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64-Bit Cpu Has Nothing To Do With Audio Precision

#1 User is offline   Conner_Bw 

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 02:20 PM

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Referring to CPU architecture, 64-bit is almost always a good thing as it allows the use of practically unlimited RAM, and even assists 32-bit applications running under a 64-bit OS; so for example, Cubase users who use large sample libraries which need to loaded into RAM will certainly benefit from the use of both a 64-bit OS and the 64-bit version of the application. Even the 32-bit version of Cubase can benefit from being run in a 64-bit OS, something which many of us are doing (usually in cases where there's no 64-bit version of a favourite VST plugin, and the VSTBridge doesn't work).

In the case of audio resolution, when audio is passed between VST plugins, it is done only after each sample is converted to what's called a "floating point" number -- think of this as mapping e.g. a 16-bit (integer) sample as it might exist in an audio file to a value between 0 and 1, but with all possible values between 0 and 1 available, thus giving infinitely more resolution during processing. Only when the result is converted back to integer samples (e.g. 16-bit, 24-bit) for playback via an audio interface or for burning to disk is the resolution decreased.

So, in summary, as far as audio processing is concerned, it does not matter whether the application is compiled for 32-bit or 64-bit CPU architecture, the audio processing would be identical because this happens in the floating-point domain.


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ASIO 2.2 did not have increased audio resolution ("precision"). The article referred to [1] is talking about 64-bit in relation to CPU architecture, not audio resolution. The ASIO 2.2 SDK enabled developers to create versions of their existing drivers that would function properly on 64-bit operating systems. If your interface deliveres 24-bit audio with it's ASIO 2.0 driver on a 32-bit OS then it still delivers 24-bit audio with it's ASIO 2.2 driver on both 32-bit and 64-bit OSs.


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Let's approach it from a different angle: if I use native OS drivers (non-ASIO) and don't load any VST effects or instruments, will I hear a difference between the same project rendered on the 32-bit version of Cubase, and rendered on the 64-bit version?

No, because the versions differ only in terms of the OS/CPU architecture they were compiled for, and the internal processing is the same.


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ASIO output is "bit identical" or "bit transparent", that is, the bits sent to the sound card are identical to those of the original source


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A 32-bit CPU can process a Double Precision (64-Bit) Float. This is done with integrated floating point hardware, which is often based on 64-bit units of data. For example, the x86/x87 architecture has instructions capable of loading and storing 64-bit floating-point values in memory, yet the internal data and register format is 80 bits wide.


References:
[1] http://www.steinberg...2_standard.html
* http://www.steinberg...php?f=19&t=2278
* http://en.wikipedia....am_Input/Output
* http://en.wikipedia....odern_computers
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#2 User is offline   Djeroek 

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 02:25 PM

You could have just quoted Taktik, Conner :)

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There is no difference in audio processing on 64 or 32 bit hosts. Not for the internal FX and not for VSTs. All hosts use floating point math for audio, which is available in single and double resolutions on 32 AND 64 bit systems.
Its only about being able to address more memory - nothing more, nothing less. This of course is also important, but this does not result into better fidelity.


(http://www.renoise.c...post__p__226709 )
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#3 Guest_Jenoki_*

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 02:48 PM

I knew it!

I was getting so confused for a while :(

#4 User is offline   rhowaldt 

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 03:33 PM

i wonder where this post is coming from, all of a sudden...

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#5 Guest_Jenoki_*

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Posted 02 March 2011 - 03:46 PM

View Postrhowaldt, on 02 March 2011 - 03:33 PM, said:

i wonder where this post is coming from, all of a sudden...

http://www.renoise.c...ure-priorities/

#6 User is offline   kazakore 

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 09:10 AM

Wonder if he will believe me yet...
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#7 User is offline   atarix 

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 09:54 AM

Yesterday i showed this thread to some professional russian audio engineers (they all work on Protools hardware, Pyramix, Sadie and other exotic platforms), they confirmed this topic - cpu bit and os bit has nothing to do with audio precision.
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#8 User is offline   rhowaldt 

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Posted 03 March 2011 - 11:39 AM

View PostJenoki, on 02 March 2011 - 03:46 PM, said:


although i appreciate your helpful nature, i was being sarcastic :)

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#9 User is offline   TiLT 

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 01:24 PM

As a professional programmer, I can chime in and add my own voice to the chorus of people saying that the host has nothing to do with dynamic depth. I code 32-bit applications all the time, and there are absolutely NO (practical) limits regarding my use of 64-bit variables or data streams. Bit_Arts' confusion seems to come from not understanding that 64-bit data types can exist and be tossed around in a 32-bit OS, and that this has been possible for ages.

In other words, a 32-bit VST with 64-bit audio processing will both use 64-bit audio internally, in its communication with the host, and within the host itself (unless the host deliberately downscales the signal to a different bit rate, but that's a different topic entirely). I guess it's entirely possible that someone would be able to present to me an application that fails to qualify in that it somehow delivers a 32-bit signal to the host despite using 64-bit processing internally (on a 32-bit OS). That would be the result of a bug within the VST (or host application), or even a design decision. Whether or not the OS is 32- or 64-bit doesn't even factor into the equation and would have no effect on the process.

This post has been edited by TiLT: 04 March 2011 - 01:25 PM

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#10 User is offline   Drew Tweedy Music 

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 05:27 PM

so, question, if all of this is true, why don't my 32-bit versions of Renoise have the option to render in 64-bit wav?
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#11 Guest_Jenoki_*

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 05:28 PM

View PostDrew Tweedy Music, on 04 March 2011 - 05:27 PM, said:

so, question, if all of this is true, why don't my 32-bit versions of Renoise have the option to render in 64-bit wav?

