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Renoise recently also appears in Spanish forums. And in your country?

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#1 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 18:16

I'm a little surprised to see some Renoise users in Spanish speak in Spanish forums about Renoise. In Spain there are practically no forums about Renoise. There is hardly any information in Spanish about Renoise. However, it seems that in recent months more users are "trying to use" Renoise, and even recommend it.

 

https://www.hispason...o-trabajo/43736

 

Es curioso qué todavía no haya visto por algunos medios otro secuenciador qué está pegando muy fuerte, sigue el estilo del antiguo soundtracker qué usaba en un 486 de la época. Para mí otro secuenciador muy divertido de usar. Saludos.


https://www.renoise....roducts/renoise

 

hispasonic.com  is a very famous website and forums in Spain dedicated to musical composition. However, there is no forum dedicated to Renoise, yes for other popular DAWs. With the recent departure of FL Studio v20 and Studio One v4, there are still Spaniards who recommend Renoise! My surprise to see this link thread ...

 
How does Renoise circulate in their countries? Is he dead or is he famous enough? The other day I saw another user of Renoise known here, made videotutorials in Spanish. I do not think it's related, but I see a rebound of users in Spanish recently ...
 
With all the new developments of the rest of DAW, every time I see Renoise as something more obsolete or outdated. I have the feeling that the rest of the world is still advanced and Renoise is still too stagnant. I'm envious that other composer communities have real support for their commander software, and Renoise does not.
 
What you think?

Edited by Raul (ulneiz), 24 May 2018 - 19:13.

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#2 Type-A

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 18:45

i think that i need to make a beatport#1 and share the renoise project file :w00t: :w00t: :w00t:

 

 

Pd: as if i could  :unsure:  ^_^

 

 

 

i understand that in my country because of limited access to internet and information in general  :(

producers dont know to much about the existence of Renoise 

 

i didnt knew trackers were a thing since i read the Venetian Snares article on wikipedia ...!!!


Edited by Type-A, 28 May 2018 - 15:30.

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#3 joule

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 18:52

From what I've seen Renoise has gained a bit of a 'nerd' status, in a positive way, with some hype going on on twitter for example. Many people seem to think 'knowing how to use Renoise' is about as cool (but difficult) as knowing music theory :P The global branding of Renoise is very positive in that regard, especially compared to how people here complain about this and that feature lacking. Of course, this also implies that there is a lot of additional potential for Renoise if it would seriously take on the challenge of becoming a full fledged DAW (but with a tracker interface).

 

The swedish music forum I'm on are well aware of Renoise. Even if it's not mentioned every week or month, It's still a force that keeps gaining interest :)


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#4 lettuce

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 19:18

Probably there are fewer users of renoise in countries in which english is spoken as a second language simply because the manual is only available in english.

If someone for whom english is not their first langage has not used a tracker before, or is not aware of the progression of trackers through time and tracker traditions ( such as the use of hex, note offs being used a bit differently etc. ) it would be an extremely difficult task to get a thorough understanding of everything in the manual. Translating the manual into japanese or chinese, for example, would be an extremely hardcore and arduous, painful task to complete.

I imagine for the spanish language ( and other european languages ), google translate would work reasonably well though. You could probably get the gist of what is written there.

 

 

With all the new developments of the rest of DAWs, every time I see Renoise as something more obsolete or outdated. I get the feeling that the rest of the world is still advanced and Renoise is still too stagnant. I'm envious that other composer communities have real support for their commander software, and Renoise does not.

 
What you think?

 

 

 

Personally, I think renoise is way ahead of its time in comparison to other DAWs in terms of its sequencing capabilities. For example, other DAWs can not do ALL the tuplet types, neither can they offer the same flexibility in their arpeggiators as renoise has in its phrases. 

 

Also the sampler is better than most other DAWs in that it can do separate effects chains and modulation per sample and per key.

I think that is an exciting and modern feature.

 

Most people probably simply cannot accept that a tracker can be a modern tracker.

In their understanding trackers are old software.

