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#1 EchoGecko

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Posted 06 November 2017 - 22:44

Hi all - n00b here. =] 

I have watched a couple of tutorials on Renoise and think I understand the general idea of how it works. 

I just have one burning question ...  how do we sequence triplets, quintuplets, or other irregular note groupings? 

It seems like the note sequencer ticks at a steady rate for all tracks, so essentially the user would be stuck in one time signature rather than be able to have rhythmically independent parts for each track...
So for example, I can't see how its possible to have a triplet part on one track, and a straight-feel part on another track, whilst they play simultaneously (a polyrhythm).

The only way I can imagine doing this is by setting the step value of the sequencer to something insane like 128th notes, but I figured that if I asked here somebody might have a better suggestion!

Thanks!
 


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#2 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 01:13

either use the phrase editor  arranger  ( pattern length in phrase editor  divided by lpb ofphrase editor  = number of beats the phrase editor will play in the main pattern .

 

So if your phrase pattern is 24 lines and lpb 12 , a full cycle of your phrase is 16 lines or 2 beats ( when the main lpb is 8 ) 

 

Or set your phrase length to 10 and phrase lpb to 5 , your phrase cycle will again last for 2 beats ., and you can fill it up with quintuplets .

 

Other method requires a tool which spreads the notes evenly over a selection .

Fantastic tool 

http://forum.renoise...d-notes-evenly/

 

The third method is to do it all manually with the note delay column .


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#3 Garrett Wang

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 04:33

The easiest way to do triplets is to set the main lines per beat to 12.

 

Then you can do triplets or straight beats.

 

For polyrythms like 3 over 4 you can set the pattern length so that the two cycles come together at the right time.

 

A 3/4 over 4/4 polyrythm will come together every 24 beats so using this technique the pattern length should be 24 X 12 lines = 288 lines per pattern.

 

If its too slow for your chosen tempo, just double the BPM or quadruple it. Renoise BPM goes high.

 

If you use the last method gentleclockdivider pointed out above, doing it all with delay commands... it gets tricky but you can go further than just triplets and do things like strums, ruffs and flams, maybe even buzz roll or bouncing ball type stuff if you are hardcore.

 

(For delay in ticks):

Volume or Panning Column

Qx - Delay a note by x ticks (0 - F)

 

(for delay in 256ths of a line):

 

Delay Column

 

00-FF - The delay column can only be used to delay a note or Note-Off, where 00 is no delay and FF will result in the note being delayed until immediately before the next line. For example:

  • 40 - 25% delay
  • 80 - 50% delay
  • C0 - 75% delay

 

[ edit : below is the easiest way to do all the tuplets ]

 

With a phrase of only one line in length its incredibly easy to do all the tuplets and beyond into waveform type speed ( LPB 256 ).

 

main pattern editor: TPL-12, LPB-4

 

( 1 line phrase LPB values )

 

(crotchet / quarter note / within the space of 1 beat tuplets)

 

LPB2 = duplet

LPB3 = triplet

LPB4 =quadruplet

LPB5= quintuplet

LPB6= sextuplet

LPB7=septuplet

LPB8=octuplet

LPB9=nonuplet

LPB10=decuplet

LPB11=undecuplet

LPB12=dodecuplet

LPB13=tredecuplet

 

for 2 line phrase, the above LPB values x 2 etc.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

main pattern editor: TPL-12, LPB-8

 

( 1 line phrase LPB values )

 

(crotchet / quarter note / within the space of 1 beat tuplets)

 

LPB2 = duplet

LPB3 = triplet

LPB4 =quadruplet

LPB5= quintuplet

LPB6= sextuplet

LPB7=septuplet

LPB8=octuplet

LPB9=nonuplet

LPB10=decuplet

LPB11=undecuplet

LPB12=dodecuplet

LPB13=tredecuplet

 

for 2 line phrase, the above LPB values x 2 etc.

