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Renoise for Android in future


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#1 encryptedmind

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Posted 06 April 2018 - 22:16

I see this as an immense market for devs. Caustic has over a million downloads which can translate to money success as well in addition to an excellent piece of software.

The features of Renoise can be pared down a little and support usb keyboard and mouse via OTG(or Bluetooth for Midi and Wist by Korg, OSC). Keep the essential views and lose the VST support because Android does not use VST. This actually makes it even simpler. Keep the instrument window and pattern editor. Make the pattern sequencer as a drag from left window. Mixer as a separate tab and keep things full screen mode for maximum usability.

In an older interview Keiran Foster mentioned that Taktik has built a multiplatform compiler framework that does all the dirty work for getting code for Windows Linux and Mac from one source code. I suppose all of that can be extended to Android as well. Try to use an ARM compiler for the same C++ code, embedding a Lua interpreter is easy enough at that stage since it's a small executable. You get bulk of the core features and also make a presence on the mobile platform. It would be great to have a Renoise App. Add some creative features and upload to App store and do some marketing. All of us will no doubt buy the first batch as existing Renoise users so the revenues part is taken care of as a Kickstarter. The rest is upto the vast mobile user network who might be very fascinated to have a tracker on their phones. It can also be a separate app that mimics Renoise and it's UI and features. It's so doable that it feels like a missing spot. Then expansion packs and samples can be added as other apps are doing it as in app purchases.

Do it all step by step, get the app out, write and publish some books and manuals and keep doing the good work as musicians, devs and marketers for those so inclined. More than just the business aspects it's the continuation of a legacy on a new platform which should certainly be encouraged as an idea.

Regarding literature part let me(or anyone else too) delve my hands on it step by step...In the mean time the app can come out and it can be a great way to introduce tracking and sampling on Android, Mac, Linux and Windows.

'Renoise Lite' would be a good place to start. Redux is doing ok but it's missing the core benefits of using Renoise in the first place. However the app craze is going to be here for a good amount of time, so now is the time to ride the tide.

Sunvox is also coded in C++ and has an app version too. I think the devs have really no excuse to be creative and purposeful this time around while certainly keeping in mind what has has been accomplished so far.

Many such frameworks now exist like Xamarin that can take advantage of NDK and Java or C++ for Android and immediately for iOS too. 2 birds with one stone.

Think about it.

Edited by encryptedmind, 06 April 2018 - 22:23.

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Posted 07 April 2018 - 11:02

I think this is pretty impossible to do, because of the frameworks used in Renoise. These focus for macos/windows/linux cross compatibility, rather than any other OS. Also I would say Android is not made for audio and never will be, because of its JIT compiling JAVA nature. Only a few, very expensive, new devices are reaching a latency below 15ms, and this still is way higher than the very first iOS device from 2007. That said I am not a fan of the lock-in into Apple world either.

 

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Edited by ffx, 07 April 2018 - 11:05.


#3 afta8

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Posted 07 April 2018 - 12:33

I think it would have limited appeal, a key aspect of trackers in general is the keyboard centric workflow and this doesn’t translate well to a touch interface. SunVox is painful to use because of this.

Perhaps the Renoise DSP and audio engine be the basis of an audio app but unless it is offering something new I don’t think the return on investment makes it worth doing. Also anyone serious about making music on tablets etc would be using iOS and that is a crowded market, with big players already present offering decent touch optimised apps.

Personally I would like to see Renoise compiled for ARM and running on Raspberry PI. That would be interesting.

I don’t really understand the obsession with making Renoise mass market or focussing on money success. It’s been going for 16 or so years so they must be doing something right..
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#4 encryptedmind

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Posted 07 April 2018 - 12:51

Latency is a good argument. However how many of us use it as a live device? Most of tracking is done passively anyways as has always been the way. Android latency is not too bad at all as of now and it's only getting better. For my Lenovo Android phone I record midi data directly from LPK25 to Caustic or Sunvox and it records the crucial syncopated notes as well as accented notes both with a very high degree of accuracy and when I play the synthesizer or sampler it plays without any latency at all that can hinder music production. So while audio production as a full fledged Protools system will not yet work on Android the basic parts work just fine.

