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#1 stygmate

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 17:11

For devs:

 

How many days of work do you need to implement planned new features ?

How many money do you want per day of work?

 

For users:

 

How many money do you want to put in Renoise evolution ?

 

If devs are ok to be paid for work and many users want to pay i can put a web platform for manage demands and funding !



#2 EatMe

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 19:11

That's called buying a Renoise license.

Or buying a Renoise mug, if you already have a license. Or a sweater.

You could also share access to a Nigerian Bank allowing Renoise to use $50.000.00000.000 (50 too many zeroes)
and send in a full name, address, copy of identification, bank number, social fiscal number, telephone number and credit card expiry date.

#3 realist

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Posted 22 December 2017 - 23:04

You could start a crowdfunding. And then hand over result to Taktik. If Taktik does not answer within 3 days, you hand over to dblue. If dblue does not give a shit about it, hand over to danoise, who will invest it properly in bitcoins.


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#4 ArturRembe

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 12:31

Nice idea to crowdfound taktik. I will Jump to the boat:D

#5 danoise

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Posted 23 December 2017 - 13:34

If dblue does not give a shit about it, hand over to danoise, who will invest it properly in bitcoins.

 

Good idea. Let's rebrand to Reponzi while we're at it

https://arstechnica....kchain-to-name/

 

Ah, OK, sorry for not taking the topic serious. It's holiday? 


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#6 stygmate

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Posted 25 December 2017 - 22:26

i'm serious !

 

Users +1 this !

 

Devs are you OK to be active on Renoise for extra money ... ?

 

(Maybe Renoise won't evolve anymore) .... :(

 

If there's many +1 I will use my free time to write a web plateform (Python / Django based) for keep track of users demands, estimation of time of developement for dev and money required (maybe stripe account connected to taktik bank)

 

...



#7 m.arthur

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 01:10

I see you're one of those DAW users who is more focused on eagerly awaiting / demanding new features than using the ones already there.....

 

When a DAW is plagued with bugs and things need fixing, I understand this kind of attitude. But with Renoise, I don't get it. It works darn near flawlessly. Sure, there's always "more" we can dream of, but why not focus on making great music rather than worrying about crowdfunding to force the devs into working on the program? I want a program that the devs work on because they WANT to work on it, not because they've been pressured into it for purely business reasons. Shrug.

 

to each their own, I guess, but I think this whole topic is silly. 


Edited by m.arthur, 26 December 2017 - 01:11.

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#8 dblue

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 03:14

Devs (...) If there's many +1 I will use my free time (...)


Thank you for the offer, but we do not need such a system, so please save your free time for something fun instead.
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#9 stygmate

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Posted 26 December 2017 - 11:49

Hello All,

 

Thank you for the offer, but we do not need such a system, so please save your free time for something fun instead.

 

Thank you for response.

I'm frustrated with some limitations of Renoise like no multi audio input for plugin (I have wrote a lot of convolutional like plugins), some bug in audio rendering of vst plugins, lake of high level manipulation of samples in API (lua is slow), ...

The Whole thing is really stable but i'm in fear that such a great piece of software get stucked at a point.

 

I see you're one of those DAW users who is more focused on eagerly awaiting / demanding new features than using the ones already there.....

 

When a DAW is plagued with bugs and things need fixing, I understand this kind of attitude. But with Renoise, I don't get it. It works darn near flawlessly. Sure, there's always "more" we can dream of, but why not focus on making great music rather than worrying about crowdfunding to force the devs into working on the program? I want a program that the devs work on because they WANT to work on it, not because they've been pressured into it for purely business reasons. Shrug.

 

to each their own, I guess, but I think this whole topic is silly. 

 

I'm not a good english writter and i have difficulties to fully reply and to argue.

So, i will just say that i am a very technical user of Daws with very demanding and specific needs (but i want all of that in a tracker and Renoise is the best).

 

Have a good day,

Ben.