 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

main pattern editor: TPL-12, LPB-12

 

( 1 line phrase LPB values )

 

(crotchet / quarter note / within the space of 1 beat tuplets)

 

LPB2 = duplet

LPB3 = triplet

LPB4 =quadruplet

LPB5= quintuplet

LPB6= sextuplet

LPB7=septuplet

LPB8=octuplet

LPB9=nonuplet

LPB10=decuplet

LPB11=undecuplet

LPB12=dodecuplet

LPB13=tredecuplet

for 2 line phrase, the above LPB values x 2 etc.


Edited by Garrett Wang, 16 November 2017 - 05:00.

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#4 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 13:46

yes , but when just using the main editor LPB you can't  combine triplets with quintuplets and regular notes ( withou using the delay column )

Because we need a lpb that is both dividable by  2 ( regular )3 (for triplets ) and 5 ( quintuplets )

 

Using the phrase , we can do whatever meter we want , independently from each other 


Edited by gentleclockdivider, 07 November 2017 - 13:47.

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#5 Conner_Bw

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 15:05

Historically people achieved this by programmatically varying the tempo. Here's a classic MOD called black queen that showcases this technique. This is not particularly triplet oriented, rather it showcases tracking techniques that highlight the idea that a tempo is fixed is false:
 
 
Renoise itself has a delay column. This gives you 256 points of granularity between notes. You can use this column to punch in triplets.
 
 
Finally, here's a Lua Tool that let you calculate triplets:
 
 
(I downloaded v1.03 and it works in Renoise 3.1, the API auto-upgrade was successful)
 
Hope this helps.

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#6 OopsIFly

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 18:30

Tempo automation is something you maybe might want to avoid to keep things tight and under control. Renoise is no heritage soundchip after all, but a daw. For example if you automated tempo to make quarter notes triplets, and then compensate, this will not only affect the track you want triplets in, but the whole tune at that time, putting things out of straight sync etc...

 

So I'd advise you to go via the note delay way, using the note delay column with correct delay values to produce the timing you need. The linked tools should make it easier to auto calculate the delays, but after a while you will have the values memorized and don't need it anymore. Or the 12/24 lpb way, but this might seem unnatural to edit compared to 4/8/16. If you constantly have problems with having to reorder notes of fast triplets into multiple note columns, double the lpb. I use 8 as my preference, I couldn't work with 4 for the reason of too many notes overlapping and less fine grained controls when cutting notes.


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#7 EchoGecko

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Posted 07 November 2017 - 20:49

 

Historically people achieved this by programmatically varying the tempo. Here's a classic MOD called black queen that showcases this technique. This is not particularly triplet oriented, rather it showcases tracking techniques that highlight the idea that a tempo is fixed is false:
 
 
 

 

Oh. My. God.  

 


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#8 Garrett Wang

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Posted 08 November 2017 - 06:33

Under the main pattern editor the "step length" which defines how far the cursor advances after each event entered is based on number of lines.

 

It might be advantageous to include another step length to the right of it based on musical note duration intstead, although It would have to work out the steps lengths based on LPB and TPL settings to enter the correct delay commands accordingly.

 

For example:

 

Semibreve / Whole note

Minim / Half note

Crotchet / Quarter note

Quaver / Eighth note

Semiquaver / Sixteenth note

Demisemiquaver / Thirty-second note

Hemidemisemiquaver / Sixty-fourth note

Semihemidemisemiquaver / Hundred twenty-eighth note

Demisemihemidemisemiquaver / Two hundred fifty-sixth note

 

All the tuplets:

 

duplets, triplets, quadruplets, etc.


Edited by Garrett Wang, 08 November 2017 - 06:49.


#9 EchoGecko

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 01:39

Under the main pattern editor the "step length" which defines how far the cursor advances after each event entered is based on number of lines.

 

It might be advantageous to include another step length to the right of it based on musical note duration intstead, although It would have to work out the steps lengths based on LPB and TPL settings to enter the correct delay commands accordingly.

