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#1 Man

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 20:45

Do I really need it if I'm looking at creating this brand of techno?

It's usually without any melody and is what I call percussion techno, I don't know if it's an official genre.

 

 


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#2 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 21:32

Most definitely 


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#3 encryptedmind

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 21:42

Most definitely

Most definitely - yes or no?:(

If you could finger drum percussion samples and th3 'uuhh' voice sample and the whiplash snare on the offbeat accent and play the rest in a syncopated African hand drum style on a 16 pad pretty sure you can make this with recording a 4 bar loop and then layering hats and over it.

Since there are no melody or harmony those items would not be needed in this recipe. You could however read up on African polyrhythms, syncopation, Euclidean rhythms, hand drum technique , call and response style arrangments, tribal instruments, research World Music sample libraries, look up on the gear and background of the artist on question, study Latin genre rhythms, gypsy hand claps and Romani music and listen to lot of Tribal House genre and Tribal Industrial bands like 'This Morn Omina' to get this kind of sound. Ricthie Hawtin also plays some tribal techno stuff from time to time to check his playlists out.

https://www.youtube....95FCBm_Bb5fsuZ_

Edited by encryptedmind, 28 January 2018 - 21:44.

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#4 FossilCreature

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 22:54

I took a music theory class in college for non-majors and I thought it helped a little. I have been going many years making music chromatically just to realize that most of my good songs were good because I stuck to C major and simple timing. I wanted to go beyond that. I bought a book called music theory for computer musicians. It's a helpful green book for people like us. I learned that I can't break the rules if I don't know them in first place. You don't need it that much for creating beats though.


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#5 Man

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 23:35

Most definitely 

 

Could you tell me why or how?  Unless it's the things encryptedmind is talking about.



#6 Man

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Posted 28 January 2018 - 23:40

Most definitely - yes or no? :(

If you could finger drum percussion samples and th3 'uuhh' voice sample and the whiplash snare on the offbeat accent and play the rest in a syncopated African hand drum style on a 16 pad pretty sure you can make this with recording a 4 bar loop and then layering hats and over it.

Since there are no melody or harmony those items would not be needed in this recipe. You could however read up on African polyrhythms, syncopation, Euclidean rhythms, hand drum technique , call and response style arrangments, tribal instruments, research World Music sample libraries, look up on the gear and background of the artist on question, study Latin genre rhythms, gypsy hand claps and Romani music and listen to lot of Tribal House genre and Tribal Industrial bands like 'This Morn Omina' to get this kind of sound. Ricthie Hawtin also plays some tribal techno stuff from time to time to check his playlists out.

https://www.youtube....95FCBm_Bb5fsuZ_

Thanks for all the items I could study up on!  I'll most certainly look into that. 

If this is also called "Music Theory" then yeah I need it.

 

I'm a big fan of This Morn' Omina, this is also the sound I'm after. 

Cool one, although I very rarely use vocals myself.

 

There is also Death Abyss, huge percussion sections.

 

This is more going towards Industrial Techno (I think :) )


Edited by Man, 28 January 2018 - 23:41.

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#7 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 01:29

At O.P. 

Percussion techo ..is that a new genre ? Seriously .....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


 

 

 

I don't get you  ..your signature says ..fookin with da knobs since 1991  ..yet you ask a question if you need any music theory to make hard old skool teknooo.

You had 26 years to find out .

 

Yes and no ..;theory is mighyt interesting...the hardest part is breakin out of the theory  ..emotional versus analytical ...


Edited by gentleclockdivider, 29 January 2018 - 01:32.

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THERE IS NO RELIGION SUPERIOR TO THE TRUTH


THERE IS NO TRUTH SUPERIOR TO THE ONE I CHOOSE

C'EST MIEUX D'ETRE BELLE ET REBELLE


QUE MOCHE ET REMOCHE



RUBIO RABIA

 


#8 lettuce

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 02:41

"morality is a handicap"?

 

What the fuck is that shit about?

 

Anyways "music theory for computer musicians" is here and free:

 

http://www.oldschool...mputerMusic.pdf


Edited by lettuce, 29 January 2018 - 02:42.

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#9 El°HYM

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 10:34

"morality is a handicap"?

 

What the fuck is that shit about?

 

Anyways "music theory for computer musicians" is here and free:

 

http://www.oldschool...mputerMusic.pdf

 

Me remembers this one...sure a good read & must have, kind of.

 

Many thanks, bro!


At O.P. 

Percussion techo ..is that a new genre ? Seriously .....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't get you  ..your signature says ..fookin with da knobs since 1991  ..yet you ask a question if you need any music theory to make hard old skool teknooo.

