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#26 dblue

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 08:55

Renoise was written in lua??


Haha... Hell no it wasn't!

Either someone here is a bit confused, or a few details simply got lost in translation earlier in the thread.

Renoise is written in C++ as you previously suspected... And that also includes the advanced edit panel :)
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#27 Medievil-Music

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 12:33

Haha... Hell no it wasn't!

Either someone here is a bit confused, or a few details simply got lost in translation earlier in the thread.

Renoise is written in C++ as you previously suspected... And that also includes the advanced edit panel :)

Lol ! i thought it is a 100% LUA product ) Sorry guys! Im bad in geography.



#28 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 14:15

Renoise was written in lua?? This is new to me. Until now i thought it is written in c++, and it provides a scripting interface in lua, plus some functionality seems to be done in lua, like advanced edit stuff (as you can see from the combing thru speed). Is that true? That would pretty much explain a lot of problems regarding timing and speed.

timing speed problems ?

Renoise timing is superb,  and as dblue said: written in c+.

 

Please , look up some facts before posting stuff , looking at you medievlil music .


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#29 ffx

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 14:26

timing speed problems ?

Renoise timing is superb,  and as dblue said: written in c+.

 

Please , look up some facts before posting stuff , looking at you medievlil music .

 

 

Just read one of my many posts, and don't pretend everything is totally fine. Also I don't give a shit about Windows version. I didn't mean output midi timing, yeah that's one thing which works very precisely in Renoise.


Edited by ffx, 19 December 2017 - 14:27.

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#30 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 14:29

Lol ! i thought it is a 100% LUA product ) Sorry guys! Im bad in geography.

 

As I understand it, any executable can not be done 100% LUA, because this programming language needs a host, in this case Renoise encoded with another language. So, Reaper, Renoise any other program can not be written 100% with LUA. However, LUA is based on C. Maybe that's where the confusion comes from.

 

For example, any tool (written with the API LUA) can not run alone, it needs its host...

 

Anyone who builds tools has to adapt to the LUA API available from Renoise, which by the way was available in later versions, not from the beginning, if I remember correctly.


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#31 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 15:07

timing speed problems ?

Renoise timing is superb ...

 

If you write tools with LUA for Renoise that require a dynamic and updated GUI in real time, you will encounter problems with "the time". Here a few milliseconds can be a big headache.

 

I suppose this is also related. Some users who have written tools have continuously requested an option to be able to follow the selected line in real time while the song is playing (without any millisecond delay). All this makes creating dynamic tools is expensive and imprecise, as could be a pianoroll.
 
For some reason, I've seen some interesting tools with dynamic GUI that are never shared, end up being unfinished betas. Perhaps the limitations of the available LUA API of Renoise have to do with all this, and are related to the speed of execution.
 
As I have been able to experiment using timers, depending on the hardware and its power, there may be significant time lags.
 
On the other hand, the Renoise GUI is not always in tow with the sound. With a little powerful hardware (slow), it will not have a smooth reproduction, you can even experience important jumps in the graphics. All this has to do with time, and I suppose it is a cause of how it is programmed in C.
 
This is even more interesting if you use a very large number of tracks. If you use more than 90-100 tracks, adding a few more tracks at the same time can cause problems when you finish running a function of a tool which means adding tracks.  For some reason, the maximum index number of the tracks influences. The higher, the worse it is to include tracks. All this has to do with time and of course, the processing capacity of your computer.
 
Use few tracks and a powerful computer and everything will be fine...

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#32 joule

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 15:16

I just want to point out that the claims of lack of speed in LUA are greatly exaggerated IMO. I have yet to see a tool (released or gifanim prototypes) trying to do something where the current speed would not suffice in practice. Especially considering that it's a scripted extension.


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#33 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 15:27

I was reffering to timing as in ' tight timing' ., controlling hardware , vst's ...in that regard renoise is the best 

Not about laggy lua gui updates , I don't care about those ,  


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#34 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 16:01

I just want to point out that the claims of lack of speed in LUA are greatly exaggerated IMO. I have yet to see a tool (released or gifanim prototypes) trying to do something where the current speed would not suffice in practice. Especially considering that it's a scripted extension.

