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Renoise, my thoughts


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#1 AKM

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Posted 15 August 2017 - 23:19

Hi,
 
I am the classical pianist through all my life and an audio technology enthusiast through the half of it. I'm from the middle of Russia, started learning audio stuff in late 90-s without anybody around to ask, no Dj's, no internet, no anything. No computer. Just some radio stations and a pirated Prodigy tapes. Almost sold my kidney to get myself a real synth, Korg X3. To my biggest surprise I was not able to make a TB303 sounds with it (did not know about TB303 at all) - it just had no resonance control on filters. So this type of sounds was a mystery for me for years. Even when I got a PC later, even with appearance of the internet I did not know about some stuff for years again, simply because I did not have the idea that I should just ask how this or this was done on some audio-forums.
 
Throught time I was reading/watching everything around, tried nearly all existing audio software. I'm pretty much sure that I downloaded Renoise at some point but got the immediate impression that it is just some weird old fashion nostalgia thing that I immediately uninstalled and got myself back to Cubase.
 
Just a few weeks ago I read the article about the trackers and Apex Twin on CDM.link. So I got myself into Renoise demo, bought it a bit later. It is SO SAD the marketing for Renoise is so poor. Just mentioning that Apex Twin used/using it would be a huge deal. But the most convincing to me was this video youtu.be/gSj92M0N65M and alike. Also I immediately realized how many tracks I listened in the past was made it trackers. Overall I learned the software quite quickly and totally love it. For certain "creative" type of music it is just the best one around. For styles like Techno, Jungle, IDM in is just the best one. Certainly I would not ever recommend it for band / classical recordings, also I don't think it is the best choice for casual cinematic soundtrack MIDI stuff. But for type of guys who are into Max/MSP, Reaktor, modulars stuff it is a must.
 
What exactly I enjoy about it? a) It is different. Yes, you can do exact same things in any DAW, but the design have a huge impact on your "thinking", I really enjoy how Renoise influence the process, and, again, it IS different. b) It is more quick and comfortable with it's "digits" - I tremendously enjoy to be able to fast and precisely tweak the settings, and to see them all at once, comparing to multiple lines of graphical automation lines, not seing the exact numbers, etc. c) The look - I love how the rows of digits look, it have that geeky vibe but not in a weird and obsolet way, the interface looks very modern. d) Lots of unique and clever tweaks all around that other DAWs lack (although at the same time missing some obvious stuff here and there).
 
I feel very sad that I did not know it all earlier. I would really like to start with trackers just in the early 2000's when I got my PC, instead of starting with Cubase, Acid, Reason. I'm pretty much sure that there are tons of people like me around who would be happy to switch, if they just know. It is very sad that the development of Renoise is frozen for the last 2 years.
 
In the end here are just a couple of thoughts about some of my concerns. The strongest and at the same time weakest part of Renoise is the "heritage", the compatibility with previos generation of projects and people's skills. Imaging the new fresh modern DAW written just from scratch, having everything best from everywhere around. Maybe having both "normal" audio and MIDI tracks along with the some "raw" tracker-style audio/MIDI tweaking abilities.
 
The Renoise is amazing powerful instrument, more people should know and use it, it's a real shame that it is not that much popular around and there is no development progress recently.

Edited by AKM, 16 August 2017 - 14:45.

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#2 El°HYM

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 16:31

Renoise doesnt do Marketing, because it is the force &

 

The Force is with you, or it is not, is strong in you, or not.

 

It is like the Matrix of all DAWs, like the software

 

the Architect uses himself to program the reality.

 

With that said; welcome to the family, Neo!


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#3 Neurogami

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 17:51

Marketing is tricky (as the self-employed, including musical artists, likely know).   It costs money, and typically only makes sense if the money sent on marketing will earn back that cost and then some.

 

For small companies it can be a tough call, and I suspect that Renoise Inc. is unlikely to have much extra cash to chance it on ads.

 

That's part of the reason I try to hype Renoise when I can.  


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#4 AKM

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 18:10

Yes, I see, it's very interesting. As somebody already mentioned it does not try to sell you the whole lifestyle and the terabytes of samples. I'm also hyping it around from now on.


