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RAS - Renoise Accompaniment System


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#176 danoise

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 13:16

I really don't see why should we the new guys go though all the pain of learning bit by bit what took you years to develop and figure out.


Happy you see it that way. Because, yes, apart from making a tool that I use myself, that was indeed the intention. 
 

@danoise: Can you put some extra work into the RAS feature set? Seems with what you have already achieved with XStream, writing a style 2 bar pattern mapping script will be at most a day or twos work for you.

 
As stated in the xStream topic, I hardly have time to finish the new release ATM, so I can't fully participate on this project. But what I can offer - and what you'll need anyway - is guidance.
Because, it's really about getting familiar with a trinity of things:
1. intimate knowledge of Renoise itself (FX commands, note columns and group tracks, you name it...),
2. the Renoise API - what can it do, what it can't do. You don't have to know each and every detail, but it helps. 
3. and finally, the xStream API itself - technically, powered by xLib, a library of classes that I've written to provide my own tools with higher-level functionality. 
 
Of course you can jump right in and start using it (user scenario), but once you start writing new models from scratch (developer scenario), things will obviously get a lot more tricky  ;)
You will have moments where you think "WTF, why can't I do this?". And so, this is basically where I see myself as being most useful. Trying to help out, solve problems and making sure that xStream is a good platform for prototyping something like RAS. 
 

The core PSR Styles logic and the Chord Analyzer can be two individual models in XStream. You can simply pipe Model A (Chord Analyzer) to Model B (Styles Mapper).

 
Good that you mention this. Because, precisely thing kind of thing (multiple models, multiple tracks) is what the next version of xStream will offer. 

And due to various changes underneath the hood, it will even be more performant than the current one. I've spent a lot of time finetuning things, and there's still more work to be done there. 
So, while I don't think xStream will be able to live up to FSus4' example of 64 concurrently streaming tracks unless you have a high-powered PC, it's already more than adequate for most performance situations where you are controlling a handful of elements simultaneously.
(as a sidenote: I regularly test my tools on a humble 8 year old netbook to be sure that CPU usage is reasonable)

Edited by danoise, 28 July 2017 - 11:10.

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#177 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 27 July 2017 - 14:25

I now need to learn Lua, that's the only way forward for me since I want to create my own customized tools. You might see more of me in the Lua scripting forums here @renoise.com, as I'll try my best to invest 1-2 hours a week in learning Lua scripting -- that's all I can afford, unfortunately -- and I'll also explore in private some other stuff related to batch creating .xrns files (from a server) for my specific needs.

 

The RAS will be built sooner or later, it's only a matter of time.

 

See you around in Lua land. :)

 

@Fsus4. If true, I want to encourage you to learn to make tools. Really worth it. This way you will not feel tied to the tools of other people, that many have a personal sense, not thought to satisfy the whole community. I have no experience like Danoise or Joule in this. But I no longer consider myself a rookie. So if you need help building anything, do not hesitate to leave your questions here:

 

http://forum.renoise...development-qa/

 

I hope others will follow your example and also they encourage to learn. Surely you will understand Renoise's real abilities better.

 

I have already seen many topics of people asking for things and just waiting for others, like Danoise or Joule to get the job done. It is one thing to ask questions, to discuss the code, and another to ask a solution. As Danoise says, this is like a very thick forest. You can spend many hours creating new and different things. And also you can locate certain limitations. Obviously nothing is perfect.

 

But there are plenty of ideas commented that it is possible to create them using tools. Having said all this, I hope that what is really useful will be integrated into the future under the bonnet of Renoise. For example, in the case of RAS, if in the end a tool was built and really useful, something easily understood by all, can be integrated and optimized under the hood of Renoise.

 

Encouragement Fsus4! If I can, you too!
 
Note: Do you remember last year that we talked about adding a virtual piano to Renoise, or creating a virtual piano that writes notes with mouse? I have already built 2 tools with that capability. Here you have a base: http://forum.renoise...g-buttons-only/ Right now I'm developing another related tool. It's only a matter of time that the things are resolved.
 
Following the advice of Danoise, do not forget to have all this documentation present here: https://github.com/renoise/xrnx
 
..and everything discussed here: http://forum.renoise...e-4#entry359113

Edited by Raul (ulneiz), 27 July 2017 - 14:27.