#10 encryptedmind

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 15:46

Ben, Renoise encapsulates the freedom, anarchy and technique geekery oriented computer subculture when tracker software and computers were truly geeky machines and only the best of them could hack it inside out. It's like playing chess. It's not that the chessboard needs to be remade or decorated but it was always about gameplay and tactics. Tracking is a unique art form on its own just like extreme sports, but for geeks and musicians and programmers and circuit benders and creative people in general. However one thing sets trackers apart from more conventional music software, forget the term digital audio workstation for a moment, you still needed to be a computer geek to get anything out of tracker software and read hex in your sleep and be fully adept at using your computer keyboard without even thinking about it. You also got to be a musician and a creative, it's not all math btw. Pretty much nothing changed all this while but Renoise came to exist in parallel as an evolutionary process which Taktik himself mentions as he wanted a software tool that was fast and easy to use (as a geek and musician himself) and that is when he started to look forward to build one at around age 25. It's a young man's dream and it's realised. The tracker music subculture was never about making money but making art and expressing it through display of skill and mastery over ANY piece of electronic machinery, it could be a graphic chip used for audio or making audio on a defunkt circuit board and still making it sound interesting. The Demoscene is a creative and technical scene, it's not an industrial convention like NAMM. Money is not really a motivation for the hours of time spent by everyone of them contributing all these years.

There may be some pros and cons to having a relatively young but resilient art form that is electronic in nature and a thriving scene with no commercial focus as such. But it's perfect in its beauty the way it is. There are a gazillion tools and software plugins that will do what you want. Hell, I use a pitch shift MP3 player to slow down fast solos on my phone, and stuff like that, nicks and nacks. I still use Renoise do all of my music excursions and creative pursuits. I am looking forward to personal project of mine where I am using malware sonification using Lua scripting and reverse engineering a PE file using Renoise and making music out of it, and I just might be satisfied with my efforts enough to submit it to Defcon for next year's security conference if I do it successfully. Guess what, it's a geeks conference and this idea can be done in other tools too like JavaScript but most security folks won't be playing music the way we musicians do it and that is where combining tracking culture, security expertise and pure fun will be my modus operandi for the time being..

Doing it for money, hell no. If everyone was suckered into being motivated by money then we would not have had trackers, Demoscene and Renoise to begin with. I really like the kind of cultural detachment where money is not an incentive at all, even if corporate commerce has a say in market matters. Let's just put it this way - Renoise comes from a very different community and aesthetic, not just the unusual interface or skillsets required to use it. This sort of tribal unity (Scandinavian cultures are tribal in origin and a lot of that brushes off on the early origins of the computer subcultures) and lack of corporate selfishness is a breath of fresh air in a world where everything DEMANDS money.Finally even with its 'free for all' roots, YOU can still use it for ANY purpose you want and make money off using Renoise or any one of the 100 tracker softwares or computing platforms of your choice and create recordings, loop CDs, sample packs, license your stuff in publishing deals, use it at live gigs, program vsts and test it, use it for academic research or demonstration, or just to relax and look really cool doing it in the office, or DJ gig as NO one in the general audience will ever get it and will look esoteric to them:)

You really cannot complain about something that is as good as what Renoise has come to be and at this price, especially at a time when the market place is totally dominated by money makers(first priority money!), kick backs and endorsement deals and in general a very exploitative but well oiled revenue generating machinery we call the music industry, it has its good and bad sides, but the folks at the top seem to have some truly devious aims in general and take pleasure in corrupting everything and controlling everything.

Be happy that something like Renoise even exists in the current climate where it's really easy to just cop out and be a sell out or pay money to the mafia than rather take a bullet in the head,or something to that effect. I like the audacity and sincerity around the computer subculture scene and this one is my favourite right beside the computer hacker subculture. Some things in life need to stay virgin and pure. Art for art's sake works well too, not everything is for sale btw on this world.

When a doctor releases a vaccine for free without licensing it to a pharma company or say Picasso gives free painting seminars around the world, would you be complaining about the transportation expenses at that point to reach the venue or buy a little vial of vaccine for a buck? Some people have a big heart and soul and it's nothing wrong to stay that way. The world is crumbling around us anyways, it's time for some massive change. If we humans survive it then we can all go back to our daily retreat of using one of the best music softwares ever.

If crowdfunding comes up, I can sure contribute money from my end and my share, but it would seem rude to just send money to Taktik randomly as if he was even asking for it. The one thing we can do without offending anyone is to open a Patreon page and ask everyone to chip in with their share and see how it goes. All proceeds can be saved in a Renoise fund bank for future development. We are not getting all old and stingy so soon, so even if we really play the money game, we will be here for our entire lives really. Thing to think about.

