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Can someone help with LFO to panning problem?

LFO Panning Automation

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#1 lettuce

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Posted 05 February 2018 - 22:35

I'm trying to work out how to get the LFO amplitude and offset setup to move the mixer-panning slider through specific ranges.

These are the ranges I want the LFO to move the panning slider through :

 

Moving away from centre-left ( 0L ) towards hard left:

 

7F - 70

6F - 60

5F - 50

4F - 40

5F - 50

4F - 40

3F - 30

2F - 20

1F - 10

0F - 00

 

Moving away from centre-right ( 0R ) towards hard right:

 

80 - 8F

90 - 9F

A0 - AF

B0 - BF

C0 - CF

D0 - DF

E0 - EF

F0 - FF

 

Here is an example of what I mean by using LFO to get panning 'moving through specific ranges' and the panning structures I am trying to set up:

 

2 INSTRUMENTS MOVING THROUGH A RANGE AND 1 INSTRUMENT AT 'CENTRE'

Use -Pxx ( set panning position ), 1800 ( LFO reset ) + LFO amplitude, offset and frequency automation lanes.
'CENTRE' occupies 2 panning positions ( 'centre - left' and 'centre - right', 'O-L' and '0-R' ).
Instruments 2-A and 2-B are the exact same instrument each with volume reduced to half ( hex40, dec64 ).
Instruments 2-A and 2-B need one track each.
Instruments 2-A and 2-B are each panned to one of the 'CENTRE' points ( 7F and 80 ).

Each instrument will be placed in its own track.
All tracks ( except 'CENTRE' tracks ) should have an LFO device with the custom envelopes set up as described above ( so that the panning slider moves away from centre, from centre towards hard left, from centre towards hard right. ).
Set all the LFO devices to 'mixer - panning'.
Place an 'LFO reset' command ( 1800 ) in each track at the start of each pattern.

Instrument 1 * : 7F ( 127 ) [ CENTRE - left ] to 00 ( 00 ) [ hard left ]
Instrument 2A : -P7F ( 127 ) [ CENTRE - left ]
Instrument 2B : -P80 ( 128 ) [ CENTRE - right ]
Instrument 3 * : 80 ( 128 ) [ CENTRE - right ] to FF ( 255 ) [ hard right ] 

* Instrument 1 :

Set 'LFO amplitude' to 50% in an automation lane, using one point on line 00 in each track of each pattern.
Set 'LFO offset' to 25% in an automation lane, using one point on line 00 in each track of each pattern.
Set 'LFO frequency' to '4 lines per cycle' in an automation lane, using one point on line 00 in each track of each pattern.

* Instrument 3 :

Set 'LFO amplitude' to 50% in an automation lane, using one point on line 00 in each track of each pattern.
Set 'LFO offset' to 75% in an automation lane, using one point on line 00 in each track of each pattern.
Set 'LFO frequency' to '4 lines per cycle' in an automation lane, using one point on line 00 in each track of each pattern.

 

In the example above the panning slider moves from 'centre' to hard left and hard right ( instruments 1 and 3 ) but I want the slider to move from 7F  ( 0L ) to hard left and 80 ( 0R ) to hard right instead. I am having the same problem for each of the panning ranges I mentioned at the start. Any help? I am stuck with this. I presume the "central" panning point on the mixer-panning slider must be both 7F and 80 together?

 

These are the notes about the custom LFO envelopes used :

 

The LFO will use a custom envelope.

Set the number of points for the custom envelope to 25.

This will leave 12 points on either side of the central point at 12 ( 0 is the first point )

Place 3 points in the custom envelope.

Point 1 at 0, point 2 at 12 and point 3 at 24.

Set the interpolation mode for the custom envelope to 'curve'

For all panning movements from centre to left set point 1 at 100%, point 2 at 0% and point 3 at 100%

For all panning movements from centre to right set point 1 at 0%, point 2 at 100% and point 3 at 0%

This will ensure that all panning movements start by moving away from centre.


Edited by lettuce, 05 February 2018 - 23:10.


#2 OopsIFly

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 15:37

Not sure if I understood your idea correctly...but maybe you should try to use a hydra in between the lfo and the mixer panning? then the LFO amplitude 100% offset 50% and define panning ranges in the hydra. As you can point to multiple mixer devices via the hydra, it will also allow you to move track pannings in sync, through different ranges, from the same LFO.



#3 lettuce

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 17:02

Thanks for helping me out with this. Much appreciated.

 

I'll try to explain it better in a less long-winded way.

 

I want to make a panning setup in which there is a 'static' / 'still' instrument at the centre with all other instruments moving in symmetrical panning ranges ( each instrument except centred instrument moving through two ranges; one range on left, the other on the right side of centre ).

 

I was going to do it with a combination of -Pxx and -Nxy ( Panning command and auto-pan - regular pan variation command), or panning column plus panning column Jx and Kx commands but it seems that the -Nxy command cycles out of time. Its cycles are not aligned with lines at any setting ( it cycles out of time in the same way as -Vxy and -Txy commands ). The Jx and Kx commands ( panning column slide left / right ) will work in time with the song, but only if ticks per line is 8. Perhaps these commands still have some legacy behaviour from an older version of renoise? I dont want to use them as I need my panning movements to stay in time with the song and I need to use TPL 12.

 

As there is no way to make an instruments panning movement within a range cycle in time with the use of commands, I have decided to use a combination of -Pxx panning commands ( for the still, centred instrument ) and LFOs set to 'mixer-panning' ( for the instruments which are each moving through symmetrical ranges ).

 

When I say 'symmetrical ranges' I mean that each instrument ( except for the centred instrument ) will be moving through two pan ranges equi-distant from centre, and that the movements will always be 'away from centre' towards hard left and towards hard right.