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:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 26 September 2017):

Spoiler

#178 encryptedmind

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Posted 28 July 2017 - 19:54

Happy you see it that way. Because, yes, apart from making a tool that I use myself, that was indeed the intention. As stated in the xStream topic, I hardly have time to finish the new release ATM, so I can't fully participate on this project. But what I can offer - and what you'll need anyway - is guidance.Because, it's really about getting familiar with a trinity of things:1. intimate knowledge of Renoise itself (FX commands, note columns and group tracks, you name it...),2. the Renoise API - what can it do, what it can't do. You don't have to know each and every detail, but it helps. 3. and finally, the xStream API itself - technically, powered by xLib, a library of classes that I've written to provide my own tools with higher-level functionality. Of course you can jump right in and start using it (user scenario), but once you start writing new models from scratch (developer scenario), things will obviously get a lot more tricky ;)You will have moments where you think "WTF, why can't I do this?". And so, this is basically where I see myself as being most useful. Trying to help out, solve problems and making sure that xStream is a good platform for prototyping something like RAS. Good that you mention this. Because, precisely thing kind of thing (multiple models, multiple tracks) is what the next version of xStream will offer. And due to various changes underneath the hood, it will even be more performant than the current one. I've spent a lot of time finetuning things, and there's still more work to be done there. So, while I don't think xStream will be able to live up to FSus4' example of 64 concurrently streaming tracks unless you have a high-powered PC, it's already more than adequate for most performance situations where you are controlling a handful of elements simultaneously.(as a sidenote: I regularly test my tools on a humble 8 year old netbook to be sure that CPU usage is reasonable)

Perfect, this is exactly what I was hoping. Its better then that you continue to work on the next version of XStream, which will enable the uses of model piping. In the mean time I have started diving deep in the Renoise APIs and Lua in parallel. I can see some limitations but also a lot of functionality that I can tap in a music sampler and sequencer which is unprecedented really. I mean Max for live is one thing but a programming oriented environment like Renoise has with scripting engine, terminals and debuggers and application APIs is just soo cool, pretty sure Logic and Cubase users don't get to do all this even in a liteweight fashion.:) However VST dev will be a logical step forward once scripting is well learnt. Both are essential in the end.

If @joule and yourself are busy with your own devs for now, I think @raul is the only one available for model development if he pleases to. Of course that you are all willing to guide us if we get stuck somewhere is fantastic.

Edited by encryptedmind, 28 July 2017 - 19:59.

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#179 Renoised

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Posted 08 August 2017 - 19:24

@All

Sorry for the late reply, I was having login probs but looks like it's fixed now (cheers dblue).

 

@Eat Me

Thanks for the links to the Laffik tools, looks nice!

 

@Encryptedmind

Thanks for all your input on this, I just hope it happens!

 

@Garrett

Thanks for the link to those tools, they look awesome but how do I access the things?

I installed them by dropping the file into Renoise, but where are they in the program?

 

@Fsus4

Good luck with your programming venture, and we need more programmers cause it seems as if Joule might keep his cool tools to himself!

 

@Raul

Haz you codedz a RAS yet? ... or as the saying goes ... "Are we there yet?"

 

@Danoise

You sound like you could make a RAS - just sayin'!


Edited by Renoised, 08 August 2017 - 19:28.

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#180 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 14:30

@Renoised. You have returned to these forums. I thought you had grown tired of waiting so long. I think some programmers in these forums are trained to build a "RAS" very similar to the general idea of this topic. But do not expect much when everything is free and the lack of gratitude shines through your absence by observing the amount of downloads of a particular tool and the number of acknowledgments.

 

It would be nice for those users who want a "RAS" to join forces in learning LUA and the Renoise API to try to build something. What can happen is that if another user builds a "RAS", it may not be exactly what you want. In the end, the experience with such a tool will not be as satisfactory, because there is not made to your liking. On the other hand, some tools cost a lot of effort (many hours of work). It is easier to wait for someone else to does the job. Have you ever thought about learning a bit of code? Fsus4 and Encryptedmind are trying. Why not you? The LUA forums are empty ^_^ . It seems that no one has any doubts.

 

Anyway, I hope this theme gets somewhere...


:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 26 September 2017):

Spoiler

#181 Renoised

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Posted 09 August 2017 - 16:22

But do not expect much when everything is free and the lack of gratitude shines through your absence ...

 

My absence wasn't lack of gratitiude, I was having trouble logging-in these last couple of weeks!

 

I'm very grateful that the coders here even talk between themselves about it.  I tend to keep quiet when that happens cause there's nothing constructive I can add.  It's best I just keep quiet and watch the coders here discuss among themselves, I don't want to interrupt the flow of conversation when that happens.

 

As for me learning to code, like I said, not possible right now cause I have a bunch of other stuff I need to concentrate on, and learning to code would eat too much into that.



#182 Renoised

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 20:08

If you've ever seen that movie called "28 Days Later", well that's what it feels like in here all of a sudden, I can hear my own voice echo off the forum walls!

 

Hello, anybody there? ...there? ...there? ...

 

WTF - They're all dead!

 

Stop messing around, I'm serious, what's going on? ...on? ...on? ...

 

Bunch of wise-asses playing games ... I'll make 'em speak.

 

Strip show, live, right now, in the club over here! ...here! ...here! ...

 

Fuck, they must be dead!