Audio Evolution by eXstream software has their own audio driver for Android based on their tests and it's an in app purchase but the supported devices list is huge and it brings down latency to about 5ms. Audio evolution has inbuilt FX and automation and Midi and audio tracks like a DAW. If these guys can get it done, Caustic and Sunvox too get it done, then I don't see a reason why Renoise cannot leverage the app market and make it fun for thise of us who are on the move and can still work on Renoise projects and new parties as well.

But when it comes to implementation, Mac and Linux and Windows all 3 use x64 Intel chips for the most part. So things are getting unified even at corporate level where competition and profits precede anything else. However again, their audio APIs are all different too. Core Audio and Win32 or Win64 programming are as different as they get. JUCE and similar frameworks are the next step where a unified interface and API that works across all platforms are to be leveraged.

Now to the actual file assets, samples are Wav and ogg or FLAC which are totally cross platform. The Renoise project files are zip files and the internal contents are XML based which are well supported technologies across all platforms. So any Android software that can spit out a valid zip archive with Renoise specific settings will work without a doubt. The app can initally focus on bare bones Renoise projects that are fully native and can be loaded on Desktop version too. Once that is done through rest can be built upon.

The internal algorithms can be no doubt converted to any language for a mobile platform. If the project settings and samples are not proprietary then in theory anyone can write a Renoise clone for Android.

The addition of some cool features will no doubt boost app sales like a built in looper of market quality which is not available in desktop versions so something extra to bank on. A 16 pad drum sampler grid to play on phone which can also be linked to midi. A piano roll can be implemented from scratch for the novice masses who still would like a DAW on Android that does tracking and sampling and looping and 16 pad beat sequencing..These are all features that Renoise does not have in desktop versions. But these features are already doable and available on many sub par apps who do this very badly or very good apps who don't combine all of this well. I think it's a great opportunity for Renoise to bring another new thing to the app market.

Edited by encryptedmind, 07 April 2018 - 12:55.

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#5 encryptedmind

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Posted 07 April 2018 - 13:21

For app store user bases, iOS has it the best no doubt and many big hitting companies with a legacy as old as 40 plus years and more are still engaging themaelves on the app market. Korg gadget is Mac and iOS only. Korg Electribe app is iOS only. iMPC app is similar. Beat maker 3 same thing. But FLStudio has an app version too. Not that it has to work directly with the desktop version but it certainly covers the market presence part. Gol who is like Taktik for FLStudio is from Belgium and also handles all marketing and development with his small company very similar to Renoise. Both are very successful in their staying power and have a competitive market. But in this theme Gol and FLStudio are taking a right approach as far as a drum machine is concerned. Their mobile app is not too interesting in my opinion but it's a valid application.

A good quality tracker for either iOS or Android is sorely missing.

For note entry I agree SunVox is a pain to use but here is where a good UI research can be done as nice project that culminates to a store app. How do you translate the speed and intuitiveness of a tracker to a touchscreen device?. Keyboard mode is already expected via Bluetooth or OTG cable. So a UI which enables drag and drop of just 7 notes from C-B and then simple swipe motion for up down or octaves or double click to sharp or flat and so on...can be done as a simple but highly effective note entry method. Also because this app will do lots of other mobile specific entertaining features you don't have to bank on exclusively for that classic tracking audience. As I said include a piano tool too. Include audio tracks too... Now is the time to implement all that and not on the desktop version by using Lua scripts. Apps will be welcomed far more widely and readily than the desktop versions.

Also cater to everyone, not just musicians with a hollywood film scoreing budget but new users, music enthusiasts, hobbyists, music students, looper users, finger drummers, regular DAW users who dont necessarily know about tracking but have that option to explore it from their mobile device and so on...

Csound which has a 30 year history originally written by Max Matthews and currently maintained by Victor Lazzarinni and community work done by Richard Boulanger and others..also have staying power and after years of APIs and academic oriented books...they also have a CSOUND app now bringing it to the more people. And it's not like such frameworks are used by Junkie XL or Taylor Swift or Hans Zimmer...these guys are the original sound scientists and software experts who have the unique distinction that they also compose and produce music. How many people buy their books or tools(free btw) or watch their YouTube channel seminars, but they have a CSOUND community, Berklee courses for music technology, published books (4 books as of now), apps, a parallel academic career in various Universities of Arts and Sciences. Most importantly they have collectively built a highly extensible audio framework from the lab work at Bell Labs to a long lasting language like C where so many audio frameworks in the past have come and gone. And another most important thing is that they have built a body of compositions too and they keep working on it at an academic level and artistic level. They are also excellent programmers and technicians. I think it's a unique community to learn a lot from and possibly even contribute to in future.