 

 Do you mean that this should be a feature of Renoise in general, or that there is a way to actually implement this?  I noticed a few people have mentioned a Lua API of some kind...
 



#10 Garrett Wang

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 02:13

Sorry, yes that was a feature suggestion. The tools mentioned above already provide that function in a different way.

 

By my reckoning, if that feature was implemented it would make it easier for new users who are coming to renoise after having already used a piano-roll or step-sequencer approach to writing music for some time.

 

In piano-roll sequencers and step-sequencers (or even notation sequencers), as opposed to trackers, the user doesn't have the need for a calculator or separate tool to work out the number of ticks or delay column units (256ths of a line) per tuplet note. They just press the triplets button and enter notes, pressing it again to turn triplets off and go back to straight beats or non-irregular note groupings. However, most of those sequencer types are limited to only providing for triplets. No quintuplets, and so on.

 

In renoise and all trackers it can get complicated with different "lines per beat" and "ticks per line" settings being available.

 

Here is a quick description of various tuplets:

 

-- duplets --
 
-- 2 in the duration of 1 / 8th of a beat / demisemiquaver / thity-second note --
-- 2 in the duration of 1 / 4 of a beat / semiquaver / sixteenth-note --
-- 2 in the duration of 1 / 2 a beat / quaver / eighth-note --
-- 2 in the duration of 1 beat / crotchet / quarter-note --
-- 2 in the duration of 2 beats / minim / half-note --
-- 2 in the duration of 4 beats / semibreve / whole-note --

-- triplets --

-- 3 in the duration of 1 / 8th of a beat / demisemiquaver / thity-second note --
-- 3 in the duration of 1 / 4 of a beat / semiquaver / sixteenth-note --
-- 3 in the duration of 1 / 2 a beat / quaver / eighth-note --
-- 3 in the duration of 1 beat / crotchet / quarter-note --
-- 3 in the duration of 2 beats / minim / half-note --
-- 3 in the duration of 4 beats / semibreve / whole-note --

-- quadruplets --

-- 4 in the duration of 1 / 8th of a beat / demisemiquaver / thity-second note --
-- 4 in the duration of 1 / 4 of a beat / semiquaver / sixteenth-note --
-- 4 in the duration of 1 / 2 a beat / quaver / eighth-note --
-- 4 in the duration of 1 beat / crotchet / quarter-note --
-- 4 in the duration of 2 beats / minim / half-note --
-- 4 in the duration of 4 beats / semibreve / whole-note --

-- quintuplets --

-- 5 in the duration of 1 / 8th of a beat / demisemiquaver / thity-second note --
-- 5 in the duration of 1 / 4 of a beat / semiquaver / sixteenth-note --
-- 5 in the duration of 1 / 2 a beat / quaver / eighth-note --
-- 5 in the duration of 1 beat / crotchet / quarter-note --
-- 5 in the duration of 2 beats / minim / half-note --
-- 5 in the duration of 4 beats / semibreve / whole-note --

-- sextuplets --

-- 6 in the duration of 1 / 8th of a beat / demisemiquaver / thity-second note --
-- 6 in the duration of 1 / 4 of a beat / semiquaver / sixteenth-note --
-- 6 in the duration of 1 / 2 a beat / quaver / eighth-note --
-- 6 in the duration of 1 beat / crotchet / quarter-note --
-- 6 in the duration of 2 beats / minim / half-note --
-- 6 in the duration of 4 beats / semibreve / whole-note --

-- septuplets --

-- 7 in the duration of 1 / 8th of a beat / demisemiquaver / thity-second note --
-- 7 in the duration of 1 / 4 of a beat / semiquaver / sixteenth-note --
-- 7 in the duration of 1 / 2 a beat / quaver / eighth-note --
-- 7 in the duration of 1 beat / crotchet / quarter-note --
-- 7 in the duration of 2 beats / minim / half-note --
-- 7 in the duration of 4 beats / semibreve / whole-note --