And for the rest of us who plan to use Renoise as is forever, playing chess or practicing martial arts might also be a good distraction side by side.:) Life is too short to get hung up on money, even if the landlord needs some.(lol)

Edited by encryptedmind, 28 December 2017 - 16:07.

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#11 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 15:48

All the renoisers we can offer our machines to mine Bitcoins, and then give them to the Renoise team.
 
Joking aside, a well-made crowdfunding can be good business, but it is necessary to agree and any decision is respectable.
 
Edit: @encryptedmind, for some reason I'm stuck reading your comments. Some are very deep. Certainly, you increase the prestige of these forums with such wise things.

Edited by Raul (ulneiz), 28 December 2017 - 15:51.

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:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 26 September 2017):

Spoiler

#12 encryptedmind

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 16:00

All the renoisers we can offer our machines to mine Bitcoins, and then give them to the Renoise team.
 
Joking aside, a well-made crowdfunding can be good business, but it is necessary to agree and any decision is respectable.
 
Edit: @encryptedmind, for some reason I'm stuck reading your comments. Some are very deep. Certainly, you increase the prestige of these forums with such wise things.


@Raul: Haha, thanks! :) well I take that as a complement and as such I am not leaving this place anytime for a long foreseeable futur3.. too many brothers to miss.

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#13 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 28 December 2017 - 16:02

@Raul: Haha, thanks! :) well I take that as a complement and as such I am not leaving this place anytime for a long foreseeable futur3.. too many brothers to miss.

:D  :D  :D


  • encryptedmind likes this

:excl: Development of my tool: GT16-Colors

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 26 September 2017):

Spoiler

#14 stygmate

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Posted 29 December 2017 - 15:07

Ben, Renoise encapsulates the freedom, anarchy and technique geekery oriented computer subculture when tracker software and computers were truly geeky machines and only the best of them could hack it inside out. It's like playing chess(..)

 

 

Hello EncryptedMind,

 

 

The evolution of Renoise seems stopped and it's not a open source software so noone except actuals devs can work on it.

It is made by passion AND for money (if it was pure passion why not opensource it ?).

 

All people Happy with 3.1 can use it forever but it's really sad if it don't evolve further.

 

Ben.



#15 Skyscape

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Posted 01 January 2018 - 00:44

Hi Ben, there is another tracker Radium that is quite advanced, and the developer seems very active and responsive to suggestions. If it's something very specific you need it may be worth looking into that. The interface didn't really click for me, and I find that Renoise does pretty much everything I need anyway but it seems like a decent alternative if you're looking for something that is quite frequently worked on.


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#16 encryptedmind

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Posted 01 January 2018 - 05:16

Ben, I can appreciate your motivation but think about it this way, many of us have a background in using Linux right? That is also a piece of software started off by one guy trying to make a Unix clone while still in college from his bedroom. Fast forward 2 decades and we have about 80 different 'top' ranking distros where the work of any given distribution is the contribution of a large pool of developers. Linus Torvalds certainly made the kernel work but his code is now just a small part of it not the most of it. His acknowledgement is there but his contribution in terms of code can be overwritten anytime, even as the hacker community take his consent out of respect for him. Also people take great liberty what they make of a Linux distro. You have a 36MB Slitaz distro which so bare bones that everything else must be first installed to Ubuntu Studio which is a more media centric distro. Then you have the Gnome vs KDE wars, emacs versus vi wars, absolutely shit audio infrastructure with ALSA and Jack as the primary audio drivers, apart from Ardour and of course Renoise Linux version the kind of tool required for competing with Windows or Mac is practically non existent. You can use various hacks like Wine and app virtualization but end of the day you will see the difference rather quickly. You cannot use Kontakt sample libraries without hitting CPU and latency barriers rather fast and for years plugins like Waves and other devs could never be used natively in Linux.