Back to Renoise, an app is most definitely worth it just like a video training series or a book is totally worth it too.

It's the thing about this scene that academics can't figure out...no one takes the initiatives to explore a few avenues a little further than our comfort zone.

Forget money BS, think community building and knowledge sharing and dissemination of a high quality software. Also make it a paid app btw...that settles all arguments.




NB.

(@Dblue: apriori, this is not an anti this or anti that post segment and it's purely a side debate on a well constructed and written about intellectual topic that has its origins in Europe, you should have interest in this by all means...i.e. highly recommended topic)

I have been reading a lot recently about 17th century French culture and the history of its Bourgeoisie (and the significance of the the word) and its various connotations for the past 300 years or so till today. The fact that after monarchies and tyrannical rulers got over in the past few centuries, the age of the merchant or business man has taken over. If you read the analysis of Goethe and Nietzsche and other playwrights and political analysts you will find that they universally detest the 'price mentality' and terms like 'conspicuous consumption' or words like 'philistine' and 'vulgarian' come to fore. All these terms including Bourgeoisie are meant to denigrate a person or a class of people who/which is not of true nobility but rather aspires to be part of it by pretentious ambitions and no integrity to speak of, at the very least in the historical sense of the word. Notably such people are uncouth and boorish to never pursue or cultivate intellectual and artistic or creative endeavours but always want other people to follow their league of being mostly petty money minded. For the most part even the intellectuals have observed this trend and class of people or section of society who thrive purely to live off material gains and a rather hollow way of getting ahead in life. For an intellectual or a creative working on his defining roles it's highly unlikely that any useful inputs would come from such demographics, which is reduced to mostly like a human ATM who can spit out sponsor money becos of the trade systems in place, with the added insult to injury that even the business classes understand their obvious limitations in these matters. Much like the 'proletariat' or the genuinely working class people who primarily have value based on their physical labour, the Bourgeoisie are good at not knowing the value or anything but are ready with a list of market prices to put onto anything. Oscar Wilde paraphrases that such people which is a large majority nowaydays 'know the price of everything and value of nothing', also labeled as 'social cynics'. It seems that these patterns have long been deconstructed by the intellectual and privileged community. Both have noticed the pretentiousness and hollow nature of the business demographic.

By my extrapolation of the same idea say in the future we live in a military economy, does every single intellectual, creative, academic and nobelman have to kill people physically to survive so that the social system sees them as full of merit? Likewise I strongly suggest reading up on classic literature to get an authoritarive view of the the moral decay and massive debasing of human potential and promise done by the 'money minders' all around that have taken over so far right after the very strata of society(upper nobility and intellectuals both, one has power the other prestige, the businessman has neither and mostly everything else by proxy, becos of gold in his pocket) that they have had ambitions for, yet know in their own hearts where they actually belong. It also remarkably equalises everyone to a bare score where getting ahead in the intellectual world meant investing years of contributive research and output whether in the arts or sciences or even politics of the emperor varieity, the businessman can mostly just borrow some capital(from like minded folks and institutions) and trade items up or down to make a commission out of it. Such is the nature of his contribution. Now, in today's world instead of young people pursuing contributory domains and without a doubt enriching themselves in parallel, they are getting suckered into thinking like the Bourgeoisie class and have made 'money scoring' and the subsequent 'conspicous consumption' their daily rigour and routine of life even raising it to 'life defining status'. This is what happens when such parties are given uncurtailed permission to become 'project managers' of the world. But none of this has gone unnoticed btw, the concerned parties still know what has happened and who we are dealing with.