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#5 KnownUn

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Posted 16 August 2017 - 23:51

The beauty of Renoise is exactly this... super unknown, super underground, still very real, very excisting, it dwells in the heart of men, like the silent metronome of life itself - heart beat - pulses, rhythm... marketing? It's not what you have it's what you are free from. Renoise lives, surely, we are the carriers, keep it underground, like a secret weapon - and when the time is right - swing it like a sword. With this tracker you can track almost anything... silently... waiting... for the R E A L .... N O I S E.
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#6 A220

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 03:41

thanks for the insightful post OP. I think Renoise's marketing is doing just fine and wouldn't label it 'so poor' but I think I get what you mean...it doesn't have the same presence as live logic cubase protools.
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#7 AKM

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 09:05

The beauty of Renoise is exactly this... super unknown, super underground, still very real, very excisting, it dwells in the heart of men, like the silent metronome of life itself - heart beat - pulses, rhythm... marketing? It's not what you have it's what you are free from. Renoise lives, surely, we are the carriers, keep it underground, like a secret weapon - and when the time is right - swing it like a sword. With this tracker you can track almost anything... silently... waiting... for the R E A L .... N O I S E.

Sure. But I'm actually not that much into "secret games", being happy that now I know it, while many others don't, etc. I would love to see other people like me getting access to better tools.


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#8 Marc Shake

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 10:13

Renoise is one of the best DAWs in the world. It's stable, fast, slim, very easy to use (if you understood the first barrier called "vertical composing") and extremely open to other DAWs with Rewire, Jack and VST-Stuff. That said, everyone using renoise on a regular basis knows the benefits of this tool and will hardly change to something else. The marketing is indeed a problem. Many professionals I know use logic/cubase and similar stuff and they are astounded that this tiny program is so much more than the "protracker" they used to know. "VST? Fxxcking-Awesome-Sampler? WHAT?! Everything packed in this small package?"

 

Marketing a special-interest-program is always a problem. In fact, even Steinberg or Native Instruments don't do so much marketing. They have a rocksolid and huge fanbase. And Renoise does have this fanbase, too but some of us are too nerdy to do marketing and some of us don't like marketing at all and claim that "renoise has to be 1337-elite-software". Some others would love to do some marketing but fail.


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Alles über Renoise und Linux auf meinem Blog


#9 AKM

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 10:57

I'm definitely going to post a couple of threads shamelessly promoting Renoise on the forums I'm participating in (Gearslutz, Reaktor branch of NI forums, Ableton).


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#10 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 14:25

A good method is, do you have a website or blog that is widely read in your country? Reserve a free space to place a Renoise banner made by you with the link directly to the website buying a license. The banner can have the Renoise logo, and a DAW background, and may have text that says "Renoise, the best DAW type tracker in the world!" Buy it! This is free advertising, to support the project. Let others see what they are missing out on.

 

Do you have a YouTube channel or something similar? Create a link below your videos that says, "I believe in Renoise's project. Download the demo and try it out, worth it!". There are many ways to promote something "free" and effortlessly through social networks...

 

All this in order to help Renoise continue to evolve. If Renoise does not make progress, it is probably because he has no sales (no substantial profits). At least, help people try the demo...

 

This is Internet. Advertising a product today is easier than ever!


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:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 18 July 2017):

Spoiler

#11 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 14:42

I'm definitely going to post a couple of threads shamelessly promoting Renoise on the forums I'm participating in (Gearslutz, Reaktor branch of NI forums, Ableton).

 

At the end of version 3.0.1 I did a review of Renoise in Spanish, which has already had more than 51,000 visits (something is something). I also have a Renoise banner, placed for free and permanent, because I believe in this project. The banner space could be used to make money, but I do not care. Renoise deserves this kind of support...

 

Writing and posting opinion articles is fine too.