 

When using a slow playback speed (BPM and LPB slow) you will not notice speed problems. However, if you use a fast playback speed you may experience problems of execution, more than talking about speed, I would speak of precision.

 

For example, a composition with patterns with a high resolution. This is many lines playing very fast with few notes. Even using timers you can find precision problems, for example, by illuminating a marker, in the GUI of the tool. In this case, use a low resolution in each pattern and there will be no problems.

 

From what I have seen, the LUA code is read very fast, even though the functions are enormously long. Another thing is how long it takes the computer to finish executing this function. Here it depends on how well it is written apart from what it is for.

 

I suppose that FFX also refers to problems of time with the issue of programming tools.

 

For MIDI input (play live) or VSTis playback, I have not noticed anything significant. Everything is going very fast. Some users have complained about specific delay problems with the MIDI input. I guess it will depend on the hardware too.

 

I read a comment that playing in real time when recording, for example a piano, then it does not sound as it played. This has never happened to me. Maybe it's a problem of bad configuration or hardware.

 

By the way, this topic is being diverted...

 

---------

 

I regret the closure of the company, and above all, the sadness of its loyal customers. I guess not everything is because of piracy. It is that there is a lot of competition, a lot of "substitute product" and it has to compete with all that. Blaming piracy today no longer makes sense; piracy is one more thing. Companies will know that it will always be there. The business model to follow will have to keep this in mind as well.
 
In addition, the really high prices of some DAWs, which are designed for people with a lot of money, and the ways they have to protect some programs, with online subscriptions, costly activations etc, are things that bother customers. It is very easy to say that the prices go down. But if they do not sell so much per copy, it may be the cause of a high price and this that just also feeds more piracy.
 
Interestingly, a lot of pirated software is the most used, and that also serves to people end up buying that product, because it is used by everyone. I have no idea about the reasons for the closure. Maybe they are restructuring to sell another type of product? A facelift, to sell another brand. Sometimes changing brands to sell a similar product is a good strategy.
 
The day that Taktik decides to announce in the forum that he is retiring and that he will not continue with Renoise will be horrible news. If Renoise dies, to which tracker do you migrate, Radium? There is no other DAW like Renoise. VSTi and DAWs based on pianoroll are many. If one company fails, you have another...

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#35 ffx

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 16:06

..

Edited by guest_ffx, 25 December 2017 - 16:42.

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#36 dblue

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 16:56

The song xml / data searching/replacing doesn't seem to be fast, it is slow (maybe caused by the used xml lib or the xml song structure or the way the xml searches are built, since I know now the adv. edit functionality is not built in LUA, but c++).


XML is really only used when importing and exporting files.

We don't use XML as the internal data structure, as it would be too clumsy and inefficient to work that way.

So we're not constantly digging through thousands of XML nodes just to perform crucial pattern operations or anything like that.

The simple fact is that some of the advanced edit operations can get rather heavy rather quickly, especially with larger songs.

Modifying a few pattern lines here and there is no big deal, but when you start applying changes to 'track in song' or 'entire song', then the amount of data being processed grows pretty much exponentially.

A few tiny bits of pattern data suddenly becomes a few hundred bits, or a few thousand, or a few million!

Sometimes Renoise just needs a moment to have a really good think about things :)
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#37 ffx

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 17:10

e.g. if I transpose all notes of a song, it still takes like 5 seconds - on a fast cpu and a 5 min song. I think this is a conceptual problem then. IMHO you still could heavily speed this up. Should be done in the twinkling of an eye, it is C++. Why millions of calls while transposing over song, don't understand?  I did program C++, too :)  Do you mean calling abstracted pattern data? What about some caching then or a better data model?  As a side note, I don't care too much about adv. edit speed, since I would say there are more important things to improve. But if adv. edit is so slow and you would improve it from the core, maybe the whole app would benefit.


Edited by ffx, 19 December 2017 - 17:12.

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#38 Zer0 Fly

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 18:17

Well, yes, but you do know that in germany most of the housemaids are being schooled in Lua? It would require at least one of their landlords to make a product in C++. Thus Renoise MUST be coded in Lua, else you would ofc clearly see a proper coat-of-arms in the product logo. And the maids here are very proficient at doing it, so there should be no real difference in execution speed to be noticed...


Edited by OopsIFly, 19 December 2017 - 18:24.

