitely lacking in the same way most DAW's do, meaning it's not constructive to actually working-out or 'writing' music (and by "music" I mean music of the caliber that, say, ABBA produced, stuff that sounds like well-written, harmonically well-crafted music rather than some loony rattling away cluelessly).  For me personally, Cubase is the closest DAW to that due to it's chord track and accompaniment system, so I've decided to stick to Cubase until the other DAW's catch-up and realise they need to start concentrating on the actual writing and construction of music, chords, harmony etc - not more synths.

I'll miss using Renoise due to it's power in sound design, definitely, but it completely does my head in having to work between two or more programs all the time, so I really hope we see RAS some day, nicely integrated.


 


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#194 encryptedmind

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 16:27

@Renoised : Well @Raul has his new tool VPDPro coming up which looks really cool and features many of our features in this thread, like the chord pads and interesting things like the visual metronome which makes sense in a classical composition or even classical performance since as you would expect, conductors wave their baton or hand and not make 'tic toc' noises with their mouth.

My suggestion is to take it easy and take it comfortably as well.No need to rush in everything and just give it some time. You can make AABA songs rather too easily in just four Pattern blocks if you fit it that way. Some jazz standards are just 10 bars long. Repeat that for 3 times and there you have it, a complete jazz standard. It seems you are wanting to use Renoise in a rather conventional DAW fashion which is nothing wrong inherently since that may be what you are comfortable with, but it's not required to huff at what you can really do in Renoise, just becos you are not getting your RAS today evening :) You can always use Renoise later once Cubase bores you... Or maybe if you rather prefer to do a Groovebox workflow like thing on your laptop or maybe do audio editing intuitively and fast using the laptop keyboard and so on..take your pick, no need to hurry.

Edited by encryptedmind, 28 December 2017 - 16:29.

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#195 Renoised

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 20:29

I wasn't aware of Raul's VPDPro until you mentioned it.  I just had to check out his post listings in order to find and read about it.  Was going to compliment him in his thread, but thought I'd better not as I got scalderd last time I spoke in the scripting forum, me not being a coder :P

Well done Raul, looks very interesting, inventive, and nicely laid out etc, but as far as I can tell, it's some sort of automatic composer, am I right?
Personally, I have no interest in automatic composition or song structuring systems, but I can see why people wanting to get into orchestration would find it extremely useful (if it's what I'm thinking it is).

 

Vic, you are perfectly correct, there's no rush, not in a critical sense, anyway.  But it's not as simple as that, not for people like me.  While I've remained quiet, I've been watching all those threads Barret started about chords and inversions and all that sort of stuff.  And frustrating as it was for me, I tried yet again to get my head into some sort of 'learning mode' if you like, to put myself in a frame of mind suited to learning such things.  Unfortunately, that stuff just isn't for me, I simply cannot learn it without so much effort that it would destroy any enjoyment I could ever get out of it as a result.  I started at an early age, I'm basically self-taught through my own 'trial and error' approach.  I tried music school once, and it was decided even then, that perhaps I'd learnt too much on my own, that it put me at a disadvantage being taught the way people are generally taught.

While that sounds a bit dramatic, what also became obvious is that being self-taught, doing things my own way 'by ear', not being able to read a note of music, and being totally clueless as to the naming of chords etc, also comes with one very special advantage!  The advantage is that people such as myself are not producing music based on the same theory that is taught to music students all over the world.  A music student will come-up with music. melodies, and arrangements that are a direct result of the what happens when he/she performs based on the theory they were taught.  That's a disadvantage, it's a sort of 'vice' that self-taught people can never fall foul of.

So yes, you are correct, there is no rush for those with musical training, but at the same time, there is for loners such as myself, who do it our own way.  What you need to understand is that, contrary to what you might think, the amount of people who have music theory behind them is a drop in the ocean compared to the amount of people out there who use DAWs, wanting to compose their own tracks.  The only reason I've not produced any tracks is because I need a tool to hear chords on the fly, to rearrange them on the fly, and to build my tracks that way.  None of that is automatic, because using such tools still ultimately relies upon myself to decide what chord I want, and where I want to put it, see?