Btw this is not mine but the analysis of intellectuals for the past 400 years..I have similar ideas but it saves time to stand on the shoulder of giants for two obvious benefits:You don't need to waste time reinventing the wheel and you travel faster ahead on their shoulders. Personal thanks to these brain power behemoths.:)


Taking cues from the legacy of intellectuals and creatives throughout the ages from the mists of time till today, rather than just aiming to be an entertainer, place art and your craft at the highest podium and it will enrich you and endow you with skill and wisdom till your late years and leave you with a legacy behind that you can be proud of. Be true to it and it shall be true to you. Be aware of the current 'merchant system' and do your best to survive and thrive with educated prowess, but also know what has been said and disseminated about it and burn that inner spark with full power. In my opinion don't become a Bourgeoise if you are an intellectual or a creative (and if you are of true nobility then you have every reason not too as well..).

This period will get worse and die out..

Good place for starting research :

https://en.m.wikiped...iki/Bourgeoisie


Edit: Sarcasm: Pretty sure Aristotle and Plato thought about getting royalties before writing their treatises(aka let me not write it becos no one will read it.. or pay me money to write it). The idea of political thought, oration and debate was born right out of Ancient Greece, in fact young guys were schooled on these skills by their mentors.

Edited by encryptedmind, 07 April 2018 - 16:39.

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#6 danoise

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Posted 07 April 2018 - 17:37

As afta8 points out, the deal-breaker is the keyboard-centric workflow. A tracker is basically a sampler/sequencer combo with 100+ buttons for fast operation. We don't even think about this - but try to approach a MIDI controller with as many buttons, unique functions and modifier keys... most people would run away screaming. But the (computer) keyboard is second nature to us, and (AFAIK) trackers are really the only music software that truly exploits that.  

 

So, if I was a software engineer I would see *that* as the opportunity - create a new, keyboard driven musical instrument. How many serious players are out there?  


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#7 encryptedmind

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Posted 07 April 2018 - 18:04

Ya well I get the idea too no doubt. Tracking is unique and the deal breaker on a touch screen CAN be a keyboard oriented workflow with the trackers tightly symbiotic integration of the computer keyboard by design.

I am however still inclined to think that just as many musicians use mobile devices in tandem with a hardware midi controller and the recent spate of Bluetooth midi devices too, along with various wireless keyboards that are palm sized using wireless dongles and Bluetooth computer keyboards in use too...there is an audience for this as well. Also given that making a total clone might not be the best design even by architecture issues such as vst not being supported on mobile devices..removing all the fluff if we can create a touchscreen friendly app that does tracking well enough with samples and the built in sequncer..we can add to this and put extensions that market it well to non tracker musicians too. Right now only the Milky tracker app is there.

Well maybe we can find an investor and sponsor and a small Android Dev team to work on this..
Cannot be done is not the best way to think of things and if not us then someone else will...in time.

Potentially if tracking blows up somehow becos some 3rdnparty app made it snazzy to make tracked music then it's our loss..
Looking at it another way every feature that seems irrelevant in the desktop versions of Renoise can be smoothly implemented as a trial run app including piano roll, looper and all that extra stuff that is useful for a wider audience.

Lastly for fast finger typers like myself, the best thing in a Renoise app would be to have a popup fully customisable keyboard right on the screen where I can type out all the notes and such while still having the right and left and up and down arrows for detailed navigation and less use of overt touchscreen interaction.
Designing a view specific keyboard which is super responsive would be a good place to start.

Ideas.....don't give up so soon...yall


Summarising the feature set:

Super responsive view specific keyboard for manual entry on the screen. The app must work from portrait mode only.

Piano roll built in.

16 pad sampler trigger pane, with 4 banks

Option to create and use XRNI files.

Wave slicer and wave editor

8 track looper with unlimited overdubs.

Full hardware keyboard support.

Midi input support.

Tap tempo, tuner and other such utilities

Block based pattern sequencer ornthe matrix editor.

Pattern editor with fast scrolling sideways and vertical and snapping to screen estate for high res edits via the popup keyboard and finger editing support as well.

Seems crazy right now but each of these can be done very well in theory.

Edited by encryptedmind, 07 April 2018 - 18:13.

