Jump to content


Photo

Chord inversions book recommendations???

chords inversion

  • Please log in to reply
56 replies to this topic

#51 Barrett Wang

Barrett Wang

    Chief Above Chief Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 262 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas
  • Interests:Science fiction, film and television

Posted 13 December 2017 - 06:07

Thanks for the link and all these informative answers. Its a shame I don't know lua.

I'm building a traditional chords from scales guide just as .txt files for reference.

 

I know the cycle of fifths is good for determining how many sharps or flats a major or minor scale has. This is the 'scales only' version of the cycle.

There is also a version of the cycle that gives a chord for each scale degree (image below). Pretty good as as compositional tool. Its the basis of all classical music. I'm not a big classical fan to be honest but I want to name chords correctly for my guide.

 

My problem is to do with describing chords from scales other than major or minor.

In cycle of fifths G# would usually be described as Ab, but specifically in the context of A harmonic minor chords from scale guide I guess I should probably name the chords with G# as the root note as 'G# chords' rather than 'Ab chords' because to get a harmonic minor from normal minor I have to sharpen (G to G#).

 

A minor ( A B C D E F G )

A harmonic minor ( A B C D E F G# )

 

Its a problem because the chords should be named according to the notes of the G# major scale (usually Ab Major).

G# Major is a funky and stupid looking major scale with six sharps and one double sharp. Ab Major would be better if only describing the scale ( and not naming chords in the context of A harmonic minor ) as it just has 4 flats, no double flats, nothing weird (Ab Bb C Db Eb F G).

 

I just wanted to check here if G# or Ab is better for naming G# chords in the context of chords from scale - A harmonic minor...I think I will end up going with G#, but it will be annoying ( six sharps and a double sharp ). Any advice for me?

 

Sorry I know the classical stuff is unnecessary and boring for renoise (renoise doesnt have diatonic rule or flats).

 

diatonic rule - for example, you cant have an A and then an A# in one scale. A must progress to B, so it must be described as A then Bb.

You must always go from A to B, B to C etc...the point I'm making is that trackers don't have this rule. In trackers its always all sharps and chords are described ( as in the arp command ) with number formulas representing semitones up from the root note rather than being described in terms of intervals (based on harmonic series) such as minor 3rd, Major 3rd, Perfect 5th and so on...for example: All Major chords are just 047 chords, all minor chords are just 037 chords, the notes are always written with sharps, never flats.

 

I just want to get these chords named correctly in context. There are many per scale. I dont want to have to go back and do corrections afterwards, its a big job to get this guide finished. Consider all the other chords for each note in a a scale apart from the main ones:

Even just for the note D (in the context of 'chords from scale - A harmonic minor') so far I have these 'D chords':

 

Dmin:            D F A       
Dm7:             D F A C     
Dm9:             D F A C E
Dm6:             D F A B
Dmadd9:       D F A E
Dm6add9:     D F A B E
D5:                D A
Dsus2:          D E A
Ddim:            D F G#     

 

There are many more than just these to be made and all off them have inversions and voicings...If I get all this information extracted I will be arpeggiator and phrase king. Plus, if I name them in two ways; 'the renoise way' (all sharps, no diatonic rule) and the 'classical way' I can not only write quickly and accurately but also describe my chord progressions and arps to fancy instrumentalists like ukelele players, guitarists or keyboardists.
                         

Cycle of fifths - chords (mentioned at the beginning):

 

51nkXcFaSmL.jpg


Edited by Barrett Wang, 13 December 2017 - 07:41.


#52 radian

radian

    Chief Above Chief Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 280 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brighton, UK

Posted 13 December 2017 - 12:48

A harmonic minor ( A B C D E F G# ) has a G# ( like normal A minor scale but altered ).

G# usually appears in cycle of 5th's as Ab ( 8 o'clock, 4-b )

In the case of creating a 'chords from scale' guide specifically for A harmonic minor, should I name the chords based on root G# as Ab chords or convert everything and describe them as G# chords?