So my point from all this is that even if Renoise becomes fully open source its highly unlikely that people will make something coherent from it. The benefits of having a single meeting point is way more productive than 'forking' a Renoise git repository and having to deal with 20 eccentric devs in the process. Each person will have his take on it and try to mangle it beyond recognition. A couple might be more on the lines of what Renoise can proceed to, the rest will either just die out of dormancy or lack of continued interest or support. You have to understand that the programming world is actually highly opionated and eccentric. If Linux truly meant liberating a code base we still have to deal with the corporate reality of vendors and devs doing all their designs and development work for the platforms that have a major share base. That means that a LOT of earlier gear and drivers required simply don't work in Linux and that exactly was the problem that has plagued Linux for many years. Nowadays we have a plug and play architecture for things so this point might take a backseat for the time being. However Linux has its own native formats for audio plugins as well and there is some support for VST coming up to expected standards. So taking a hint from Linux, it's possible that Renoise could live in our minds or the other developers if formed into N number or versions but I doubt it will be as productive in the end, and the whole idea of a community and forum will end at that point. It's very possible that one of the forked versions takes traction with the community and everyone leaves this forum to hang out more in the new one, and mostly becos it's new only, the persistent or older members won't be giving much heed anyways cos they have stuck so long together. So what will result is fragmentation of the community, fragmentation of the code base, dilution of Taktik's original vision and design and code morphed and redacted to fit people's desires and with time Renoise as we know it might just as well cease to exist. It's just the nature of how humans work and history is a great example of this.

Regarding money, Renoise is possibly the cheapest pro grade tool out there less than most plugins or your FX pedal for that matter. This is to make it work not only as trackers did NOT originally being a very community and competitive activity to a more commerical endeavour, and it's been working successfully if you study the history timeline of Renoise. No one out here or even in the audio world is looking to make billions off sales revenues. Just look at the reality, many firms are closing or have already closed down. The primary reason Renoise will continue is becos money is taken out of the equation. Just enough to maintain the company website and other resources like bandwidth and space and possibly compensate the core dev team for their man hours invested for that dev cycle. I think it has come this far with this model and a very active user base and a dedicated one too at that, I feel that it's going to stay this way for quite some time in foreseeable future. Europeans are rather conservative people too so unlike Americans or the recent slew of nouveau riche mindset of entrepreneurs, the guys behind Renoise do it purely out of acknowledgement for the what came before them and what they wanted to do, in other words passion and not following an originally startup blueprint, and it's been achieved admirably well so far.

The question is where so we go from here. If we do fork a Renoise code base we have a potential Linux scenario and tons of fragmentation to deal with both the market, the code and the community. This kind of solution is unlikely to happen becos the core team is careful with their code and resources, which is perfect becos it is their intellectual property.

So the other thing that can be done is support work on native Lua tools and open a Patreon page for a list of tools and features that people want and let the concerned audience from the user base cote for the features to be converted a tool and let the payments come in. We live in an industrial system so money while not the primary incentive for many people, this is one incentive that can help them make a better priority of their time invested and also keep a good track of things with direct interaction between people who make tools and people who use them. We can also provide other incentives like providing Beer packs, t shirts, concert tickets and exotic food or chocolate boxes, maybe free mastering for their music, music gear gifts, coupons etc as morale and mood boosting incentives for the devs. Not everyone cares much about our virtual currency system but a human being to human being appreciation and adequate compensation never hurts anyone. If someone makes you a nice chair, you can take him out for a fat lunch. Both are happy in the process! So in addition to a payment system we can also setup a mailing address for people to send stuff.

You get the idea I hope, some might be more business man minded or corporate minded out here and an enterprise if done with good intentions is nothing bad inherently, very much like a community effort with a socialist mentality and not a capitalist one, but you have to realise you are dealing with techies and musicians first businessmen second, if that, so it's easy to think people are closed minded etc without having a complete picture of how they came to be what they are now.

It's all in good faith btw, I like your ideas, so maybe you can shed some light on the 'Patreon money and goods delivery portal for Renoise Lua tools as per user demand' idea and from your perspective whether it works or not. You seem to have some background in business so maybe your inputs will be very helpful indeed.

Edited by encryptedmind, 01 January 2018 - 05:33.

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#17 stygmate

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Posted 01 January 2018 - 13:38

Hi Ben, there is another tracker Radium that is quite advanced, and the developer seems very active and responsive to suggestions. If it's something very specific you need it may be worth looking into that. The interface didn't really click for me, and I find that Renoise does pretty much everything I need anyway but it seems like a decent alternative if you're looking for something that is quite frequently worked on.

 

Hello :)

 

Wooooow !

 

The interface is totally awful but the possibilities are enormous :):):):)

Faust ! Python ! Micro Tuning ! Full Liberty with routings ! Hybrid Piano Roll / Tracker Interface (graphic display of glide among others :) / ...

If the crew do some UX optimisation it will be my next DAW :)