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#8 lettuce

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Posted 07 April 2018 - 18:54

Keyboard entry is the fastest, but both milkytracker ( on PDA with D-Pad and stylus ) and sunvox ( on tablet using fingers ) are quite fast to use without a keyboard. All the keys you need are onscreen. Once you spend some time with them and get used to the layout of the menus and the onscreen keys its fast enough. I will admit, sunvox needs a larger screen than a phone screen for optimal useage ( at least an 8" tablet, but if trackskip forward/backward buttons were added smaller screen sizes would be fine ). I do think the speed of recording with a midi keyboard is unbeatable though.

 

They both have the advantage of not being bound to a computer desk with a hunchback.

You can lean back in a nice chair or work on a song outside in the park or whilst travelling.

I disagree a little bit that trackers must be keyboard entry only ( although keyboard entry is the fastest ).

Android latency is fucked up and so is iOS file system and file transfer ( for these reasons, maybe the real future of touchscreen controlled music software is windows 10...I really want windows 10 cubasis ).

 

People were hating on the GamePad control systems as well but they are also quite fast, fast enough.

 

The controls on LittleGameParkTracker are really nice to use...comfortable to hold, portable, dont need a desk, can lean back and chill.

Its a shame the software was never really finished properly ( render to .wav and settings options should have been in an options/settings screen within the software itself rather than spending time fucking around with config.xml).

 

Although its not a tracker, the form factor of yamaha qy100 is best for portable ( it has velocity sensitive midi keys along the bottom ), but the sounds it produces are quite cheesey unfortunately.

Nanoloop and G-stomper also have nice layout for small phone screens (also not trackers ).

 

Mainly thumb controlled systems are the nicest ( two handed grip, no tired one arm from holding up a tablet if you are outside without a table, which is the whole point of something being portable ).

 

 

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Edited by lettuce, 07 April 2018 - 19:42.


#9 encryptedmind

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Posted 07 April 2018 - 20:16

Great examples of form factor in various portable products and how trackers while being unique can be designed to work on other more portable devices. I love computers but these days having a phone or tablet makes music making so much more handheld and is no doubt a big factor in deciding convenience and comfort over bulk power at all times. Just a few samples and good synth patches can be used to produce and compose entire tracks, with the current slew and deluge of vst plugins and sample packs I doubt if anyone is really short of sound choices these days, in fact managing so much of sounds itself has become a tedium of sorts..instead why don't we musicians just go back to what we are supposed to do and actually make music and less fiddling around with presets and sound browsing most times. One can even use the vst plugin desktop projects and just move the rendered sounds around via network file sharing apps and hence the convenience of Android over iOS regarding file sharing. Just swap an SD card or copy entire folders from the cloud..so much options it's a little pain to think that we still need to open and boot up a computer which has 20 other softwares doing their thing just to make music which must be immediate...portability is a big selling point. No wonder the current trend going all hardware or 'no laptop'. Laptops can be distracting or creativity killers too which is both ironical and surprising since so much can be done on a computer nonetheless. This is one area where phones and tablets can shine becos of their immediacy and being always ON and being low powered devices without the need of a charging brick and can be kept in the pocket too.

In another survival oriented situation, a phone or tablet can run off a power bank and one can still have access to internet, read books, send and receive email, watch YouTube and make music via apps, edit pictures and much of the convenient work or day to day utility based activities and even creative work too without the immediate need for more power. A laptop or desktop will need a much larger battery source to power it on the way a phone can be and that is another inconvenience for the long term. Imagine getting lost in a jungle or a long road while still having a full power bank and a phone with all necessary apps, no doubt it's going to be more useful than a laptop anyday in such situations especially if calls can be made as well. I am thinking on all points..a phone is a computer too, it's a computer that makes calls via a software app and a hardware component too, but the design is that of a computer.


Love the Milkytracker screenshot on tablet. Is that a Casio tablet? I will get one just like yours then..The DPad is a generic controller I suppose so which model are you using specifically? I already have MilkyTracker but on phone it's UI is very hard on the eyes more than anything...little sluggish too. But since it's the only one it's worth using even if to export files later on to other apps.

Edited by encryptedmind, 07 April 2018 - 20:21.