In A harmonic minor, the reason it's G# and not Ab is that you already have an A and you'll have a more readable score if you have notes on different lines instead of constantly needing accidentals.

I do not understand what you are trying to do with the circle of fifths, but the reason G# is given as Ab on there is the same reason (Ab major is much more readable key sig than G# even though they are the exact same thing described 2 different ways..)

The triad built on the G# in A harmonic minor is G#dim you could call it Abdim, but you wouldn't want to for the same reason of readability.

Its a problem because the chords should be named according to the notes of the G# major scale (usually Ab Major).

Not if you're playing in A (harmonic) minor though. I think you are misunderstanding something fundamental, but I'm also not sure what you're trying to achieve, so I could be wrong.

Edit:

in the context of chords from scale - A harmonic minor...I think I will end up going with G#, but it will be annoying ( six sharps and a double sharp ). Any advice for me?

Like this is just completely wrong.
Whether you call it a flat or a sharp, theres only one black-key note in the scale. So the G#dim chord it gives you (or G#dim7 or how ever many notes you add), you only have the 1 sharp from the scale and certainly no double sharps. (unless you use chords with non-scale tones which is both possible and something what you seem to be trying to build won't allow for.)

Edited by radian, 13 December 2017 - 19:28.


#53 Barrett Wang

Barrett Wang

    Chief Above Chief Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 262 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas
  • Interests:Science fiction, film and television

Posted 14 December 2017 - 03:13

Thanks for your reply.

I think it will make sense to name them as 'G# chords'.

I will have to do chord spelling for the 'G# chords' using notes from the theoretical scale G# Major ( rather than the usual Ab Major )...because chords are named according to the Major scale of their root note.

For example:

A Harmonic minor - 1st A, 2nd B, b3rd C, 4th D, 5th E, b6th F, 7th G#
( Note that the 3rd is flattened because A Major scale contains C#, the 6th is flattened because A Major scale has F# )

[ To spell the G# chords I must use G# Major scale - 1st G#, 2nd A#, 3rd B#, 4th C#, 5th D#, 6th E#, 7th Fx ]
[ G# Major scale is enharmonically equivalent to Ab Major scale - 1st Ab, 2nd Bb, 3rd C, 4th Db, 5th Eb, 6th F, 7th G ]

G#dim :

Renoise spelling - G# B D

Normal classical spelling - 1st Ab, b3rd Cb, b5th Ebb = Abdim
( based on Ab Major scale degrees)

Classical spelling in context of describing it as a chord from A harmonic minor - 1st G#, b3rd B, b5th D = G#dim
( based on G# Major scale degrees )

G#dim7 :

Renoise spelling - G# B D F

Normal classical spelling - 1st Ab, b3rd Cb, b5th Ebb, bb7th Gbb = Abdim7
( based on Ab Major scale degrees)

Classical spelling in context of describing it as a chord from A harmonic minor - 1st G#, b3rd B, b5th D, bb7th F  = G#dim7
( based on G# Major scale degrees )
 


Edited by Barrett Wang, 14 December 2017 - 03:47.


#54 radian

radian

    Chief Above Chief Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 280 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Brighton, UK

Posted 14 December 2017 - 13:35

( Note that the 3rd is flattened because A Major scale contains C#, the 6th is flattened because A Major scale has F# )

So these notes are flattened compared to major scale, but I don't understand why you need to make everything relative to the major scale?
These are just a minor 3rd and minor 6th.

 

[ To spell the G# chords I must use G# Major scale - 1st G#, 2nd A#, 3rd B#, 4th C#, 5th D#, 6th E#, 7th Fx ]

This is one of the bits I don't understand. Why aren't you describing G#dim in it's own terms - root ( G# ), minor 3rd ( B ), dim 5th ( F ) instead of doing everything relative to an irrelevant major scale ?


Edited by radian, 14 December 2017 - 13:35.


