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How to apply swing to triplets with delay commands?

groove swing triplets

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#26 lettuce

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 23:39

Alright, finally I have the answer to this problem!

 

How can I get exactly the same 16th-based percentage swing variations, with the swings applied to triplets properly by using delay by ticks commands in sunvox, milkytracker and renoise, so that I can work across all three softwares with interoperability of swing?

 

The way to do it is to choose a swing variation based on 12 lines per beat and apply the swung sixteenth note delay commands in all tracks.

 

My swing variations are here ( scroll down to the second set, I did swung 8ths instead of swung 16ths for the first set ) : http://forum.renoise...75-as-commands/

 

Here is an example of triplets with a 62.5% swing applied ( which will work the same in all three trackers; milkytracker, sunvox and renoise ) :

 

TPL-12 LPB-12 ( 144ppqn, 72 ticks per 8th note )

 

62.5% ( 1st 16th note - 45 ticks / 2nd 16th note - 27 ticks )

 

( These are swung sixteenths, with 62.5% swing )

00 C-4 00 -- ----
01 --- -- -- ----
02 --- -- -- ----
03 C-4 00 -- -Q09
04 --- -- -- ----
05 --- -- -- ----
06 C-4 00 -- ----
07 --- -- -- ----
08 --- -- -- ----
09 C-4 00 -- -Q09
10 --- -- -- ----
11 --- -- -- ----
( repeat )

 

This is how slow triplets with the same swing applied look :

 

00 C-4 00 -- ----
01 --- -- -- ----
02 --- -- -- ----
03 --- --  -- -Q09
04 --- -- -- ----
05 --- -- -- ----
06 --- -- -- ----
07 --- -- -- ----
08 C-4 -- -- ----
09 --- -- -- -Q09
10 --- -- -- ----
11 --- -- -- ----
12 --- -- -- ----

13 --- -- -- ----

14 --- -- -- ----

15 --- -- -- -Q09

16 C-4 -- -- ----

17 --- -- -- ----

18 --- -- -- ----

19 --- -- -- ----

20 --- -- -- ----

21 --- -- -- -Q09

22 --- -- -- ----

23 --- -- -- ----

 

This is how medium triplets with the same 62.5% swing applied look :

 

00 C-4 00 -- ----
01 --- -- -- ----
02 --- -- -- ----
03 --- --  -- -Q09
04 C-4 -- -- ----
05 --- -- -- ----
06 --- -- -- ----
07 --- -- -- ----
08 C-4 -- -- ----
09 --- -- -- -Q09
10 --- -- -- ----
11 --- -- -- ----
12 C-4 -- -- ----

13 --- -- -- ----

14 --- -- -- ----

15 --- -- -- -Q09

16 C-4 -- -- ----

17 --- -- -- ----

18 --- -- -- ----

19 --- -- -- ----

20 C-4 -- -- ----

21 --- -- -- -Q09

22 --- -- -- ----

23 --- -- -- ----

 

This is how fast triplets with the same 62.5% swing applied look :

 

00 C-4 00 -- ----
01 --- -- -- ----
02 C-4 -- -- ----
03 --- --  -- -Q09
04 C-4 -- -- ----
05 --- -- -- ----
06 C-4 -- -- ----
07 --- -- -- ----
08 C-4 -- -- ----
09 --- -- -- -Q09
10 C-4 -- -- ----
11 --- -- -- ----
12 C-4 -- -- ----

13 --- -- -- ----

14 C-4 -- -- ----

15 --- -- -- -Q09

16 C-4 -- -- ----

17 --- -- -- ----

18 C-4 -- -- ----

19 --- -- -- ----

20 C-4 -- -- ----

21 --- -- -- -Q09

22 C-4 -- -- ----

23 --- -- -- ----

 

This is how extra-fast triplets with the same 62.5% swing applied look :

 

00 C-4 00 -- ----
01 C-4 -- -- ----
02 C-4 -- -- ----
03 C-4 --  -- -Q09
04 C-4 -- -- ----
05 C-4 -- -- ----
06 C-4 -- -- ----
07 C-4 -- -- ----
08 C-4 -- -- ----
09 C-4 -- -- -Q09
10 C-4 -- -- ----
11 C-4 -- -- ----
12 C-4 -- -- ----

13 C-4 -- -- ----

14 C-4 -- -- ----

15 C-4 -- -- -Q09

16 C-4 -- -- ----

17 C-4 -- -- ----

18 C-4 -- -- ----

19 C-4 -- -- ----

20 C-4 -- -- ----

21 C-4 -- -- -Q09

22 C-4 -- -- ----

23 C-4 -- -- ----


Edited by lettuce, 02 February 2018 - 23:44.


#27 dblue

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 03:25

apply the swung sixteenth note delay commands in all tracks.


Tip: You can put the Qxx delay commands on the master track to affect all tracks simultaneously, if that's what you're going for.

 

This is how slow triplets with the same swing applied look :
(...)
This is how medium triplets with the same 62.5% swing applied look :
(...)
This is how fast triplets with the same 62.5% swing applied look :
(...)


Not sure if it was just a typo, but in these three examples the Qxx delay commands will have no effect, since they do not actually line up with any notes.

If you are in fact hearing some swing being applied here, double check the master track to see if you've accidentally enabled some groove settings.
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#28 lettuce

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Posted 03 February 2018 - 05:15

Tip: You can put the Qxx delay commands on the master track to affect all tracks simultaneously, if that's what you're going for.