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#10 encryptedmind

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Posted 07 April 2018 - 21:07

Reading the Satobox Japanese manual and it's a good feeling to have about how well designed Renoise is and it's got a plethora of features actually. Asking to mobilise all the features to an app is like asking for a Protools Android app. So while the desktop versions stand perfectly on their own ('standalone'), some of the aspects can be migrated to the app ecosystem including basic native XRNS read and write, audio management and slicing, infact it can also have accessory features to aid in Renoise project management or asset creation. For instance samples and loops can be recorded and edited right in the ancillary Renoise app and can be saved as an XRNS or XRNI file to be opened right in Renoise with instrument number and slice markers intact. That kind of thing to start with. Just simple features to start with an app and then it can grow from there. If it can make the transition slowly but surely that works too in concept.

Another thing to consider is the screen and keyboard paradigm which while is totally relevant can be superseded in future with other interfaces too. PC sales have been steadily declining to mobile devices but that is not immediately relevent to true tracker users. However it's also possible that this paradigm can be extended in time?

Edited by encryptedmind, 07 April 2018 - 21:08.

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#11 Rpnz

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Posted 07 April 2018 - 21:51

won't happen.
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#12 encryptedmind

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Posted 07 April 2018 - 22:23

You mean won't happen by the Dev team by their own admission too. Does not mean that the idea of a tracker designed specifically for mobile devices Renoise or not wont be taken up as a couple of store apps are already in place...just need a better paradigm and a designer that has an eye for this without making it a one track app that does only tracking. Other production methods are well proven and roping those paradigms side by side is the only way I can imagine anyone using tracking on a mobile device.

Thinking about hardware oriented lockdowns, if so then how come we have virtual piano, virtual violin and virtual drums, even virtual computer keyboards, wireless palm top keyboards, Bluetooth keyboard and so on but still the paradigm of tracking even as a side feature does not seem feasible? It's not been done well is one reason and secondly the user base is still niche. Everyone has a phone if not a computer or laptop these days, so passing up on this means a lost opportunity, just like an empty Amazon store.

Also it's a relatively simpler project. Think of it as making tracking mobile, a simple 4 channel Protracker clone would work too if it fits well with the paradigm of touchscreen interfacing.

Milky Tracker and SunVox are already accepted as tracker apps even if their interfaces are somewhat rough, imagine a far better designed app that ADDS more to the tracker paradigm while still making the transition to the mobile ecosystem.

What we use as shortcuts on a keyboard becos we cannot interface with our monitor directly can now be augmented or replaced with touch screen. Simple example is Wave Editor in Renoise, which can be far more intuitive if done like MPC Live on Android or iOS with pinch zoom and finger press markers and Slice drag and drop, finger select and so on....why do you need keyboard shortcuts for this as the ONlY method.? You don't. And likewise for the mixer tab, it can all be done by finger fader movements and effects Macros too. That leaves us with pattern editor improvements and special UI design to accommodate fast note entry. End of the day it's not even close to rocket science, just good amount of prototype building and diligent research into better interface usage.

At this time and age we have a plethora of high resolution and realistic sampled acoustic guitars and and modelled fret simulations nd automatic voicings based on player midi interaction and we can't sort out simple note entry issues based on an older paradigm? I think we need to think bigger than that...it almost seems as if everyone else has moved ahead in this game including many nobody apps
...

Finally suppose Apple somehow got interested in this and develops a custom tracking app with their world class design team, I am sure that they will go though tight QA and prototyping to realise a super intuitive interface that does tracking as well as other complimentary stuff too. Surely market demand can't be the only reason why thing happen or don't, becos by that measure even Renoise or the 40 other trackers before it would not be here today..


Edit: on the note of fiddly stuff, Notion has had an outstanding notation app for iOS for years now with good design and stability taking form after Presonus took over. One night think that converting notation which can be very shortcut friendly to a touchscreen app would be very cumbersome but it's actually one of the best notation apps ever. I have had it for years and it's a beauty to compose I'm and use it. As I said, Renoose or a feature clone thereof can be done but it requires that vision from its potential app contributors too...just blindly chasing a market or blindly telling that it's infeasible does it do justice to both its market potential and the numerous users who could potentially discover tracking and make it their own in the mobile ecosystem to start with.

If done well then giving musicians a well designed and stable music production app that also incorporates the tracking paradigm is a gift to the community. It should however be able to do whatever it does well and not be some half arsed attempt.

Edited by encryptedmind, 07 April 2018 - 22:47.