 

This is where I ran into the problem.

 

The panning slider has a total of 256 panning points ( 00 - FF )...00, hard-left, is the first of the panning points.

This means that a centred instrument must use two panning points at the same time ( 7F and 80, or '0L' and '0R' ). Its annoying because every division of the left half and right half will require two pan points to achieve the symmetry I am aiming for. For example 'Half-way left' will be 3F and 40, 'Half way right' will be BF and C0 ( I did a full example of the ranges here : http://forum.renoise...-is-not-centre/ ).

 

So I need to set the LFO to get the panning slider moving through the following ranges accurately:

 

Moving away from centre-left ( 0L ) towards hard left:

 

7F - 70

6F - 60

5F - 50

4F - 40

3F - 30

2F - 20

1F - 10

0F - 00

 

Moving away from centre-right ( 0R ) towards hard right:

 

80 - 8F

90 - 9F

A0 - AF

B0 - BF

C0 - CF

D0 - DF

E0 - EF

F0 - FF

 

I can get the LFO to move the panning slider from 'centre' ( 7F and 80 at the same time ) to hard left or hard right by using amplitude and offset ( at 50% and 25% or 50% and 75%, with custom LFOs, one of which is 'flipped' to keep the movements 'away from centre' in both left and right side ranges ).

 

What I am trying to do is get LFO to move the panning slider from 7F ( 0L ) to 00, and 80 ( 0R ) to FF instead.

 

After I can achieve this I want to use the LFO to move the panning slider accurately through the ranges outlined above ( for example F0 to FF, E0 to EF ), but I cant achieve the accuracy I need. I dont know how to set up LFO amplitude and offset properly to do so.

 

Its weird. If I use the -Pxx command, centre ( and 'half way left / right', 'quarter left / right ', one eighth left / right', and so on ) will all need two points ( and two tracks each containing an instance of the same instrument at half volume, with each panned to one of the points ) to maintain symmetrical accuracy and not be 'lopsided' or out by one pan point. This is because 00 - FF is a total of 256 points, an equal number.

 

However if I use the panning column, which goes to 80, there are 129 points. As 129 is an odd number, its possible to use only one point for centre ( and 'half way left / right', 'quarter left / right ', one eighth left / right' etc.).

 

When using the panning column ( rather than the -Pxx panning command ) centre is one point.

40 is 'panning point 65' and has 64 panning points either side of it.

There is no need to use two points for 'centre ( or half-left, one eighth left etc. ) as there is when using -Pxx panning command.

This is ideal but the panning slider is set up to use 00 - FF ( like the -Pxx panning command ) instead of 00 - 80 like the panning column.

 

I dont know how to set the LFO amplitude and offset to achieve the kind of accuracy of panning slider movement that would allow me to move from, say 30 to 3F or 7F to 00.

 

Sorry I couldnt explain that more briefly.


Edited by lettuce, 06 February 2018 - 19:36.


#4 OopsIFly

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 18:03

Some food for thought:

 

I believe the panning slider, which is no pattern effect like the panning column but a dsp slider like all other effect parameters, when programmed via pattern fx, has similar shortcomings like the LFO frequency. You are not able to program a 100% center value and all in between will also be slightly off. Also it will allow much finer resolution than displayed. You can read out the real value from zero (left) to one (right) with 0.5 being the center with a lua command. Enable scripting terminal and editor, fire up the editor and go to "terminal". Then execute in the lowest line by copy&paste the command

print ( renoise.song().tracks[1].devices[1].parameters[1].value )

It will print out the real zero to one value of the first track's mixer panning. You will see if you set it by pattern command box 0x7f as 0x80 aren't dead center! And if you move it in finetune mode (hold ctrl while dragging with mouse) you can access values between the displayed ones.

 

Problem with the pattern effects commands in renoise is, they go from 0x00 to 0xff, so from 0 to 255, not from 0x00 to 0x100 -> 0 to 256, and the problem with this is there is no exact center to that range 0..255, it would be 127.5 which you cannot select with a pattern command. But you can use meta devices to correct for that error, if you set them up right.

 

Controlling the panning slider with a meta device like formula, hydra, LFO etc will allow you to get stepless and accurate panning for a track, using automation of an LFO. I could also try to make one of those formula devices for you later today, like the ones I just did for the LFO frequency, that will allow to set the mixer pan in symmetrical fashion with pattern commands. It is a simple task for me, but it involves lots of freedom to define how exactly the three possible parameters will operate and influence the panning.

 

as for the LFO offset/amplitude I still suggest you link the LFO not into the panning slider, but into a hydra first. Then the hydra into the panning slider. You can define min/max for the hydra, so you can define the range of motion, you can also make a min larger (further right) than the max, and it will reverse the motion (to get mirror symmetry), and also as bonus you can let the same LFO or automation graph control multiple panning sliders, each within their own range.

 

Of course the panning via mixer has the shortcoming when compared to panning column/effects for notes, that it will just pan the audio track, whilst panning column will pan individual notes. Maybe both can be combined for a more complex result.



#5 lettuce

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Posted 06 February 2018 - 20:01

Thankyou. I will try LFO - Hydra - Panning tonight.

 

The technique using a scripting terminal which you described above is a bit too advanced for me.

I have no scripting skills whatsoever. It is good to know that the panning slider is much higher resolution than the -Pxx command resolution.

That explains why, through the use of the panning column, it is possible to have a single centre point whereas when using -Pxx commands it is not.

 

No need to write another formula device. I dont want to take up too much of your time, but thankyou for reading through that long post and giving such a detailed and informative answer. I think LFO - Hydra - Panning will solve my problem.


Edited by lettuce, 06 February 2018 - 20:01.






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: LFO, Panning, Automation