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Unable to comfortably use Renoise


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#26 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 15:55

Well, I have already purchased my new 34" monitor, the one I have mentioned above, the Samsung SJ55W, (34", 3440x1440 px, 21:9, VA). The screen measures 82'5x36'7 cm, with a framework of 1'1cm. I use Windows 10. I'll just say that I do not recommend Renoise (unmodified) for this screen size or higher. I would only recommend Renoise for HD 1920x1080 screens, until Taktik upgrades to a high resolution version. The reason is the size of the fonts and also the size of the buttons, is too small. I do not recommend it to anyone.

 

However, for those who have monitors around 2K or WQHD, it is possible to increase the Renoise font by 2 points by modifying the XML files in the Fonts folder. (...\Renoise 3.1.1\Resources\Skin\Fonts). By adjusting these values with Renoise closed, you can play a bit with the size of the fonts without untying them from their boxes, but the buttons will still be very small.  This is a "hidden trick" that is halfway to being a solution. There is no choice but to wait for Taktik to launch a new version for high resolutions.

 

For me, acquiring a large format monitor is a very big effort, it involves changing the graphics card and the monitor, and both products together are worth a lot of money. This is unpleasant with most monitors, which do not have an LED refresh fast enough to show the movement of the pattern in the playback without looking blurry.

 

I have already tried 5 different monitors, IPS, VA... and they all have the same problem (I use a dark theme). What happens is that the LED is not able to recover the color when it is changed fast enough, generating a blurring effect in the movement of the parameters. This is really annoying.

 

I mention it for those people who want to buy a large monitor. It is not only the size of the sources, but also the speed of the LEDs of the monitors. This seems contrary to the idea that the problem may appear in games. In games, being larger images, that small blur is not appreciated. Only that blur appears when you move very small objects, or the letters of a line in Renoise when the moving pattern is playing, especially when the BPM and LPB are high.

 

For me, who also uses Renoise's Scriptint Terminal Editor, it has become a serious problem with this 34" monitor. I have to keep my old 24" HD monitor in order to use this editor. This is because it is not possible to modify the font size of the Scriptint Terminal Editor. Yes, I also use Notepad++, and fixed issue. But it is a real pity to have an integrated editing tool, and it can not be used because there is a lack of an option to increase the text font.

 

In summary, I DO NOT recommend 2K or higher for Renoise 3.1. There are too many eye problems, both for those who wear glasses and for those who do not wear glasses. Wait for Taktik to launch a new version for high resolutions or directly use another DAW...

 

Edit: I forgot another important issue. When using window tools (tools XRNX), if you modify the size of the fonts with the XML files, much of the format of the window will be deformed, because when increasing the fonts, they force the boxes to be larger. This is another problem that I suppose Taktik will have to deal with his new version, if he is working on that. I have no idea.


Edited by Raul (ulneiz), 18 November 2018 - 16:06.

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#27 Garf

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 01:48

Remember the Pattern editor font size in Preferences > GUI > Font size (I'm using big)

 

The display area of my 32" / 2560x1440 is two centimeters higher than your 34", there is definitely a fine line here and I wouldn't want my buttons to get any smaller.



#28 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 02:28

Remember the Pattern editor font size in Preferences > GUI > Font size (I'm using big)

 

Of course, yes! This configuration reads the file: ...\Renoise 3.1.1\Resources\Skin\Fonts\PatternConfig.xml:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<PatternFontSettings doc_version="0">
  <Small>
    <Size>12,12</Size>
    <FileName>Fonts/PatternFont.ttf</FileName>
    <AntiAlias>YES</AntiAlias>
  </Small>
  <Normal>
    <Size>14,14</Size>
    <FileName>Fonts/PatternFont.ttf</FileName>
    <AntiAlias>YES</AntiAlias>
  </Normal>
  <Big>
    <Size>15,15</Size>
    <FileName>Fonts/PatternFont.ttf</FileName>
    <AntiAlias>YES</AntiAlias>
  </Big>
  <Huge>
    <Size>16,16</Size>
    <FileName>Fonts/PatternFont.ttf</FileName>
    <AntiAlias>YES</AntiAlias>
  </Huge>
</PatternFontSettings>

I have modified this file too. I use "Huge" with the value of 16. But this only works for the pattern editor. By the way, I'm using the Redux fonts.