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#13 lettuce

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Posted 08 April 2018 - 18:18

Unfortunately the android port of milkytracker does not work well.

Its because capacitive touchscreens ( tablets, phones ) are designed for chubby paddle finger usage,

rather than the pinpoint accuracy of stylus usage which may be found on resistive touchscreen devices ( PDAs ).

 

Best to use a PDA for milkytracker.

 

The PDA pictured is a casio PDA but ideally for Milkytracker you want the fastest processor and the most RAM possible in a PDA.

I recommend HP iPaq214 Enterprise (  624 MHz,  128 MB SDRAM ).

 

This is the highest spec PDA I could find.

If anyone knows of one with a higher spec please let me know.

 

Using Milkytracker on a PDA is nice for the use of single cycle waveforms, arpeggiations, custom amplitude LFOs.

It only has pitch, panning and volume effects so you will be missing filter and reverb and stuff.

I will say this, if you get creative with it, it is a much better option than the LSDJ gameboy shit...( true BPM, renders to .wav, uses SD cards, sounds better, better design, longer battery life, no fucking around with gameboy arduino and nonsense like that ).

It is quite similar to LittleGameParkTracker, but with more tracks available and a better interface ( sample editor, file browser, envelopes etc.).

However it lacks some of the features of LittleGameParkTracker like the tables, filter cutoff + resonance and wavescanning effect commands.

 

It saves .XMs ( and renders to .wav ) so you can load things up in renoise for further structuring and refining (  adding effects and automation, or other instruments ).

 

Its fasttracker 2, so you know how it goes...Generate new waveforms in the sample editor. Generate them at 64 or 128 samples in length, use multiple instruments for the same waveform with different envelopes or other settings applied. You can hand-draw little notches in different places in the waveforms for a timbre change kind of effect ( when switching instruments, or when switching between different samples assigned to different note ranges within one instrument ). You can create the same kind of tracker grooves as in sunvox and renoise with delay commands.

 

I wouldnt bother using it for breakbeat or samples other than single cycle or hand drawn...you could but, you wouldnt be able to make it sound good enough by modern standards ( unless you were using pre-processed single hit drum samples ). Maybe some bass samples and cheesey .xi instruments ( flutes in particular ) .

 

Still, its basic in a way, but I enjoy it ( basic effects, advanced sequencer ).

 

The portability coupled with comfort of use ( the form factor, the D-Pad + Stylus entry ) are the things that makes it so nice.

 

Milkytracker 4eva!

 

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MilkyTracker-2_programView.png


Edited by lettuce, 08 April 2018 - 19:12.


#14 encryptedmind

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 11:07

It's one of things I value this forum for a lot and that includes the individuals personal experiences with their gear setup and music. When @Renoised was still here (before he started making stupid threats
via PM to others, talking as a concerned friend here btw) I got to know much about QY700 and the cassette tape fan forums which I never delved into much till I found it. I would never have guessed that you could use an HP PDA for tracking (well could haved sussed for sure, just not expected).

Thanks for the screenshots and your description of things that stood out for you.

Regarding the Android app idea, well let's just all wait for AI to develop its own software (as Google already invented and is perfecting it) so that it can write the app for all of us. (Actually programs that compile their own code already existed for as long as computer software has, but writing its own software is truly AI territory, makes software engineers an endangered species in future). Honestly speaking, after all through logic and engineering implementation has been well thought out and all the kinks ironed out, when such frameworks become common place we as musicians can get back to less of tinkering and more of music making and music study...content creation will be second hand expertise by then..so personal development and consciousness and body mind soul oriented living would be one of the better options to focus on than the current dead end jobs situation and economic fallacies going around.

Btw Vishen Lakhiani who is the founder of Mindvalley which is a wellness company founded in 2003, is very excited about his Mindvalley University project and is doing pretty good marketing work in such topics like Bio Hacking and good diet and exercise and so on. He also paraphrases Ray Kurzweil on his London Real interview that by 2029 everyone will have the equivalent of Iron Man's Jarvis on their smartphone.. in the next ten years when that shift happens, what are humans supposed to do with themselves once their so called 'life defining roles' like Engineer, lawyer and doctor get more and more marginalized in favour or precise AI counterparts...I suppose humans can get back to being human and stop playing this half arsed game of 'being adults' and basically screwing up the entire world for the next generations. I like this motto and I think it's one of the few companies that actually have an earth lover rather than a profit lover at its core. Check them out, some stuff might seem corny but overall I like their presentation and motto. Also nothing in this world is exact science, including science itself..so don't immediately go calling such businesses as pseudo science, like seriously how can conciously made and cross educated and constantly updated methods to improve ones living system be a pseudo science if it does the job...as if the average scientist has a better answer for everything relevant. They don't.