#55 Barrett Wang

Barrett Wang

    Chief Above Chief Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 262 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas
  • Interests:Science fiction, film and television

Posted 15 December 2017 - 05:09

As I understand it its like this:

 

Both the A harmonic minor scale and the G#dim chord ( and all scales and chords ) are properly described in terms of how they differ from the Major scale of their root note.

 

So to describe 'A harmonic minor' I have to define it in terms of how it differs from 'A Major' ( it has flattened 3rd and flattened 6th degrees of A Major ), same for the G#dim chord. To spell the notes of G#dim properly I have to use G# Major scale. I wouldn't define the G#dim chord in terms of which notes it contains from A harmonic minor, but rather in terms of how its notes differ from the scale degrees of G# Major scale.

 

Descriptions of harmonic intervals also describe a Major scale.

 

Take C Major, for example:

 

1st  C

2nd D - major 2nd ...2 semitones up from C

3rd  E - Major 3rd  ...4 semitones up from C

4th  F - Perfect 4th ...5 semitones up from C

5th  G - Perfect 5th ...7 semitones up from C

6th  A - Major 6th ...9 semitones up from C

7th  B - Major 7th ...11 semitones up from C

8th  C - perfect 8th ( octave ) ...12 semitones up from C

 

So when describing Cdim I would use C Major scale as well.

Diminished triads contain a minor 3rd ( 3 semitones up from root note ) and a diminished 5th ( 6 semitones up from root note )...036.

Minor 3rd is minor because its 'less than' Major 3rd ( flattened by 1 semitone ), diminished 5th is also a way to say 'less than' a perfect 5th ( flattened by 1 semitone ). So Cdim chord spelling must be:

 

1st - C, 'b3rd / m3rd - Eb' and 'b5th / dim5th' - Gb... Cdim = C Eb Gb.

 

It is the same in the description of the C diminished scale ( It has b3rd, b5th and b6th degrees of C Major scale ) :

 

1st     C    - root / tonic

2nd    D    - Major 2nd ...2 semitones up from C

b3rd   Eb - minor 3rd ...3 semitones up from C

4th     F    - Perfect fourth ...5 semitones up from C

b5th   Gb - diminished 5th ...6 semitones up from C

b6th   Ab - minor 6th ...8 semitones up from C

6th     A   - Major 6th ...9 semitones up from C

7th     B   - Major 7th ...11 semitones up from C

8th     C   - perfect 8th ( octave ) ...12 semitones up from C

 

So, as A harmonic minor has a G# and not an Ab, if I want to spell G#dim correctly for the chord guide (regarding chords from scale - A harmonic minor ) I must use the notes of G# Major.

 

1st  G#

2nd A#

3rd  B#

4th  C#

5th  D#

6th  E#

7th  Fx

 

1st - G#, 'b3rd / m3rd' - B, 'b5th / dim5th' D.... G#dim = G# B D ( 036 )

 

Another one G#dim7 :

 

1st - G#, 'b3rd / m3rd' - B, 'b5th / dim5th' - D, 'bb7th / dim7th - F...G#dim7 = G# B D F ( 0369 )

 

As it turns out, it is the same chord spelling both in terms of writing the chords into the renoise pattern editor ( G#dim = G# B D, G#dim7 = G# B D F ) and in terms of writing the chords using the notes within A harmonic minor - ABCDEFG# ( G#dim = G# B D, G#dim7 = G# B D F )


Edited by Barrett Wang, 15 December 2017 - 06:37.


#56 MattD

MattD

    Super Advanced Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 139 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 15 December 2017 - 06:34

Hooktheory chapter 5 is about inversions. It's easy to follow with good examples.


  • radian likes this

KernUo9.png


#57 Barrett Wang

Barrett Wang

    Chief Above Chief Member

  • Normal Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 262 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Las Vegas
  • Interests:Science fiction, film and television

Posted Yesterday, 03:13

Hook theory ( and now hook theory 2 ) looks awesome.

Thanks, Great book recommendation.

I will have to save up to buy it. Quite expensive. Next month.







Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: chords, inversion