:rolleyes:

#12 User is offline   Drew Tweedy Music 

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 05:33 PM

View PostJenoki, on 04 March 2011 - 05:28 PM, said:

:rolleyes:

A smiley face doesnt do a good job of answering my question...
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#13 User is offline   TiLT 

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 06:04 PM

View PostDrew Tweedy Music, on 04 March 2011 - 05:27 PM, said:

so, question, if all of this is true, why don't my 32-bit versions of Renoise have the option to render in 64-bit wav?


Why on Earth would you want to do that? I can't think of any reason why anyone would find such a feature useful.
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#14 User is offline   Drew Tweedy Music 

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 06:12 PM

View PostTiLT, on 04 March 2011 - 06:04 PM, said:

Why on Earth would you want to do that? I can't think of any reason why anyone would find such a feature useful.

not gona lie, im a massive audiophile. Ive mixed certain moggs down to 64 bit wav before and it was like cocaine in audio form. i know it would be completely useless in terms of serious prodction, as when you make it a 16 bit mp3 it gets rid of all the quality anyways, but for personal uses, it would be awesome.
I guess i can just render all the tracks in my song as separate files then render them together in 64-bit wav with Audacity or something.
Rough draft of my remix of Seven Nation Army - The White Stripes:
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A foray into a darker subgenre of dubstep and a rather popular track (for me):
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#15 User is offline   vV 

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 06:31 PM

View PostTiLT, on 04 March 2011 - 06:04 PM, said:

Why on Earth would you want to do that? I can't think of any reason why anyone would find such a feature useful.


Because he has the harddrive space and doesn't know anything else to do with it.
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#16 User is offline   kazakore 

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 06:37 PM

View PostvV, on 04 March 2011 - 06:31 PM, said:

Because he has the harddrive space and doesn't know anything else to do with it.


No, he has a pair of these mythical Golden Ears!
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#17 User is offline   Djeroek 

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 07:06 PM

ps2 = 128 bit > nintendo 64
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#18 User is offline   kazakore 

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 07:16 PM

Sony PS1 (32bit) > Atari Jaguar (64bit)
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#19 User is offline   fladd 

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 07:34 PM

View PostDrew Tweedy Music, on 04 March 2011 - 06:12 PM, said:

not gona lie, im a massive audiophile. Ive mixed certain moggs down to 64 bit wav before and it was like cocaine in audio form. i know it would be completely useless in terms of serious prodction, as when you make it a 16 bit mp3 it gets rid of all the quality anyways, but for personal uses, it would be awesome.
I guess i can just render all the tracks in my song as separate files then render them together in 64-bit wav with Audacity or something.


You cannot even tell the difference between listening to a 24bit vs a 32bit recording, so I don't see the point.
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#20 User is offline   vV 

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 07:41 PM

View Postkazakore, on 04 March 2011 - 07:16 PM, said:

Sony PS1 (32bit) > Atari Jaguar (64bit)


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View Postfladd, on 04 March 2011 - 07:34 PM, said:

You cannot even tell the difference between listening to a 24bit vs a 32bit recording, so I don't see the point.


There is no difference between 32-bit and 24 bit, if there is no clipping in either file. 32-bit = 24 bit with clipping info. (which means that destructive data is stored with a 32-bit file whereas a 24-bit file would require a new remix/remastering if it is rendered with clipping)
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#21 User is offline   fladd 

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 08:20 PM

View PostvV, on 04 March 2011 - 07:41 PM, said:

There is no difference between 32-bit and 24 bit, if there is no clipping in either file. 32-bit = 24 bit with clipping info. (which means that destructive data is stored with a 32-bit file whereas a 24-bit file would require a new remix/remastering if it is rendered with clipping)


Interesting, didn't know that. So what is the difference between 32bit and 64bit audio then?
Anyway, my point was that one is not able to hear the difference at all. I mean really no one will be able to tell in a proper double blind test!
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#22 User is offline   Drew Tweedy Music 

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 08:35 PM

View Postfladd, on 04 March 2011 - 08:20 PM, said:

Interesting, didn't know that. So what is the difference between 32bit and 64bit audio then?
Anyway, my point was that one is not able to hear the difference at all. I mean really no one will be able to tell in a proper double blind test!

I can tell the difference... i guess im the only one here that has an ear for quality.. jeeze...
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#23 User is offline   Drew Tweedy Music 

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 08:40 PM

View Postkazakore, on 04 March 2011 - 06:37 PM, said:

No, he has a pair of these mythical Golden Ears!

i think i do actually... i find it surprising that no one can tell the difference.. its just so obvious to me...
Rough draft of my remix of Seven Nation Army - The White Stripes:
Listen on Soundcloud.com
A foray into a darker subgenre of dubstep and a rather popular track (for me):
Listen on Soundcloud.com
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#24 User is offline   dblue 

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 09:08 PM

View PostDrew Tweedy Music, on 04 March 2011 - 08:40 PM, said:

i think i do actually... i find it surprising that no one can tell the difference.. its just so obvious to me...

Would you care to upload an example of something you've produced in 64-bit that demonstrates a clear/obvious difference to its 32-bit counterpart? I'm genuinely curious to try and hear what you're hearing, and would be very interested to analyse things more closely.
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#25 User is offline   Tarek-FM 

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Posted 04 March 2011 - 09:11 PM

View Postdblue, on 04 March 2011 - 09:08 PM, said:

Would you care to upload an example of something you've produced in 64-bit that demonstrates a clear/obvious difference to its 32-bit counterpart? I'm genuinely curious to try and hear what you're hearing, and would be very interested analyse things more closely.


I second that, I rarely see people back up these statements.
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