So in that sense, there is a rush, a very real one, cause believe me, when you've been playing around with audio and worksations for what must be a few decades now, it gets frustrating that I still cannot put a complete track together with the sort of non-disruptive ease I expect to be able to do.  The closest software I found to helping me do that in Renoise, was ChordPulse.  I love it, but it's not integrated, and doesn't allow custom styles.

You seem to think that producing music of the caliber ABBA produced is easy, but I am here to tell you right now, it is not.  There is so much craftsmanship in their tracks, it's mindblowing, perhaps appreciated all the more by people like myself because we can 'pick up' on the fact that their music is absolutely not your avarage run of the mill stuff.  What might shock you is that neither of the two writers in ABBA, Benny and Bjorn, could read music, either!  This is a little known fact, but it's one that makes me smile, because it makes them the worlds best example of what doing things your own way can achieve in the world of popular music.  In other words, I neither have any interest in music theory, nor do I want to know, really.  What matters is my ears, and the ability to decide what makes a good chord progression, what makes a good melody.  I can do both those things, I just that I need a tool to help me hear it on the fly, and I want that tool integrating into my 'song-making' environment so that I can work in a truly non-disruptive fashion.

RAS would do that, so on the one hand, as others like me often do, I feel frustrated that I don't understand the 'theory' behind music, but on the other, give me the right tool and I could blow minds!

Using ChordPulse, I've created a whole bunch of chord progressions, extremely complex progressions that were decided by my own ears and mind working together to make those musical decisions, they were not made by the computer or any form of 'music theory'.  I can be 100% certain of this, simply because I don't understand music theory!  I'm proud of what I come up with, they would form the backbone of some very nice tracks in my opinion, but that is never going to happen until I have an integrated system that allows me to instantly hear my own patterns playing in whatever chord I choose - which again - is a craving that RAS would satisfy perfectly.

 

I'm well aware that people who understand theory find it hard, and in some cases, impossible to understand those who are self-taught and work by ear.  There's a woman on YouTube, a respected teacher of music theory, who by her own admission, is taken back by how those who compose and play by ear, actually manage it (and she understands music theory inside out).  It's like she has a somewhat puzzled admiration for those who can do it, which is kinda nice really, because those of us who are daunted at the very thought of 'music theory', often feel the same way about those of you with music theory behind you.

 


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#196 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 21:21

I wasn't aware of Raul's VPDPro until you mentioned it.  I just had to check out his post listings in order to find and read about it.  Was going to compliment him in his thread, but thought I'd better not as I got scalderd last time I spoke in the scripting forum, me not being a coder :P

 

Any user can comment in any forum, as long as he does so with respect towards his peers. Of course!  ^_^  But I will tell you that I did not like your comment against Joule's hat.  :P

 

 

Well done Raul, looks very interesting, inventive, and nicely laid out etc, but as far as I can tell, it's some sort of automatic composer, am I right?
Personally, I have no interest in automatic composition or song structuring systems, but I can see why people wanting to get into orchestration would find it extremely useful (if it's what I'm thinking it is).

 

 

I get the feeling that you do not understand very well so that they are the most tools. Most of the tools, at least mine, are designed to save time, precisely to gain it in order to be more creative when composing, to waste time in composing, not in other things. They have nothing to do with automatic composition. On the other hand, my tools have a very personal sense, and they have to do with learning, to practice with LUA. They are several things.

 

Moreover, if it were electronic or experimental music, with many sections that are repetitions again and again, it would be reasonable. I have tried to orient some of my tools for orchestral composition, which has nothing automatic. This is not uncommon to be organized, or to create tools that help you play chords, or to create automation curves, or to rebuild your composition template, with colors and names ordered. Things like that.