 

 

 

 

You can change the other XML file: ...\Renoise 3.1.1\Resources\Skin\Fonts\Config.xml:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<FontEngine doc_version="0">
  <Standard>
    <Size>12,12</Size>
    <FileName>Fonts/DejaVuSans.ttf</FileName>
    <AntiAlias>YES</AntiAlias>
  </Standard>
  <StandardBig>
    <Size>15,15</Size>
    <FileName>Fonts/DejaVuSans.ttf</FileName>
    <AntiAlias>YES</AntiAlias>
  </StandardBig>
  <Bold>
    <Size>12,12</Size>
    <FileName>Fonts/DejaVuSans-Bold.ttf</FileName>
    <AntiAlias>YES</AntiAlias>
  </Bold>
  <Italic>
    <Size>12,12</Size>
    <FileName>Fonts/DejaVuSans-Oblique.ttf</FileName>
    <AntiAlias>YES</AntiAlias>
  </Italic>
  <Monospaced>
    <Size>11,11</Size>
    <FileName>Fonts/DejaVuSansMono.ttf</FileName>
    <AntiAlias>YES</AntiAlias>
  </Monospaced>
</FontEngine>

This is the configuration that I use with my 34" screen (mainly increase up to 2 points in each value). The fonts look good, but in many parts of Renoise there are problems with the wide and height of the fonts: it happens that the text is cut because it is wider than the size of the box that contains it.

 

I am creating a clear theme to be able to read better the fonts in movement. With light colors the texts are "less blurred" in movement.

 

Despite all these tricks, I do not recommend Renoise for these screen sizes. We need a better graphic design.


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#29 joule

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Posted 19 November 2018 - 09:30

I tried a screenshot thru the waifu2x upscaler (machine learning algo) ;)

 

https://www.dropbox....unoise.png?dl=0


Edited by joule, 19 November 2018 - 09:35.


#30 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 20 November 2018 - 18:34

Curious! Here is another example using waifu2x. Above the original capture, below the capture converted to 2x with waifu2x. Here I have increased the fonts from 10 to 12 in the XML files. The upper image is in real size. It's enough for WQHD of 34". Waifu2x allows me to verify that everything is in place when I build window tools.

 

PRE_Advanced_Operations_waifu2x.png


Edited by Raul (ulneiz), 20 November 2018 - 18:36.

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#31 Mivo

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 15:30

Well, I have already purchased my new 34" monitor, the one I have mentioned above, the Samsung SJ55W, (34", 3440x1440 px, 21:9, VA). The screen measures 82'5x36'7 cm, with a framework of 1'1cm. I use Windows 10. I'll just say that I do not recommend Renoise (unmodified) for this screen size or higher.

 

The problem is the ultra-wide resolution more than the size, I feel. I mentioned it before you went ahead and bought it. With a 32" 2560x1440p display, you have a physically taller (more square) display and Renoise will look a little better. But yes, until (or rather: unless) Taktik releases a high-dpi update, it'll just not be optimal.

 

LG now discontinued the 32" 16:9 monitor I was looking at (LG 32GK850G-B ), which is unfortunate. I sort of talked myself into getting it this week, but now I don't know if I should still do that (some dealers have it still in stock) or wait for a possible successor model. The limiting factor is that I want 144hz or better and G-Sync, which gives me a total choice of one (and that's this discontinued model).


Edited by Mivo, 21 November 2018 - 15:30.


#32 Raul (ulneiz)

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 17:31

The problem is the ultra-wide resolution more than the size, I feel...