 

On the other hand, I can see that renoise could be improved with a few extra things like audiotracks, some tweaks to the automation lanes, native synths and features geared towards live usage like clip launching with the cells in the pattern matrix. Maybe pitch shift and time stretch and wavescanning ( shifting of loop start and end points as achenar suggested ).

 

I would be happy with only a few small things being ironed out like fixing the behaviour of the vibrato, tremelo, autopan commands and including lines and ticks ( as well as beats and milliseceonds ) in sampler modulation LFOs and custom envelopes.


Edited by lettuce, 24 May 2018 - 19:19.


#5 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 19:19

From what I've seen Renoise has gained a bit of a 'nerd' status, in a positive way, with some hype going on on twitter for example. Many people seem to think 'knowing how to use Renoise' is about as cool (but difficult) as knowing music theory :P

...

 

I hope they do not try to build tools with LUA!  ^_^

 

You have to be very happy with the continuity of S1. It seems that they are doing a good job. Knowing that there is a "guaranteed" support to improve the software makes you more happy to use this DAW.


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#6 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 24 May 2018 - 19:44

...

I imagine for the spanish language ( and other european languages ), google translate would work reasonably well though. You could probably get the gist of what is written there.

...

 

So is. With the Google translator from the Chrome browser, the Spanish translation is perfectly understandable. At least, the language regarding the reading of the manual is not an excuse. It is true that Renoise is only in English. But what I find very strange is that the Spanish language community is the second in the world, behind the Mandarin. There are many potential users.

 

I get the feeling that Renoise is obsolete in usability and graphic features. It has some notable failures that other DAWs have solved, such as the general view of the song, where the matrix editor is not enough (maybe in 4k or higher this would change). The automation editor is a beta!

 

Additionally, I do not know what's happening with Windows 10 + VSTi + Renoise (and possibly its API). The graphic performance is not as expected, and even using tools with OSC, the typical drop-down lists of Windows from the VSTi windows also block the audio. We need a thorough review of all these details, which have a lot to do with the Renoise GUI.
 
Another issue is the high resolution. The rest of known DAWs (FL Studio, Ableton 10, or S1) are far ahead with the GUI theme for high resolutions (4K-5K until 7K-8K looking at the future).
 
IMO, Renoise is very good for using samples and native instruments, but it fails a lot with the use of VSTi's (and is not the fault of VSTi). Now, with the completion of VST 2.0 support to focus on VST 3, Renoise will also have to be updated. Renoise is fine with the samples. It would be nice to optimize for the use of the VSTi's. It does not even have MIDI input to change the preset. The VST/VSTi are the present and the future!
 
If we had updates more often, there would be more users. That implies more licenses, more money...

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#7 lettuce

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 01:27

I see what you mean about 4K + higher resolutions and VST3.

I cant really afford the latest tower PC with high end monitor and stuff right now so I hadnt noticed those things.

 

You could look at it from another angle though, and say that one of the great things about renoise is that it so efficient that it doesnt require a super powerful computer to run it. Renoise will run on pretty much any laptop. Also the price of renoise is not 'breaking my balls'.

 

People have been asking for more updates quite frequently on the forums of late as more than a year has passed since 3.1.

I dont know any of the developers so I cant say for sure, but as this software was started around 2001, and there must have been epic amounts of work put into it by a small team for over a decade, I can imagine by now some of them had kids or wanted to take a break and enjoy life for a while, maybe go travelling or something. Perhaps thats the reason for not putting out updates as quickly as other software companies.

 

I really want development to continue and keep using renoise forever because its the best, so as long as it is not going to be stopped I dont mind people taking time over something high quality and unique. Even if the next update was over a year away its not that bad because the addition of phrases and sampler modulation and effects in 3.1 was such a massive and cool update already. So much to explore.

 

 

 

It does not even have MIDI input to change the preset. The VST/VSTi are the present and the future!

 

 

I heard that a midi controller must be able to send program change messages to be able to do this.