You had 26 years to find out .

 

Yes and no ..;theory is mighyt interesting...the hardest part is breakin out of the theory  ..emotional versus analytical ...

 

Other than that...

 

..Just:

 


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#10 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 29 January 2018 - 23:38

m'kay then .

Goodluck with your journey...and fookin with da knobs ..


THERE IS NO RELIGION SUPERIOR TO THE TRUTH


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#11 Man

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 01:09

"morality is a handicap"?

 

What the fuck is that shit about?

 

Anyways "music theory for computer musicians" is here and free:

 

http://www.oldschool...mputerMusic.pdf

I have the book, some of the exercises' answers are wrong so how can I learn anything from a book like that?

They also mention 11- and 13-note chords, is that for aliens with 10+ fingers?

And then they still talk about notation stuff with bass and treble clef ... wth?  All completely useless to me, I don't even know what key my songs are in.  Uhm ... C4 since I used a kick to start the song with? :)

 

I know I used some music theory before since I made a piano and violin song which definitely had that in them, I just don't know what part of MT I used.  I'd only learn it to break most of its rules anyway.



#12 lettuce

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 03:02

The numbers in chords refer to the degrees of a major scale, when they go past 8 it means the chord spans more than one octave.

 

2 Octaves of the C Major scale with scale degrees :

 

1-C 2-D 3-E 4-F 5-G 6-A 7-B 8-C 9-D 10-E 11-F 12-G 13-A 14-B

 

C11 has the 11th degree F.

Weirdly it looks like the E that would be found in CMaj ( which should be the first part of C11 ) has been left out in the C11 example I have.

Also I have no idea where in the chord name "C11" a Bb can be found, so I am also confused by this.

 

C11, otherwise known as  C9 ( sus4 ) :

 

Treble Clef

 

C4  G4  Bb4  D5  F5

L5   L1  R1    R2  R4

 

Bass Clef

 

C3 G3 Bb4 D4 F4

L5  L1 R1   R2 R4

 

C13 has the 13th degree, A. Apart from that the same confusion from the first post applies. I have no idea where the Bb came from, and in this case also no idea where the D came from. The E has been included this time.

 

C13 :

 

Treble Clef

 

C4 E4 G4 Bb4 D5 A5

L5 L3  L1 R1   R2 R5

 

Bass Clef

 

C3 E3 G3 Bb3 D4 A4

L5 L3  L1  R1  R2  R5


Edited by lettuce, 30 January 2018 - 03:41.

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#13 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 03:37

 

They also mention 11- and 13-note chords, is that for aliens with 10+ fingers?

 

Sostenuto pedal , sustains specific notes by lifiting the dampers . 

 . ( not to be  confused with the sustain pedal , which sustains all notes by llifting all dampers  )

 

sadly these are only found on grand piano , majority of buffet don't have a a sostenuto pedal .


Edited by gentleclockdivider, 30 January 2018 - 03:40.

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C'EST MIEUX D'ETRE BELLE ET REBELLE


QUE MOCHE ET REMOCHE



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#14 lettuce

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 03:39

O.K. The author of the book from which I retrieved the last two examples ( Hal-Leonard ) may have abbreviated those chords a bit by leaving out the Es as it is meant to be a book of keyboardists chords rather than piano chords.

 

There are three types of 11 and 13 chords ( major, min and dominant ).

When they are written C11 or C13 (without maj or min indicated ) it means C dominant eleventh and C dominant 13th.

 

Here I have a better set of examples :

 

the numbers 11 and 13 refer to scale degrees ( past one octave, which ends at scale degree 8 ) of the major scale of the root note of the chord ( in this case C ).

 

C MAJOR

 

1-C 2-D 3-E 4-F 5-G 6-A 7-B 8-C 9-D 10-E 11-F 12-G 13-A 14-B

 

C11 ( C Dominant 11th )

 

C4 E4 G4 Bb4 D5 F5

L4 L2  L1  R1  R2  R4

 

1st C, 3rd E, 5th G, b7th Bb, 9th D, 11th F

 

So in the C11 chord name 'C' refers to 'C major' ( C E G )...11th refers to F....I'm guessing the 'dominant' part of the name refers to 'b7th Bb'...and I have no idea why there is a 'D'?

 

C13 ( C Dominant 13th )

 

C3 E3 G3 Bb3 D4 F4 A4

R4 R2 R1 L1   L2  L3 L5

 

1st C, 3rd E, 5th G, b7th Bb, 9th D, 11th F, 13th A

 

In 'C13' chord name the 'C' refers to C major (  C E G ), I guess the 'dominant' refers to 'b7th Bb', the '13' refers to 'A' ( which is the 13th degree of C major scale )...I guess the 9th 'D' and the '11th' F are assumed and dont have to be specified if going all the way to 13.