-- octuplets --

-- 8 in the duration of 1 / 8th of a beat / demisemiquaver / thity-second note --
-- 8 in the duration of 1 / 4 of a beat / semiquaver / sixteenth-note --
-- 8 in the duration of 1 / 2 a beat / quaver / eighth-note --
-- 8 in the duration of 1 beat / crotchet / quarter-note --
-- 8 in the duration of 2 beats / minim / half-note --
-- 8 in the duration of 4 beats / semibreve / whole-note --

-- nonuplets --

-- 9 in the duration of 1 / 8th of a beat / demisemiquaver / thity-second note --
-- 9 in the duration of 1 / 4 of a beat / semiquaver / sixteenth-note --
-- 9 in the duration of 1 / 2 a beat / quaver / eighth-note --
-- 9 in the duration of 1 beat / crotchet / quarter-note --
-- 9 in the duration of 2 beats / minim / half-note --
-- 9 in the duration of 4 beats / semibreve / whole-note --

-- decuplets --

-- 10 in the duration of 1 / 8th of a beat / demisemiquaver / thity-second note --
-- 10 in the duration of 1 / 4 of a beat / semiquaver / sixteenth-note --
-- 10 in the duration of 1 / 2 a beat / quaver / eighth-note --
-- 10 in the duration of 1 beat / crotchet / quarter-note --
-- 10 in the duration of 2 beats / minim / half-note --
-- 10 in the duration of 4 beats / semibreve / whole-note --

-- undecuplets --

-- 11 in the duration of 1 / 8th of a beat / demisemiquaver / thity-second note --
-- 11 in the duration of 1 / 4 of a beat / semiquaver / sixteenth-note --
-- 11 in the duration of 1 / 2 a beat / quaver / eighth-note --
-- 11 in the duration of 1 beat / crotchet / quarter-note --
-- 11 in the duration of 2 beats / minim / half-note --
-- 11 in the duration of 4 beats / semibreve / whole-note --

-- dodecuplets --

-- 12 in the duration of 1 / 8th of a beat / demisemiquaver / thity-second note --
-- 12 in the duration of 1 / 4 of a beat / semiquaver / sixteenth-note --
-- 12 in the duration of 1 / 2 a beat / quaver / eighth-note --
-- 12 in the duration of 1 beat / crotchet / quarter-note --
-- 12 in the duration of 2 beats / minim / half-note --
-- 12 in the duration of 4 beats / semibreve / whole-note --

-- tredecuplets --

-- 13 in the duration of 1 / 8th of a beat / demisemiquaver / thity-second note --
-- 13 in the duration of 1 / 4 of a beat / semiquaver / sixteenth-note --
-- 13 in the duration of 1 / 2 a beat / quaver / eighth-note --
-- 13 in the duration of 1 beat / crotchet / quarter-note --
-- 13 in the duration of 2 beats / minim / half-note --
-- 13 in the duration of 4 beats / semibreve / whole-note --

 

It seems to me that the terms "duplet", "quadruplet" and "octuplet" function only as another way to describe a grouping of straight beats, whilst "sextuplet" and "dodecuplet" are really only describing groupings of triplets. I'm not quite sure whether a "nonuplet" is basically 3 triplets together or not. Probably not.

 

Anyway, some of the extra fast ones which will require several columns to enter, will work as different types of strum or buzz roll.

 

For example, guitar strums will often be based around fast sextuplets.

 

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Edited by Garrett Wang, 10 November 2017 - 06:31.


#11 Garrett Wang

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 02:34

...


Edited by Garrett Wang, 10 November 2017 - 06:06.


#12 Garrett Wang

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 06:04

Sorry for overposting here. I have a quick question.