 

Funny smell around here as well.  And look at her over there, talk about hot, pity she's not breathing!  Fuck, what am I gonna do, they're all dead, everyones dead.  I mean you see this sort of situation in the movies but nothing really prepares you for the feeling of complete emptiness when it actually arrives.  I don't know what to say, or think.  My mind is in overdrive.  I'm the only human alive so I own the world!  But do I really want that?  Come to think of it, yes I do, but at least the little bastards could have created RAS before they died!

 

A month later ... and this is gonna take some getting used to.  I can have anything and everything I ever wanted, all mine, all now, without cost.  I have enough fuel to run the Countach for a thousand lifetimes, and I've the motorways all to myself.  I could get my electricity from the sun, and I could grow proper organic vegetables - so life is good!

 

I can do all of that ... but ... but there is no RAS ... and not even Joule managed to pull a RAS from his ass before he died - and that hat though!

Fucking hell, why now ...

 

WHY NOW!!! ...NOW!!! ...NOW!!! ...


Edited by Renoised, 14 August 2017 - 12:26.

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#183 joule

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Posted 12 August 2017 - 20:24

:D

 

Don't involve me. Appearantly, my vision is not "RAS". I prefer an offline/"auto-render on pattern edit" system rather than live-streaming from midi. At least in Renoise. Live-rendering pattern data from MIDI input is not a priority to me at all. It's not the most productive or simple idea - but more of a "nicety".

 

A VSTi version would be the most sensible  - although pretty unusable in Renoise due to sub-par VSTi/midi workflow. You could probably even make proper money out of that idea, as it would beat all stupid arpeggiators (cthulhu et c). Especially if you could populate the database with tracks from yamaha styles. And, preferably, even edit them. A VSTi like that, in a conventional DAW, would beat anything we have conceived so far.


Edited by joule, 12 August 2017 - 20:26.

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#184 Renoised

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Posted 14 August 2017 - 12:14

Joule!!! ...Joule!!! ...Joule!!! ...

 

Joule is that you? ...you? ...you? ...
 

It's natural I'd hear voices after being subjected to all this.  The mind can play some crazy tricks, everyone knew that.

I need something to keep me sane.  I could keep a diary, that might help.

 

And listen to that wind howling away ... just listen to it ... it's ... it's beautiful.

You know ... I forgot how beautiful desolation and isolation can be.

 

Screw the diary, this is amazing.

From today I am at peace with the world .... with my world.


Edited by Renoised, 14 August 2017 - 20:10.

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#185 joule

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 20:37

I just wanted to mention that there is a vst available for this (both offline and live usage) if you're into cakewalk or cubase. It took me years to find, so you have to Google it for yourself lol. Hint: mfx

#186 Renoised

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Posted 05 September 2017 - 23:25

Cheers Joule, took a quick look and I assume you're talking about MIDI Effects?

That ain't no RAS, man, it's better than nothing but it's nowhere near as cool as a RAS would be!

 

You need to get coding right away :D



#187 joule

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 09:09

@Renoised,

 

You'll have to do better than that :walkman:



#188 Renoised

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Posted 06 September 2017 - 15:32

You'll have to do better than that :walkman:

 

Ok, I'm sorry about what I said about your hat, I think it's a great hat :D



#189 encryptedmind

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 13:16

MFX does what Logic and others have been doing mostly as a set of parameter options that can be used real time, and then skinning a user interface over it and publishing on the vst format. It's just a separated set of midi processing functionality as individual vst plugins. Granted it's good work nonetheless but it's not what an arrangement system will be. The chord analyser, transposed etc have to be seamless and self contained. Ableton also has midi FX but I would never think that was for midi arrangment generation, mostly midi manipulation or chord detection, which is actually the starting point of any arrangement generator and not necessarily the key feature. I have used Cakewalk rather deeply when I first encountered Cakewalk Plasma and Cakewalk Home Studio in my school days (printed out the 600 page manual) before I came to Sonar and they are all the same products basically from a same code base as well. It was a great introduction to Windows audio and music production, it has sheet music and piano roll as well as midi sequencing and audio tracks as well and its feature set was rather extensive for its time. Also in those days I used to hang out in HitSquad.com downloading various softwares and trying them out. Now it's defunkt though. Good ol' days when life was simple and computer music was cheesy but innovative.

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#190 joule

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 13:28

Just FYI, your assumptions are false regarding what can be done with mfx.



#191 encryptedmind

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Posted 07 September 2017 - 13:48

Apparently I was talking about Cakewalk MFX midi fx.

https://www.cakewalk...Plug-ins.3.html

I found a decently compiled list of mfx. -
http://www.midiplugins.com

And the RAS clone that can certainly work as a Renoise testing prototype or even full use is at-

http://www.midi-plug...ins/VirtualBand

Virtual band is a great looking plugin that no one seems to have talked about for some reason. The developer is German and has quite a few dedicated tools on his website. Maybe this is what we were looking for.

Edited by encryptedmind, 07 September 2017 - 13:49.

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