 
However, you seem to ask for a RAS that is more linked to creating automatic music. Let him play his chords and on top of having the accompaniments and things like that integrated. It is a pity that there are no users who want to learn and take their ideas forward. If you had learned LUA since you started this forum, now you would have your RAS half built, without expecting magic from others. RAS will never be built, because you do not build it. It is too complex a tool for someone to build it to satisfy others for free. Even paying. The situation for many months that is very stagnant, like to waste time on these things.
 
Why do I tell you all this? Most people who make their tools for Renoise have a personal sense, to satisfy themselves. They are not thinking about creating a tool to make others happy. Well, maybe Danoise creates some tool at someone's request. But he will always have his manias, his way of programming. It is very difficult to fit your thoughts, your desires. You will always see the tools of others as something unhelpful, because it is not exactly what you want, exactly your idea.
 
Therefore, I think it is advisable to learn to create each one's own tools, because there is no other solution. Do not expect Renoise to have a RAS integrated in future versions, because its creator is not you. Their authors think in a certain way, and waste their time in what they want. But any user can learn to make their tools to adapt Renoise a little more to their personal tastes. There is no more history. You can have a lot of help in forums to build tools. But to expect someone else to believe a certain tool I see it very far away. There is no motivation. If Renoise had more support, more versions and improvements, people would be more encouraged to participate in these larger projects. So, I do not think so.

:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 26 September 2017):

Spoiler

#197 Renoised

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 00:17

Actually, I have to be extremely cautious how I speak about Joule's hat, especially as he seems to be the programming-capable version of myself.  And by that, I don't mean we have the same taste in hats, or even the same taste in anything, but we do think alike in terms of what would make a good tool to have in Renoise.  I was impressed enough by what he showed first, but then he showed that sound tool as well and I thought, fuck, this dude might have the worst (best) hat ever, but this guy obviously has a talent for spotting what is missing from Renoise, and I realised, at that very moment, that I must do my very best in order to get him to part with the fruits of that talent!

So far Joule has failed to release those products on what, I'm sure, would be a very grateful Renoise-using bunch of peeps if he did!
So far ... but I have an evil plan to blow smoke up his ass, and tell him how wonderful his hat is!

As for your own tool, I was just guessing what it was, but I do agree, the tools I see being released for Renoise often seem personal, as in something that has been designed for a specific persons workflow.  But as I said a few posts back, there's always Cubase and it's excellent chord and accompaniment system.  The only trouble I have with Cubase is that I suspect it will eventually go the subscription route, so I'm trying to drop it as my main DAW, and not only that, I much prefer Renoise as a sound design tool anyway.  So it's not the end of the world if Renoise doesn't get a RAS-like system implemented (cause I'll just stick to whatever the latest non-subscription version of Cubase is), but it I still do hope that maybe the developer of Renoise will realise something very important, something I said earlier ...

DAW's have reached a point where the developers are generally choked for ideas in order to sell the next version.  This is completely laughable considering the whole point of a DAW is to produce music.  In order to produce quality music, it would surely be welcomed with open arms, anything that aids in the creation of quality music.  In other words, it cannot possibly be more important to provide yet more synths, more compressors, more tracks, more reverbs, more samples etc.  Really, it's about time the developers of DAWs in general started to realise this, and to be honest, after seeing the popularity of the chord and accompaniment sytem in Cubase, Steinberg were the first to realise it.  I think the chord and accompaniment system Steinberg added to Cubase was the most important addition the program ever recieved since it's release.

The music uploaded from users of DAWs with well-designed, well-implemented music development tools, will increasingly start to outshine those who use the DAWs that lack those essential features.  Give it a few more years for the other developers to work it out, and the penny will finally drop that people buy this stuff because they want to make music, and they want to write the best music possible.  As time goes on, YouTube uploads from users of the various DAWs out there will prove to you what I'm talking about here.

It's only natural that if you provide users with a quality song-writing tool, that the stuff they produce will outshine that of those who don't have access to such musically liberating tools in their DAW.