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#39 ffx

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Posted 19 December 2017 - 18:21

Wow that pretty much explains it! Why the godfather taktik himself never comments or thumbs up/down in here? Meh

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#40 lettuce

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 00:14

 

If Renoise dies, to which tracker do you migrate, Radium? There is no other DAW like Renoise. VSTi and DAWs based on pianoroll are many. If one company fails, you have another...

 

 

I saw a guy doing a talk about radium. Looked like he had some cool ideas like automation and samples directly into vertical tracks, but the whole program was not running properly and it needed JACK or something. It looked like it was all messed up.

 

If renoise development stopped it would suck ( still hoping for audiotracks and stuff one day ) but I would continue using the final version anyway. If I had to choose one tracker to migrate to fully I'd choose sunvox. People still dont realize sunvox is seriously nice.

 

If there was no more renoise and no more sunvox, I'd probably just go old skool and use milkytracker. Never really tried modplug, there is another called skale...I heard those two are O.K.


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#41 joule

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Posted 21 December 2017 - 10:23

If Renoise development stopped for some reason, I would probably use Renoise 3.1.1 several years from now on in exactly the same way I do today: rewired to Studio One.

 

I don't feel that Renoise hinders me in any way. However, I can see why people who totally rely on Renoise can easily become anxious or frustrated. My advice is to use it as one of several tools for making music, not as your only fundamental framework of creativity.

 

That being said, I must say that I enjoy every update immensely and believe that the software has lots of potential :)


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#42 lettuce

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 00:12

This MPC2.0 software ( for free with akai MPD2xx series of controllers ) has a pretty non-grainy, nice sounding timestretch and pitchshift.

Also has audiotracks and looks o.k overall. Maybe its a better choice than reaper.

 

The MPD2xx series of controllers also comes with ableton live lite, which has the rubberband timestretch feature, maybe it has an advantage over the timestretch from MPC2.0?

 

Renoise needs a good native timestretch and pitchshift. All sampler-sequencers should have this. 

Just for instruments that have a longer loop cycle.

Not wanting a chord sampled from an obscure vinyl or cassette to be sped up when it is pitched and such.

 

This video has an example of the new akai timestretch and pitchshift from 1.48.

Not bad, not too grainy.

 



#43 encryptedmind

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 11:36

Wow, Cakewalk was the first DAW I ever used. Well this was coming though, as the software is obsolete enough already, in fact nothing about Cakewalk inspires really from the GUI to its fiddly piano roll and the rest.

As for Renoise, I can already see myself using the last version till I live in earth, if it's development stalls. It's already a banging good product even it's not all over commercial (it's still selling and the company exists as of yet!) and has its roots in the Demoscene days and as a result has a strong legacy and user base. With Renoise the user base is a mixed bag, some are full time pros, some do it as a side pursuit making some amount of royalties, some are purely hobbyists and enthusiasts, some are beginners. If making money was the only equalizer then it's unfair to say who is making how much just becos he uses or does not use Renoise. Many live musicians make a living playing an instrument and not via a DAW. Others in the industry work as pluggers, mixing engineers,DJs,session musicians, arrangers etc...so avenues for making cash are independent of what DAW you use. However on average it's the programmer types and underground music composers and producers both making money or yet to make money who are the primary consistency. It still has not caught on with beatmakers that much becos hip hop has a unique gear arsenal of its own, but that is ok, things might go any direction and Renoise would be on the forefront of it in terms of providing the tracker workflow and hardware like emulated experience. Best part is that while other developers small or big come in and go out of business, Renoise still stands even if the future is uncertain for various reasons, Taktik himself being one, and considering the journey so far it in itself is an achivement, all done without any crowdfunding or typical startup trends we see today.

Other thing apart from it's perfect sampler like workflow, for things like algorithmic composition and automation and inbuilt scripting, I don't really think any other DAW gives this kind of interface and power, Ableton uses Max/Msp and of course similar packages are quite a few for such composition styles, so while you could use Reaktor and Max/Map or Csound and many other frameworks it's unlikely they will produce something of the level of Renoise 's perfection just natively with their own modules so to speak. Renoise is a marvel of software engineering and it sets itself apart from the crowd in more than one ways. I have had some minor issues with some features which can be somewhat buggy but on the whole it rocks bigtime. I use a lot of hardware so I totally appreciate the simplified aesthetic of Renoise.