 

I do not want to confuse anyone with my comments. The problem is not the screen, it's Renoise. I think this 34" screen and with this resolution (1440 high) is perfect for this times (now), if you want a higher resolution, you will have to get a very powerful graphics card to move it in games and certain programs. that has 144HZ, make sure to find an appropriate graphic card, that can move you up to those 144Hz, otherwise it's like throwing money (144Hz screens are not cheap either).

 

From my point of view, you only have to look at 2 things, correctly match your future monitor with the graphics card that you are going to use. If Renoise has an "outdated" GUI, you just have to pray that Taktik returns after investing his time in Sononym.
 
For example, buying a 4K monitor of a few inches (less than 34 ") is crazy, so I opted for "something above 1080" and that does not require so much graphic power. Apart from composing I use my PC for everything, also to play.
 
On the other hand, G-Sync monitors are more expensive still (they include that additional technology). So the issue is to match it with the graphics card, and that the set returns the frames you need.
 
I do not care too much about to buy a "old" model, as long as it meets the requirements. Once you buy it, there is no turning back. The LG 32GK850G-B is a good model, but it's about € 700. I play in another league. I bought the second-hand graphic card, because I can not afford such luxuries.
 
Deep down I was looking for more workspace for multiple uses, and with Renoise, just missing a new version for high resolutions. With the "tricks" that I mentioned before I manage to work with my monitor of 34". If I had bought a 4K I would be sorry, by the way, the 21: 9 format is my best choice, in fact I recommend it for games, you will feel more "immersed inside" them.
 
I just want to summarize that the problem here is not the sizes of monitors or their resolutions or formats, but the software we use, such as Renoise. The software must adapt to these things, precisely because there is a variety of choice.
 
Another subject. I'm creating a light-colored Renoise skin that appering in the superior capture. I'm getting better results than with a dark skin. All this is causing me to review my latest tools to "make them compatible" with slightly larger fonts. From now on I will use the fonts two points above.
 
Look at the monitor well. I was going to buy an LG, and I ended up with a Samsung. There are new models that do not even appear in the catalogs of the brand in your language. Touch the find very well internet. For example, the monitor that I have purchased is not on the large surfaces. For some reason there they do not want to sell it. I would say that the stores want to get rid of the available stock before selling new models to avoid competing with the existent stock.
 
I have always thought that this of the LED monitors is a bit "scam". Most  monitors very slow, many are sold with dead pixels, the hertz are an excuse to raise the price very hight, the new technologies of graphics cards (G-Sync???) help to raise the price even more. In the end, monitors that should cost € 400 sell them for € 1000. And I've seen people spend € 1000 on a monitor and leave disappointed by light leaks, ghost effects and other problems.
 
Years ago, CRT monitors that looked luxurious were sold with more than 100Hz, and they were not worth much money. With the graphic cards and monitors there is a lot of marketing behind to keep prices high. And what's worse, they then sell the products with a 1 or 2 year warranty. That is the confidence that there is of the brands on their products.
 
Yes, it shows that for me, choosing a monitor may be the component from a PC more complicated to choose. Better to have a lot of patience and choose well.

Edited by Raul (ulneiz), 21 November 2018 - 17:40.

:excl: Development of my tools: Piano Roll EditorKangarooX120SamRenderPhraseTouch

 

:excl: My API wishlist R3.1 (updated 24 July 2017):

Spoiler

 

:excl: My Renoise 3.1 wishlist (updated 26 September 2017):

Spoiler

#33 joule

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Posted 21 November 2018 - 17:58

To be fair, running Renoise at 200% in 4k under windows is pretty much the same as running it normally in "full hd". Under that circumstance, HiDPI is more a matter of having it look more "modern". OK, maybe the pixel grid and some extra sharpness makes it only almost the same, but it's pretty much the same I would say.

 

But sure with 150% or 175%, it will of course scale awfully with bilinear/bicubic resampling (?).

 

I just wanted to point out that there's no real problem with Renoise in 4k @ 200% scaling (win10).