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:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 18 July 2017):

Spoiler

#12 Renoised

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 14:53

Love your post, AKM, I have a very similar point of view ;)

 

The whole Renoise situation regards development and marketing is a bit like that other DAW, Caustic.  Both are incredibly well-designed products but both appear to be a non-priority in the eyes of their developers.  It's the same with Caustic, the developer appears to see it more as a passion than a business - so he updates it when he can.  And just as with Caustic, the developer or Renoise is clearly skilled at program design and workflow, but clueless when it comes to marketing.

 

I dunno though, I think there's method in the madness.  The reason both are well designed programs is because both are developed pretty much solo.  The developers know what they want and when they find the time, they make it happen.  What you end up with is a well-designed product.  If it were the other way around, and lots of people were developing these two programs, the well-designed aspect of both would disappear because it would become a mish-mash of ideas rather than a clear, concise goal.

 

Just the way it is I suppose.


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#13 AKM

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 14:58

@Renoised

 

Good point. BTW, going to check Caustic now, never heard about it, lol.


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#14 Renoised

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 15:14

Oh man, are you in for a surprise then! :w00t:

 

- Completely skinnable.

- Completely automatable.

- Built-in modular synth.

- Built in vocoder.

- Built-in sampler.

- Built-in FM synth.

- Built-in 8-bit synth.

- Built-in analogue modeling synth.

- Built-in drum machine.

- Built-in additive synth.

- Built-in organ synth.

- Built-In JP-8000-type super-saw synth.

- Built-in multi effects (two per track).

- Mastering section with an additional two multi effects slots as well as mastering effects.

- Full mixer section with sends, levels, EQ.

 

It's identical across platforms, and works on:

 

- Linux (Using WINE)

- PC

- Android

- iOS

 

The PC version is free, and be sure to watch all of these right from the earliest videos if you want some very good tutorials on how amazing it's workflow is, and how to do automation etc.

https://www.youtube.com/user/CausticApp/videos


Edited by Renoised, 17 August 2017 - 15:20.

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#15 AKM

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 17:48

Oh man, are you in for a surprise then! :w00t:

Wow, can't say that I'm 100% convinced yet, but hey, it's so impressive! Sorry for 'off-topic' guys. Also it's my first time having something mobile 'audio-making'. You know, it is a taste of future, when you have it right in your shitty cheap-ass phone, throwing in beats and acid riffs, and you can hold it all right in your hands, when you can turn the knobs with your fingers simultaneously (not as cool as a real hardware but much much better than a mouse), all while standing, slightly dancing - very impressive! It's also totally another experience than producing at the desk. May I ask, is the license locked to your Google account, how it works (maybe PM, if you could be so kind)?


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#16 Renoised

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 18:21

I'm sorry, AKM, I can't help you there as I don't have a Google account.  I use the PC version (using the mouse wheel to scroll through the various pages).  It's actually a professional DAW in fun clothing (and skinnable), they're even working on a special "Mastering" program for it.  It's never going to replace real hardware, but nothing virtual will ever do that in a physical sense.  But if you watch all the videos starting from the very first while running it on the PC, you will definitely get a taste for how powerful it is, and what a great workflow it has.  Don't let the fun graphics fool you, it's a very powerful tool, so powerful you can even send signals internally between synths etc.

 

Sorry for the OT, but no point me PM'ing you cause I know nothing about Google accounts etc.

Just use the PC version, you'll love it, and then you can transition and make use of the mobile version whenever you're on the move :walkman:

 

Although it was designed for mobile, the "Master" is actually developed on the PC (which is why you can download a PC version).


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#17 AKM

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 18:29

I got it on a PC first, and then on a smartphone. I really advise you to try using it with a smartphone or tablet, the layout IS actually designed as a mobile app, not just something that you click with your finger instead of a mouse. it gives you a totally another experience when you actually 'touch' everything, it feels like a musical instrument in your hands.


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#18 Renoised

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 18:41

Neat, it's gotta look pretty small on a phone though mate!

 

BTW, if you get into it and start posting on the singlecellsoftware forum, maybe mention that you found out about Caustic on the Renoise forum.