 

 

So is. With the Google translator from the Chrome browser, the Spanish translation is perfectly understandable. At least, the language regarding the reading of the manual is not an excuse. It is true that Renoise is only in English. But what I find very strange is that the Spanish language community is the second in the world, behind the Mandarin.

 

Google translate is fine for european languages but if you put chinese sentences into it to translate into english, or english sentences to translate into chinese, you get gibberish both ways. I think chinese and japanese languages have cool ways to describe stuff like 'lightning' being 'mountain power' or computer being 'mountain power intelligence', shit like that. It cant be translated literally. It requires human imagination to translate it properly.

 

Its like that old example about translating "the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak" into russian, then into spanish, then back into english. You get something bullshit like "The ghost has wishes, however the meat is tender".

 

Anyways, the renoise manual, with all its technical language, would be a bitch to translate into chinese. As you said, same with spanish speakers, so many potential customers. But more money doesn't always necessarily mean better developers and better outcome for the software. Its like, a controlled fire with slow burning charcoal is needed to smelt metal for a fine sword...pouring petrol all over the fire will speed everything up uncontrollably.


Edited by lettuce, 25 May 2018 - 01:47.


#8 random

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 07:20

Probably there are fewer users of renoise in countries in which english is spoken as a second language simply because the manual is only available in english.

 
my english is bad (you can read it here :badteeth: )

nevertheless, i think the manual is very clear, but there are also still youtube and a helpful forum
without english, nothing works these days, at least not on the computer

i think there are trends and developments in the music industry.
vst, apple's ipad, affordable hardware like korg volcas, now modular
for renoise was probably the best time when netbooks were new

have not read anything bad about renoise but there is still the idea that it is not more as an oldschool tracker like octamed etc with vst:  that's  90's, that's totally gone
It is also not so easy to see what is under the hood.
honestly, i own a linzens since it came out, I've been using it only for half a year ..(3.0 was a big step, very good)

 

i think Renoise has a future (is numerology or geist better?) if it continues to open (but at the core a tracker remains)
midi, sysex, vst, more samplefile imports and exports
The approaches are already there. 


Edited by random, 25 May 2018 - 07:33.


#9 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 15:18

...

I heard that a midi controller must be able to send program change messages to be able to do this.

...

 

Apparently, there is a distinction between "preset" and "program", which are not the same. I think all this is a little confusing in Renoise...

 

far as I know, In Renoise there are 2 ways to deal with this:

 

A- Change the "preset" from the plugin editor: where it says "Program", it would actually change the preset. It is only possible to change them with the mouse. The API has this that serves to change it, and with 2 buttons you can use MIDI Input in a tool (like the PhraseTouch):

renoise.song().instruments[].plugin_properties.plugin_device.active_preset, _observable
  -> [number, 0 when none is active or available]

B- Change the preset? (or program???) from the track, through the Meta "*Instr. MIDI Control": 

  1. Select the instrument.
  2. Select "Prg" and enable it (ON).
  3. The control is a limited slider with a range of 0 to 127 (128 values). Some VSTi have more than 128 presets.

But some VSTi do not offer access to preset change control. Therefore, the message "No programs available" appears in method A. If this is the case, some VSTi will not work with method B. But some, like Spire, keeps showing "No programs available", but it is controllable from method B, with Meta "*Instr. MIDI Control".

 

All this is a bit messy to control. I believe that the best solution is to use two buttons, raise and lower, compatible with MIDI Input, or, at least, that are configurable from the Renoise API. Everything would be fine to be revised, to facilitate control. As I understand it, some VSTi require a little time to load the new preset, since it involves changing many of its parameters.

 
...
 
Renoise has so many "hidden" things that are worth studying. This is an example of various that many users do not know and consider Renoise as something minor, when it is the opposite.

 

This does not mean that it can not be improved. There are many things that could be improved, and it would still be considered as a secluded or second-row DAW, simply because it is a tracker. When someone comments something about Renoise in one of these forums, the word "tracker" immediately appears, and it is observed as something strange or outdated. But I believe that we should not confuse this with reality. I have always considered that a program becomes obsolete if the hardware is more advanced. This is a chain. When the hardware advances, the software of the operating systems accompanies it. This means that compatible programs, such as DAWs, need to be updated.