Those who are working in scoring or making more asset heavy work, it might pay to use some better suited products for such tasks obviously, you won't expect someone working on a million dollar budget to suddenly do tracking mid session just cos he can! Unless he has a background in trackers or uses them creatively or for the 'acknowledgement' factor. He has to be concerned with scoring and using sheet music and sound mixing etc which are involved crafts of their own and they actually have no link to tracking as such directly that is. The survival rate of other companies will boil down to profits end of the day becos we live in an imperfect world and a very capitalist economy where even startups in various industries are struggling to get funds to even enter the industry let alone survive it. This monopolistic corporate culture has effectively stifled innovation and growth once a peak is attained. Once they could make Logic Pro work and sell or Protools they will stick with that one money maker and not let any one else do the talking. It's really sad
Btw I saw a cool documentary just a few weeks back about the inane Software Patents system in America and how they bully companies and even big shots like Apple for something called 'method patents' where a method is described and any implementation for any developer round the world is bullied for royalties and money effectively scaring them and strangling any creativity or innovation for a small company to even 'consider' making anything without attracting that kind of insane attention for money from these enforcer lawyers (living in Texas it seems). So while the corporate dance takes place since WW II it's very effective at creating monopolies.


I truly hope Renoise lives long but I also urge the developers to take stance and make the source code a shared asset among its core developers so the next team member can succeed after Taktik in case God forbid something happens to him or his code base, both are too valuable for any single person to have that much of responsibility. We are paying now but we certainly expect more on the future.

However good days may come again once AI figures out best coding patterns and automated software development, so then we can just feed the requirements and use cases to the AI programmer and he will build another Renoise from the same. Same look and same functionality but done with precise intelligence and human intervention both. The present really does suck in many ways, but the future we deserve does look challenging but very interesting. It could mean the revival of old tools and rebuilding it for more modern uses. It could also mean we lose our jobs as programmers :( cos the AI does it better...

Edited by encryptedmind, 25 December 2017 - 11:45.

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#44 lettuce

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 01:25

Hip hop beatmakers have their own tools ( other sampler-sequencers ), but timestretch and pitchshift in renoise would be useful.

I wonder if the ableton 'rubberband timestretch' has any real advantage over the akai timestretch.

Maybe the Akaizer tool is almost the same as both? Or slightly more grainy, lower quality?

Guess I will have to try them all and make up my own mind...both ableton live lite and MPC2.0 are free with MPD2xx controllers anyway.

Wish renoise had its own timestretcher and pitch shifter included though.


Edited by Barrett Wang, 26 December 2017 - 01:30.

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#45 Medievil-Music

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 08:59

Hip hop beatmakers have their own tools ( other sampler-sequencers ), but timestretch and pitchshift in renoise would be useful.

I wonder if the ableton 'rubberband timestretch' has any real advantage over the akai timestretch.

Maybe the Akaizer tool is almost the same as both? Or slightly more grainy, lower quality?

Guess I will have to try them all and make up my own mind...both ableton live lite and MPC2.0 are free with MPD2xx controllers anyway.

Wish renoise had its own timestretcher and pitch shifter included though.

Ableton uses Complex and Pro Complex time shifting protocols with Antiformant fixing function. It is really the best between it's rivals.



#46 lettuce

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Posted 27 December 2017 - 05:05

Thanks. Then I'll go with ableton live lite for the pitch shift and timestretch.

I'm going to have to learn ableton. Its a shame that renoise doesn't have those.

Well ableton has audiotracks too so it'll be worth the time, can put some real instruments, probably only guitar but still.

Yeah, gonna sample some bollywood and put some breaks and synths into it, should be nice.


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#47 Hybrid Children

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Posted 09 January 2018 - 00:35

OH man,   I heard about this from Soniclab.   Sad. 

 

I remember Cakewalk in 96 when Cakewalk 3.1 was released..  lol   I remember you only had 4 audio tracks and unlimited midi(or was it 256 midi tracks).   

 

Anyway,  4 audio tracks back then was amazing.  Now?   unlimited.    

 

I've always wanted to try Sonar.   Bummer man


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