It's like telling Renoise is not a DAW probably because it does not do horizontal audio tracks like Logic Pro 8. Majority is like this...however having this mentality for software still won't kill you because you still have a choice, just install what you feel like works for you, but doing such things to your body most definitely will kill it faster than you think.

Observation: The development team for Renoise and the demoscene has a lot in parallel with the academic scene, say for instance CSound, started around 1970s in Bell Labs, demoscene tools and the scene around 1984 ish.. both have a long legacy of being highly active yet alternative architectures for making music. Even Csound was developed over various iterations from earlier now defunkt software like MUSIC I and MUSIC 5 much like how we have Renoise from the original Soundtracker I and Protracker and Noisetrekker. Both have modern and online presence and both have active forums and contributors. Both projects have some key admin level developers and project specific tool experts and programmers. Both also have a relatively niche community, however one is successfully launched as a commercial software (Renoise) the other is not(Csound). However Csound has itself embedded into various audio and video softwares and plugins both free and for fee as an API and modular framework like Supercollider or Max Msp. Their roles are true to their original heritage though, and both parties have stood firm and true to their original legacy and design and paradigm. And finally both have a future and both are resilient. Even the core demographics of both are rather unique, being hackers, audio programmers, coders and techno rebels and on the other hand academia oriented software developers and coders who also compose music. Both have this similarity in roles and both parties have music making their end priority or goal.

I just want to see things move even further from here..well time will tell.

Edit: @Renoised, you are missed out here. Don't stay in hate. Love:)

Edited by encryptedmind, 11 April 2018 - 18:29.

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#15 gentleclockdivider

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 14:49

get a nintendo ds +nitrotracker 


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#16 lettuce

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Posted 10 April 2018 - 15:18

I heard nitrotrackers effect commands were not working a while back.

There is also vividtracker for iphone ( protracker clone ).

Also sinusoid for iphone ( a preset based tracker without effect commands ).

 

I think milkytracker PDA is still the most complete portable handheld tracker option other than sunvox.

 

Sunvox optimal usage is with a tablet being placed on a table though.

Sunvox is catching up to renoise fast and already ahead in some ways but not others.

I'd like to see some optimization for the smaller screen sizes ( track skip buttons etc. )

 

For comfort of handheld, portable use without a table LittleGameParkTracker is the winner, closely followed by milkytracker PDA version.

 

The portablility problem with tablets and phones is that you have to hold the device up with one hand and use the software with the other hand. Two handed grip is so much nicer ( although one hand hold and use designs like nanoloop iphone make sense too. It can all be controlled with one thumb ). G-stomper is quite nice for portability comfort but lots of menu diving.

 

If anyone understands how to code I think the LittleGameParkTracker is open source...its around 96% finished, just needs a few things.

It may have been abandonned because of messy code ( not enough comments or something ) so maybe its a total headfuck.

 

Also Adlib tracker 2 is open source i think, could be made to work with gamepad or stylus.

But it has the shitty pre-BPM timing...not to say that it is not in time, just that its not BPM but rather Hertz.

 

Whatever happens I'm in need of more portable trackers.

I'm thinking two handed grip, two thumb control is the way to go if the device is touchscreen only but those gamepad controls are nice with the shoulder buttons and button combos too. It will probably never happen...just more and more shitty step sequencers. Most of them dont even have per step parameter control. Nanoloop developer needs to hurry up and make the iphone and android phone versions more feature rich...The original gameboy advance versions had a really nice feature set and great sound ( unfortunately non-BPM timing ) but the iphone and android version is limited to only 8 patterns per channel for no good reason.

 

maxresdefault.jpg

nano1.jpg

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Edited by lettuce, 10 April 2018 - 15:51.

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