 


Edited by Renoised, 29 December 2017 - 00:22.


#198 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 02:06

@Renoised, Without expanding much ^_^, most first-level DAWs are not there to create quality music, they are for selling and earning money. They are still a product, and this unfortunately has nothing to do with musical production. Obviously, to sell more they try to offer better features. In fact, the current business model seems to work like a clock. Every so often, a version of the same product is updated with 4 new features and some filler content, such as sample libraries, and that's it, you'll keep selling the same product with a slight change. And so on continually. People seem to respond well to this way of selling, despite how saturated the market is. If a slight change of image already serves to continue selling.

 

Possibly we continue like this for many more years. It is similar to what happens with many consumer electronic products, such as televisions, mobile phones or even cars. Each year, it's time to sell the same as last year but see it differently, and at the same time with some improvement, new feature and some improved performance.

 

Regarding producing quality music, this depends directly on the composer, his musical abilities and the control of his DAW, much more than the DAW itself. For more super tools that have a DAW, if the user does not know how to compose, it will not get quality songs.

 

For this it is better to know and know, the more the better, both the musical theory and having good hearing. Only then will you find fewer limitations when it comes to getting your song. If you also have the possibility to build your own tools, there is nothing better than that.

 

Regardless of the current business model that is a very skilful form of programmed obsolescence, and of the quality in the productions, I want people to realize the enormous potential of Renoise, and that people want it to improve and keep evolving , although they use another DAW as a companion, precisely because Renoise is the only decent Tracker that there is today, and deserves special treatment and care and continuity for being the work that it is.

 

Including more features in Renoise such as a RAS, a different Matrix or even a pianoroll could be excessive features that de-virtualize the essence of this DAW in the form of a tracker.

 

The most logical is to draw a line that follows the course of improvement, improving what is already existing, further optimizing the program and improving its GUI for high resolutions. Make a better pattern editor, more controls with editing with the mouse, like being able to change the notes in the pattern editor by simply turning the mouse wheel, things like that. And keep the improvements in the LUA API. In the end, adding requests from specific users will only satisfy a few, and every decision to add some feature seems to be very thoughtful, precisely to not saturate a DAW already full of features.

 

Some users comment that they leave the complaints aside and learn at once to use everything that Renoise offers. And they are right. However, there are also people who know and know Renoise quite well and realize that there is a good room for improvement. Then do not confuse one thing with the other. Add a RAS with all this context of by means, when the main responsible is "disappeared" working on something else for many months, it seems unthinkable. Some even wonder if there really will be a new version, with the amount of suggestions and even failures that have been found for months and that have no solution.

 

I myself had no idea of LUA for months to create tools. But I love Renoise, I love to compose with him too (I also use FL Studio), but I would like to use only one DAW and just with Renoise I'm going much faster than with any DAW with pianoroll, and in this to be creative and productive of quality , the speed of expressing ideas is more important than anything else.

 

If you can create tools to go faster, you can close the circle. FL Studio or Cubase does not allow you to create custom tools. So Renoise, once again, is the winner. They can also suggest using two DAWs to compose songs, when one product is substituting the other.

 

But in the end all these comments do not matter in the least. Think that in the end, at the time of producing your songs you will be alone, both in Cubase and with Renoise. If you need something, the best thing is to learn to achieve it for yourself, both in knowing the music and in coding a program to your liking to improve your music.

 

Learn, learn and learn... With Renoise, that person who dominates this DAW perfectly to compose music, is still halfway there. He still needs to learn the documentation of the available API and the LUA language to create his own tools.


Edited by Raul (ulneiz), 29 December 2017 - 02:15.

:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 26 September 2017):

Spoiler

#199 lettuce

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 06:34

edit : deleted


Edited by lettuce, 16 January 2018 - 04:14.


#200 joule

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 10:20

Edit: Deleted


Edited by joule, 10 January 2018 - 16:25.

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