That would share the love, cause then Caustic users who have never heared of Renoise, will discover Renoise  :walkman: 

 

Anyway, cool to hear you discovered Caustic today :)


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#19 KnownUn

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Posted 17 August 2017 - 23:09

Then you need to check out SunVox.... free on Mac OS and windows... the iOS costs a little. Tracker too. Russian design I think. Awesome!
Here : http://www.warmplace.ru/soft/sunvox/
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#20 Mivo

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 09:31

May I ask, is the license locked to your Google account, how it works ...?

 

Yes, the Caustic license is tied to your Google account. You buy the key like you would buy an app (it is listed in your purchased apps, separately from the Caustic program itself). I bought it twice, once for Android and once for iOS (when the Nexus 9 was so disappointing, I got another iPad). Great program, really. :)

 

Sunvox may also be something you enjoy, it's from a great Russian artist who is also a programmer. It's free on PC and costs a few dollars on iOS and Android. It's more like Renoise, but also very different from it.

 

Welcome to the Renoise community! Sounds like you fit in perfectly! :)
 


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#21 encryptedmind

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 22:02

I got to Renoise from Caustic. I was looking for a pattern sequencer that is similar to how each device in Caustic has a pattern bank but more well featured since I did not like the linear sequencer that much. I searched and revisited Renoise and found that Renoise is the only software that is built around a pattern mechanism whereby all the individual track devices are bundled as one pattern but unlike the MPC software which also uses patterns but you have to buy the hardware first. I also use MPC plugin with Renoise since I have the hardware too. The pattern editor and pattern list go hand in hand and way more detailed then I can ever imagine with either Caustic or MPC. The Caustic patterns loop even with different varying lengths but it's only for pattern mode and a pattern to song mode record feature could be a great feature in Caustic.

 

Then Renoise revealed itself to me with its feature set and I fell in love. I still use Caustic though from time to time since for my phone it's just unbeatable. Connect an OTG usb and plug your drum pad controller or midi keys and bang away or just jam with the devices.Guaranteed hours of fun if you stream the audio via Bluetooth or aux to a studio monitor. Sounds and synth patches are truly good and gritty.


Edited by encryptedmind, 19 August 2017 - 22:04.

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#22 AKM

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 00:42

Caustic is great but I decided to skip using it for a while, and to focus more on learning Renoise. Also downloaded and installed SunVox, love the interface aesthetics very much, but also decided to postpone learning/using.


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#23 A220

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 15:03

  It's the same with Caustic, the developer appears to see it more as a passion than a business - so he updates it when he can.  And just as with Caustic, the developer or Renoise is clearly skilled at program design and workflow, but clueless when it comes to marketing.


Yeah caustic is fun. My last release I made all the drums in caustic and imported them into renoise
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#24 Renoised

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 21:25

The Caustic patterns loop even with different varying lengths but it's only for pattern mode and a pattern to song mode record feature could be a great feature in Caustic.

 

That's something that got to me as well, but then I discovered it actually does have a song mode, sort of.  If you scroll through the screens, you'll come to the pattern sequencer, and I think a lot of people (including myself) automatically assume that's it.  But it isn't, keep scrolling and you'll eventually come to another sequencer where you can record longer pieces!

 

 

Caustic is great but I decided to skip using it for a while, and to focus more on learning Renoise. Also downloaded and installed SunVox, love the interface aesthetics very much, but also decided to postpone learning/using.

 

They're all cool really, and yup, I forgot to mention SunVox which, if I recall, is so platform versatile it'll even run on those old PSION pocket computers.

Anyway, good choice on Renoise, definitely a pro-level program, and especially good for sound design work - it's really cool for that!

 

 

Yeah caustic is fun. My last release I made all the drums in caustic and imported them into renoise

 

I love the modular, and I love the way you can group multiple instruments together to create those Yamaha and Korg style 'Program' and 'Combi' patches (so that they all play at the same time).


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#25 AKM

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 22:10

@Renoised

 

What pissed me off a bit about Caustic is that "fake portamento" option. It'd be OK for 303 one but it also goes for Modular. I was able to figure out how to build a real "legato" in Modular but not succeeded regarding the "portamento" (with retrigger of the first note). Well, I made something, sort of, to be exact, that don't retrigger the envelopes but it was far from a normal portamento glide.


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