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#15 lettuce

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 03:49

Its a little known fact that tchaikovsky used a sequencer to compose...It was called the "orchestrion"...it was sequenced by punching holes in long sheets of paper..He could play piano as well though. I'm not really feeling his songs though to be honest.

 


Edited by lettuce, 30 January 2018 - 03:50.

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#16 lettuce

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 03:59

Heres one where you can see the pianoroll style sheets of card with holes cut into them

 


Edited by lettuce, 30 January 2018 - 03:59.


#17 radian

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Posted 30 January 2018 - 14:41

You don't need theory just to copy something; just like a baby doesn't learn grammar to learn to talk, but copies what it hears.

But if you want to figure out what it is about a track you like you'll be better off knowing some.

If you think music theory only covers melody you're wrong, all elements of music can be talked about in a theoretical way.

That's the same as someone saying "these tracks aren't music as they don't have melody"
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#18 lettuce

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Posted 31 January 2018 - 02:42

Yeah, music theory is also rhythm and timbre.

I started learning more recently and I can see how if someone said they needed a tune that sounds "spooky" or "nostalgic" or "mystical" or whatever its easier to go straight to the scales which sound that way and exract chords from them to write a tune. Makes the whole song writing process faster and the results sound better. Standing on the shoulders of giants or whatevr. Discovering more by building on previous discoveries.


Edited by lettuce, 31 January 2018 - 02:45.


#19 radian

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 12:33

A timely post from NI for you : https://blog.native-...h-music-theory/



#20 Man

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 19:29

I guess I'll have to have at least a basic understanding.  I also have "Music Theory For Dummies" and I must be a dummy :) since this book explains things in a more understandable way.

Giving it another try ...



#21 Man

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 20:01

A timely post from NI for you : https://blog.native-...h-music-theory/

Looks good, thanks.



#22 El°HYM

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Posted 01 February 2018 - 20:08

Its a little known fact that tchaikovsky used a sequencer to compose...It was called the "orchestrion"...it was sequenced by punching holes in long sheets of paper..He could play piano as well though. I'm not really feeling his songs though to be honest.

 

 

I agree on tchaikovsky maybe being the most prominent & well known; yet there are sure lots of others & better russian composers:


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#23 MonsterRadioMan

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 05:06

Music theory is just a tool, and one of many we as musicians have at our disposal. Should you learn music theory? Yeah I think you should if you are a serious musician working within the confines of western music. But will it solve all of your musical problems? Hell no. What it can do is give you a valuable tool set which can aid you in analysis, composition and communication. I can tell you that band practices are a hell of a lot easier if the people involved understand the language of harmony. I don't have to consistently play a riff for 45 minutes till my fellow performers diligently transcribe my lines note for note. Instead I can simply say, this phrase has a swing feel and revolves around a ii V I in G Major where the V is a D7b9. Something along those lines, you get the idea. I can also open any Beethoven string quartet and begin to break it apart, figure out the nuts and bolts of the piece, and see how it all works, not unlike an engineer studying a schematic. I can do the same with any electronic piece. I can transcribe the piece, put it into a useful road map, and possibly perform it later in a fast way by presenting it to musicians with the same understanding. Since we have that same understanding we can discuss it and rip it apart, find new ways to reharmonize it. You don't NEED music theory but it is a part of western music tradition and an invaluable tool that the world has helped shape and build over hundreds of years.

 

Another thing to consider. Music theory, in terms of the paper side of things is very valuable, but there's also the practical side of music theory that can't be emphasized enough. This includes, ear training, so, melodic, harmonic and rhythmic dication, hearing intervals and recognizing them, chord recognition, hearing scales and knowing them inside and out, plus rhythm study, conducting, sight singing and a whole host of other skills that will do SO much for you as a musician. All of these skills build off each other and are a part of becoming a well rounded musician. Different musical traditions have their own ways of doing these things, or emphasize different skills, but they still their own traditions that if you're serious about understanding, it would really benefit you to learn.

 

In the grand scheme of things, music theory isn't so much a set of strict rules as it is a set of observations and names for those things we've observed.



#24 lettuce

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 05:24

I like the descriptions of chords by renoise arp commands:

 

a 'C-037' chord

a 'G-047' chord

an 'A-036' chord



#25 encryptedmind

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Posted 02 February 2018 - 13:37

Excellent starter lectures on music theory:

Start with music theory for producers:







Edited by encryptedmind, 02 February 2018 - 13:38.

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