 

Even though Renoise has not been updated for a long time, it's funny that there seem to be more interested users lately... In these forums I have also noticed new people who have just registered, more than a long time ago. This is also good news, despite the null support (updates). I hope more Spanish-speaking users are interested. Renoise has many things under the hood...


Edited by Raul (ulneiz), 25 May 2018 - 15:20.

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#10 lettuce

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 20:42

i think there are trends and developments in the music industry.

 

vst, apple's ipad, affordable hardware like korg volcas, now modular
for renoise was probably the best time when netbooks were new

 

The way I see it, most of those trends are popular because of hype and advertising but renoise is solid, stable and functional and doesn't need all the hype.

Enthusiasm about VST I can fully understand but iPad has a wack file system, expensive peripherals etc, all hype, status symbols and fashion. Korg volcas look like fun, but are they really any better than free VSTi? More tactile I suppose, but less powerful. As for modular, I don't want to rain on anyones parade or add some moody comment to peoples funtime but I'm just saying, to me it seems like its more about showing off than functionality. Why is it so cool to have to fuck around with loads of patch cables every time you want to change to another synthesizer voice, or spend ridiculous money on a shitty 16 step sequencer 'module'? I can understand wanting to use a virtual modular in the form of a vsti because it does give people a better understanding of signal routing and sound design, but I'm not really impressed when people bring out those eurorack in a suitcase. I dont really think they sound any better than high quality VST, or there is only a barely noticeable difference. I wouldn't want to carry that around everywhere either. Shit is heavy.

 

For me, renoise and sunvox with a few vst on a windows touch screen laptop is more than enough. It doesnt even need to be a particularly powerful laptop. Its like you said, renoise will run fine for songs made with only short samples on a 2010 netbook ( from what I've heard ), although the netbooks dont have the horsepower to run vst that much...I'd imagine they can start to slow down with more complicted effects chains as well. You probably have to keep it simple if you are running renoise on a netbook. They only have intel atom processors and 2GB RAM. But the form factor is nice and portable. Plus they are only like 50 US dollars. I'm a fan of milkytracker on PDA and G-stomper on android for the portability ( but dont consider them as essential as renoise and sunvox ).

I like to keep software and equipment cheaper, but still better than more expensive options. I think renoise with a cheaper laptop really achieves that balance.

 

Renoise has so many "hidden" things that are worth studying. This is an example of various that many users do not know and consider Renoise as something minor, when it is the opposite.

 

I've seen a few people in the past few years, who have been to a few of those 'maker fairs'. They get all hyped that they can put together some PCB kit and soon after they think they can write their own tracker. It because it looks on the surface, just like text arranged in a certain way. But in my opinon, to write a decent tracker like renoise is a 20 year job for more than one person even if they already have good knoledge about programming C. What is renoise written in C++? I at least understand that I am now too old to begin learning C to program software, so I will never start learning it which frees up time.

Even milkytracker took many years, and they had fasttracker 2 to look at first. They did a great job, simple as it is..I still use it on the PDA.

 


Edited by lettuce, 25 May 2018 - 21:09.


#11 random

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Posted 25 May 2018 - 22:49

@lettuce

renoise is (for me) "only" a unique tool and unfortunately a bit too closed
not only renoise, just about everything has to strengthen and weaken
and these are also personal preferences and trends / hypes
maybe there are resources, sales given away

better and worse is subjective in the reason it is a waste of time to talk about apples and pears


Edited by random, 25 May 2018 - 23:29.


#12 lettuce

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Posted 26 May 2018 - 02:54

Its true that a lot of peoples feelings about whether a piece of software is better or worse than another can be largely based on subjective experience and preference. I didnt mean to sound like a dick about modulars and the korg volca series. My preference is based on portability and price as well as functionality. I'll admit I'm a little biased in favour of trackers. I just like them more than pianoroll sequencing software.