 

yes , but when just using the main editor LPB you can't  combine triplets with quintuplets and regular notes ( withou using the delay column )

Because we need a lpb that is both dividable by  2 ( regular )3 (for triplets ) and 5 ( quintuplets )

 

Using the phrase , we can do whatever meter we want , independently from each other 

 

How about Lines Per Beat  at 30 setting?

 

It would be inconvenient I guess,

 

but in theory possible.

 

triplets, straight beats, and quintuplets?

 

I'm not sure. Its divisable by 2 but not 4.


Edited by Garrett Wang, 10 November 2017 - 06:27.


#13 radian

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 09:14

You can play off grid as people mentioned above. But, here are examples.

Use delay column for 00-FF steps between rows.

C-5 00 .. .. ....
D#5 00 .. 55 ....    (0xFF/3   = 55)
G-5 00 .. AA ....    (0xFF/3*2 = AA)
... .. .. .. ....

Three notes evenly divided in four rows

Or use the Q command in the Effect column (lower resolution = TPL which defaults to 12 per line, but that doesn't matter here)

C-5 00 .. .. ....
D#5 00 .. .. .Q04
G-5 00 .. .. .Q08
... .. .. .. ....

Three notes evenly divided in four rows, assuming 12 ticks-per-line (the default)

 
3.1_tracker-interface.png


Edited by radian, 10 November 2017 - 11:24.


#14 OopsIFly

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 16:03

we need a ready made table to put on desktop as graphic file, with catalogue of delay values/line position for possible tuplets at different lpb values

 

wasn't there once some tool where you would for example input 3 notes after each other, mark them with extra space of for example 4 lines, and have them shifted and garnished with delay values so the 3 notes go into the 4 lines evenly?



#15 danoise

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Posted 10 November 2017 - 21:41

@OopsIFly: fantastic description, from which I gather you meant joule's tool mentioned just above:

http://forum.renoise...stion/?p=362225


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#16 Garrett Wang

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 04:41

@radian :

 

Thanks. Those examples are really clear and useful.

What BBcode do you use to get your notepad examples to appear inside a box like that?

I thought I saw one a while back with a vertical scroll bar.

 

@oopsfly:

 

A table with details of how to make all the 'sheet music notes' with all the different tuplets.

By ticks, by 256ths of a line delay units, by phrase, with screenshots.

 

For example:

 

SEQUENCER TIME SETUP 1 :

TICKS PER LINE = 12
LINES PER BEAT = 4
TICKS PER BEAT ( CROTCHET ) / PPQN = 48

 

-- Demisemiquaver / Thirty-second note [ 1 / 8th of a beat ] --

 

128th DEFAULT PATTERN LENGTH ( 64 lines )
8th OF A BEAT
1 / 2 OF A LINE
6 TICKS
128 DELAY COLUMN UNITS ( 256ths OF A LINE )
PHRASE ????



#17 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 15:53

Sorry for overposting here. I have a quick question.

 

 

How about Lines Per Beat  at 30 setting?

 

It would be inconvenient I guess,

 

but in theory possible.

 

triplets, straight beats, and quintuplets?

 

I'm not sure. Its divisable by 2 but not 4.

It doesn't really matter .

Basic rule in the phrase  editor is : number of lines( length )  / lpb( i phrase editor ) = number of beats the phrase will play in the main editor .

 

So if you phrase is 30 lines long , and your phrase lpb = 10 , the phrase will play for 3 beats .

Same would be length phrase 12 ,lpb phrase 4 , = 3 same thing 

 

Or 15/5 = again 3 beats ... here we can play 5 evenly spaced notes (cursor step set to 3) over the duration of 3 beats

Just different subdivisions .

 

 

 

Triplet 

pattern length phrase 12/6=will play over 2 beats .and we can fil our phrase with 3 equall spced notes 

Sextuplets 12/6 , we can fill our phrase with 6 equally spaced notes.

 

 

The advantage of this approach is that we can set a number to our liking for subdividing .