 

Thanks. That should work nicely.

 

 

Not sure if it was just a typo, but in these three examples the Qxx delay commands will have no effect, since they do not actually line up with any notes.

If you are in fact hearing some swing being applied here, double check the master track to see if you've accidentally enabled some groove settings.

 

Dont the Qxx commands delay a line even with no note event on that line?

The global groove is disabled but it still sounds like it is all swung properly.

There are no problems that I can hear.

 

Is there a way I can attach the song file?



#29 lettuce

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 00:51

Not sure if it was just a typo, but in these three examples the Qxx delay commands will have no effect, since they do not actually line up with any notes.

If you are in fact hearing some swing being applied here, double check the master track to see if you've accidentally enabled some groove settings.

 

I've had a chance to look into this probem briefly once again.

 

I would like to point out that what is stated in the renoise manual is that delay column delay commands can only delay 'notes' and 'note offs', whilst the 'Qxx' delay commands can delay the whole line even with no note or event present. Therefore, the swung triplets by Qxx commands in the master track technique outlined above should still work. Its a shame that it was not possible to do it without using 12LPB.

 

-Qxx - Delay playback of the line by xx ticks (00 - TPL).

 

00-FF - The delay column can only be used to delay a note or Note-Off

 

By using 12LPB in renoise, milkytracker and sunvox it will be possible to achieve interoperability of swung triplets across all three softwares. Writing swung triplets stuff whilst out and about on milkytracker ( PDA ) and sunvox ( android tablet ), later rendering those parts to sample then using them in renoise. It should be possibe to do these 12LPB swung triplets in LittleGameParkTracker for PSP as well, but it will be a total mindphuq of line counting and HOP commands.

 

I would also like to bring attention to the fact that in the global groove, the sliders all go to 100%.

This is wrong.


Edited by lettuce, 14 June 2018 - 01:06.


#30 dblue

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 08:47

I've had a chance to look into this probem briefly once again. (...)


When we say 'line' in reference to the Qxx command we mean 'any note on that line', it does not mean that Qxx will interrupt the timing behaviour of the entire playback engine and allow you to temporarily delay everything (even empty space) by xx ticks.

Generally speaking, pattern commands that are intended to somehow affect the behaviour of a note (or notes) can only work when they are triggered in direct correlation to the actual note data, not on some other empty line.

That's simply how the playback engine operates internally: Note commands must be paired with actual note data that can be processed by those commands, using command values that are actually within valid ranges, otherwise the commands are basically ignored.


If you do want a command that can delay the entire playback engine, try this one:

ZDxx - Delay (pause) pattern playback by xx lines.

It goes without saying that this will of course screw with the 'true' BPM of your song, since you are forcing playback to halt temporarily.


Speaking personally, I think the more important point to raise here is: who actually cares if the timing does not precisely match that of SomeHardwareX or SomeTrackerY?

How much time and energy is being wasted worrying about the minutiae of the playback engine, or stressing about timing percentages that are not 'accurate' (compared to SomeOther...) down to the Nth decimal place?

"Oh no! When I bring my render into an audio editor and compare the note timings with samplerate accuracy, my groove seems to be off by 0.037% compared to my favourite drum machine from the 80s!"

Seriously... Worry about how your music actually sounds to the listener, not how the pattern data looks or what the decimal places in your calculator tell you. :)


Just Make Funky Music™
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#31 El°HYM

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 17:12

Just Make Funky Music™

 


Inside ur Renoise; helping Byte-Smasher putting Cab Sims on ur Master.  :ph34r: 


#32 lettuce

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Posted 14 June 2018 - 23:02

If Qxx can only delay a note or note off ( same as delay column delay commands ), then it seems trackers in general have a problem with swinging triplets, except for renoise that is, because it has global groove. This messes with interoperability of swung stuff or makes it difficult to sample out of other trackers if I wanted to swing triplets the same as in renoise anyway.

 

I dont really want to use the ZDxx command, because as you said it will mess with the BPM.

 

The global groove can be used to swing triplets accurately if the LPB is 12, because at 12 LPB delay commands do not need to be used for triplets...I'm assuming that if triplets were made with the use of delay commands at other LPBs ( 4LPB, 8 LPB ) then they would not be swung properly by the global groove.

How does the global groove swing the triplets nice at 12LPB?

 

Two quick questions...

The global groove sliders go to 100%, most other hardware and software will have maximum 75% swing.

How can I translate renoise groove slider values into normal groove slider values?

 

I want to use a lot of swing and triplets in general and sample from other software.

If the rendered samples with swing dont line up properly with the renoise swing it sounds all hoofclod, like flams.

Thats why I care about the details of how swing in renoise works with regard to triplets ( maybe later other tuplets as well ).

Swing and tuplets arguably make for more funkiness in music patterns.

 

Of course if I use no swing at all then I can sample patterns with tuplets from other trackers no problem, plus with the use of the phrase editor it is possible to create crazy other tuplets...nonuplets, tredecuplets. However, no swing sounds quite lifeless, somewhat robotic.

Does global groove apply its swing to phrases used in a song too? Phrases might use different LPB. Will the swings of phrases with different LPB align with swings in pattern editor?


Edited by lettuce, 15 June 2018 - 02:25.






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