They are cheaper ( than other DAWs ), better sequencing capabilities, running well on cheaper computers if you dont max everything out or use huge vsts. I'm a big fan of milkytracker, sunvox and renoise...probably the three best trackers around. I came to trackers from MPC1000 ( which has a somewaht tracker like sequencer inside ). I remembered impulse tracker ( from using it without knowing what the fuck I was doing in 1996 ) after the MPC1000 broke, searched trackers and found Skale tracker. I was suprised it is basically better than MPC1000 but free, after that milkytracker on PDA. I was pleasantly surprised, cheaper and better than other portable sampler sequencers. Finally I bought renoise. The effects and everything about it much higher quality. After that sunvox..portable, modular. With nice trackers its always pleasant surprise, with other things its always painful price and disappointing features.

 

How to find renoise to be a bit closed? No native synths or not enough live usage features, no audiotracks? The audiotracks and live usage features are something I want as well if I stop to think about it a little. But also most of the time dont need.


Edited by lettuce, 26 May 2018 - 03:06.


#13 4Tey

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Posted 26 May 2018 - 06:56

 

This does not mean that it can not be improved. There are many things that could be improved, and it would still be considered as a secluded or second-row DAW, simply because it is a tracker. When someone comments something about Renoise in one of these forums, the word "tracker" immediately appears, and it is observed as something strange or outdated. But I believe that we should not confuse this with reality. I have always considered that a program becomes obsolete if the hardware is more advanced. This is a chain. When the hardware advances, the software of the operating systems accompanies it. This means that compatible programs, such as DAWs, need to be updated.

 

Even though Renoise has not been updated for a long time

Here's another thought.  If I write a digital computer program that asks the user to input two numbers and the program prints the sum of those numbers, something like...

Input number 1? 2
Input number 2? 5
The sum of the numbers is: 7

....and I put that program out on the internet complete with a forum, you can bet someone, somewhere, would say:  You couldn't just make it input 3 numbers could you?  I need to sum 3 numbers.  So I modify the program to ask for 3 numbers.  You can bet someone, somewhere, would say:  You couldn't make it sum 6 numbers could you, be better/convenient for me if it sums 6 numbers.  So I modify the program so it asks the user beforehand the amount of numbers to sum...

How many numbers? 5
Input number 1? 2
Input number 2? 3
Input number 3? 4
Input number 4? 7
Input number 5? 12
The sum of the numbers is: 28

You can bet someone, somewhere will complain that the program is now asking for the amount of numbers at the start where that user just wants to sum 2 numbers, hassle to keep entering this at the start.  Later someone, somewhere will say:  You couldn't just make it find the product of the numbers?  Better still could you turn it into a small calculator with add,subtract,multiply and divide?  And so on and so forth.  If I did all of this (and even more), later on it would have a multitude of options and 'bloat', someone, somewhere would start to say: hey, this program a bit complicated and bloated isn't it?  Also I think there is a bug because when I enter.....   In other words you can't win.  No version of Renoise now or in the future wins.  No software wins, because it's a fixed digitally stored logic mathematical computer program.  If I add 'features' to my program (and if I give options to switch these options on/off), I have to add code/data to the program, therefore, the program becomes bigger and more complicated at the source level, therefore the program can become more difficult to debug and to keep stable.

 

A long time ago, I drew the conclusion that the best program you will ever use on any computer is the program that you write yourself (preferably completely from scratch, using as few a libraries or third party source as possible).  Having to rely on other people to code is not so good.



#14 random

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Posted 26 May 2018 - 19:45

@lettuce

Renoise is a fine thing in itself
but a bit buttoned when it should go back out (other programs, hardware)
for example, Sysex and midiexport is not integrated (only incomplete as tool)

There are other programs like ReCycle for Slice and Midiexport
CTRL for SYSEX
In comparison to Renoise cumbersome and especially without sequencer

i'm a little biased too, would like that
but can also well imagine that Renoise could get a boost.
step sequencers (like Renoise) are hip, hardware is getting cheaper
for example, behringer will soon release an 808 clone, I do not need it, but it will probably sell well


Edited by random, 26 May 2018 - 19:45.