Edited by gentleclockdivider, 11 November 2017 - 15:55.

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#18 radian

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Posted 11 November 2017 - 19:40

Oh it's the code tag to make the examples line up like that.

#19 Garrett Wang

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 03:30

Thanks, great information.

 

I can't find a way to change TPL or BPM of phrase independently of main TPL and BPM,

so I guess to set up a phrase that is only one 32nd note long I could halve the LPB to double the speed of the phrase, as a 32nd note in the main editor at TPL-12, LPB-4 would usually be just half of one line...( 6 ticks).

 

[ edit : this was wrong, dont halve LPB of phrase, double LPB of phrase ]

 

PHRASE-SEQUENCER SETUP :

TICKS PER LINE = 12
LINES PER BEAT = 2

PATTERN LENGTH = 1 LINE

 

Phrase length = One Demisemiquaver, One thirty-second note, one 8th of a beat or the equivalent of 6 ticks in length (when used in main pattern editor).

 

MAIN SEQUENCER SETUP:

 

TICKS PER LINE = 12
LINES PER BEAT = 4

PATTERN LENGTH = 64 LINES

 

Is halving the LPB of a phrase is the only way to double the speed of a phrase?

Did I miss TPL or BPM somewhere?

 

I could halve the LPB of the phrase again to LPB-1 to get a 64th note which would be the eqivalent of 3 ticks in length in the main pattern editor.

 

[ edit : example above was wrong. Double the LPB of phrase instead of halving ]

 

How would I set up a phrase equivalent to 1 tick in length in the main pattern editor? I want to see if renoise phrases can be used to create glitchy textures like the tables in LittleSoundDJ and LittleGameParkTracker in which I can enter a note with effect every tick ( for 'space arps' and 'pulse width glitch').


Edited by Garrett Wang, 13 November 2017 - 03:41.


#20 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 12 November 2017 - 14:22

PATTERN LENGTH = 64 LINES

 

Is halving the LPB of a phrase is the only way to double the speed of a phrase?

Did I miss TPL or BPM somewhere?

 

 

 

Or expanding /shrinking the phrase pattern length 


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#21 Garrett Wang

Garrett Wang

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Posted 13 November 2017 - 03:20

@Gentleclockdivider:

 

Thanks for your help.

 

OK. I get it now. I was doing it the wrong way round. I hadnt explored phrases enough.

 

I have to keep doubling instead of halving the LPB in the phrase to get the smaller and smaller note divisions (64th note, 128th note etc.).

 

I think I can now end up with phrases the equivalent of 0.75 ticks main editor tick equivalent? Yes even smaller.

 

This is nice.

 

With a phrase of only one line in length its incredibly easy to do all the tuplets and beyond into waveform type speed ( LPB 256 ).

 

( 1 line phrase LPB settings )

 

LPB2 = tuplet

LPB3 = triplet

LPB4 =quadruplet

LPB5= quintuplet

LPB6= sextuplet

LPB7=septuplet

LPB8=octuplet

LPB9=nonuplet

LPB10=decuplet

LPB11=undecuplet

LPB12=dodecuplet

LPB13=tredecuplet

 

for 2 line phrase, the above LPB values x 2 etc.

 

I would like to confirm to the LSDJ and LittleSoundParkTracker users that renoise does indeed have much faster "tables" than theirs (which do maximum 1 tick resolution, unlike renoise phrases which go all the way to oscillator type speed, 1 line phrase LPB256).

 

renoise 1 tick resolution phrase -- 1 line phrase, phrase LPB-48 ( 4 line dodecuplet x 4 = 1 line dodecuplet).

 

256uplet is th maximum. That is 5.33333333 times greater resolution than LSDJ and LittleGameParkTracker ( if they are set at 12TPL) or 10.66666666 time greater resolution if they are set at 6TPL.


Edited by Garrett Wang, 13 November 2017 - 04:39.