#15 lettuce

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Posted 26 May 2018 - 20:55

I dont use any hardware so I didnt really check about midi out features too much.

I should explore more about those things but I'm broke so keeping things as cheap as possible.

Also I want to keep things portable so maximum a laptop with audio interface ( audio interface will have to wait because of brokeness ).

I like that it is not bloated, every feature very well thought out.

 

I guess renoise popularity in any country where english is not the first language all depends on people doing tutorials in those languages and succsessfully translating the manual into those languages.



#16 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 28 May 2018 - 12:00

...

 

I guess renoise popularity in any country where english is not the first language all depends on people doing tutorials in those languages and succsessfully translating the manual into those languages.

 

I suppose the fact that Renoise is only in English, I mean the program, also influences a lot. No matter how elaborate the manual is made, or translated into Spanish or another necessary language, many characteristics will not be explained. You can find them from the tooltips of each control in Renoise. There are some explanations there, but all in English.

 
For example, if you had the opportunity to see Studio One, it is completely available in Spanish. When you use all the controls, it is very clear to what they refer or what they do, because the program speaks to you in your language.
 
I myself have realized in my own tools. They are all in English for consistency, but, for example, PhraseTouch could be entirely translated into Spanish, and for me it would be easier to manage, simply because of the language.
 
Anyway, language is one of many things to consider. Other DAWs like FLStudio (less the pirated versions), are only in English, and have many clients, probably because of their good support and licensing policy.
 
I also get the feeling that the "cheap" price of Renoise underestimates it. People who do not know the program, may think that, if it is cheap, it is bad. And this is clearly an exception. I myself have seen VSTi's with a price above € 100 and it do not have the work of this DAW or much less. But they sell for more than € 100, and they are only a VSTi's (instruments).
 
The "cheap" price can give a false impression of "poor product" or "little worked". If it's cheap, it will not be very good...
 
Even the official website of the product influences. When you enter such a page, which takes a long time without new content, people in general flee to another site, because it seems that there is no one behind with whom to speak if necessary.
 
Interesting the video to learn C++ ^_^. LUA uses C++ as a base. Many of us will have the same problem. We do not have enough time for everything, and this has to like you, otherwise you go crazy :smashed:.

:excl: Development of my tools: SamRenderPhraseTouch  |  GT16-Colors (old)

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 26 September 2017):

Spoiler

#17 danoise

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Posted 28 May 2018 - 13:21

Topic reminds me a bit of this lovely ol' thread I started 10 years ago:

http://forum.renoise...1-big-in-japan/


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#18 lettuce

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Posted 28 May 2018 - 18:36

Reading through the 'renoise - big in japan?' thread I see that hseiken ( a name I remember from pspseq ) mentioned that there is a craze for writing tunes in MML ( music markup language ). I really cant understand why anyone would want to put themselves through that kind of pain. As an MML musician ( like early nintendo soundtrack musicians ) I imagine you must start with a piano score and 'translate' it into MML from there. There is not much room for experimentation. Its almost like writing music in QBasic or something.

 

Hseiken reminds me of PSPSeq, which was half way to being an awesome portable compsition tool ( ran on PSP ).

Only thing bad about it was that the analogue stick was used to increase / decrease values and it was really innacurate ( values increasing / decreasing too quickly ). Its a shame, should go back to it and put the finishing touches to the software. It had the potential to be awesome.


Edited by lettuce, 28 May 2018 - 18:40.


#19 danoise

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Posted 28 May 2018 - 19:35

Its almost like writing music in QBasic or something.


Even more crazy, awesome (and still Japanese):


Sorry for offtopic  :unsure:


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#20 lettuce

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Posted 29 May 2018 - 18:03

During the time that war was outlawed and japan was pacifist so many beautiful, creative things came out of japan.

I feel sorry for the salarymen with their 100 hour work week.